Kia Ora,

Some members started 'out' gay[well at least thinking they were gay and 'acting' the part]...But then all of a sudden they realised they were more than just  effeminate 'gay' males who like to wear women's clothing...

On the other hand it's also quite possible some deeply 'closeted' gay-people are so internally homophobic phobic due to social/family/friends/community pressure to conform to the norm  [especially if one happens to live in a religious community where homosexuality has been frown upon for many years] that the stigma of coming out 'gay' is too much to bear, they feel that being seen as a female would be more appropriate and more acceptable in a heteronormative society/community...So they go down the transition route including HRT and  'nip and tuck' only to find later down the track[when the mixture of euphoria    and confusion  fades], they had make an horrible mistake, their core psycho-sexual identity[the one that counts] was NOT female....

It can happen you know....................And I wouldn't wish it upon anybody......

So are you sure of who you are ?

Just some food for thought !

Metta Zenda

Hmmm... and what if trans lesbians are just heterosexual men in deep denial? 

In other words, in before the thread lock 

This reminds me of the allegations regarding homosexuals up to the 60s. That basically, they were lonely, couldn't meet anyone of the opposite sex and resorted to what they could.

They understand members of their own sex better because that is all they know.

That they, especially male homosexuals, will do it with anyone or anything. That they have a Freudian bottom fixation.

This was backed by claims that most people in prisons, mental hospitals and similar institutions have homosexual relations with each other. Though no actual evidence was offered. (I once asked if that also applied to men on ships in the navy. But then I always did live dangerously).

I was somewhat disturbed recently to note that Julie Bindel claims that being gay is a choice. Disturbed because she used it to justify her strange negativity toward men.

The question surely is, how much control should society exercise over other people's bodies?

Should society legislate on hair style, for example? Or clothes? Should tatoos be banned, or earings? Do any of us need to justify our decisions at all?

If I or anyone chooses a surgical procedure, on our own body, with the express intention of altering our relationship with the rest of society, do we seriously need to justify that?

To be quite blunt, I gave this male-on-male homosexual thing my first submissive try at about 11 or 12 and it left me as disinterested as it left me during a more recent situation.

It leaves me completely cold - does that mean I'm therefore in hyper-denial?

Good Lord, I was in denial about being of female brain gender, for very long and have SOME idea about denial in this area.

If I'm a ~ 70% lesbian and ~ 30% hetero female I actually think I'm in PERFECTLY good company with loads of natal females.
No need to further analyse this and get our knickers into yet one more twist.

Just thinking,
Axélle

Kia Ora Spacial,

I'm sorry if you took this the wrong way however it was not meant as a judgement question on whether or not a person as a right to alter their body...It's about whether a person is 'sure' about their feelings when doing so....

Denial due to pressure from outside sources can greatly impact a person's judgement, especially if they live in an environment where 'homosexuality' is still frowned upon, and from a young age they had/have been told it's sinful/wicked and one will burn in hell etc...Growing up in this type of environment[one where the heteronormative mind set is strongly promoted] is bound to have some impact upon an already 'confused/questioning' person's somewhat fragile mind...

The stigma attached to 'homosexuality' is alive and well even in this forum... No doubt there are some members who 'fear' being seen as 'gay' and not just it being a case of 'mistaken' identity ["oh you're just gay" so to speak and then not taking the person's 'true' trans identity seriously], but for those still questioning/unsure about their feelings/identity it's all the 'religious' baggage that could come with such an  allegation ..

Pretty's comment about this thread being 'lock' would be an indication of to what extent 'homosexuality' still sits uncomfortably with some...

My question is a simple 'straight' forward[excuse the pun] one...However it does require some 'deep' soul searching [if one believes in a soul that is]...

"Are you sure of who you are ?" [Or are you trying to conform to the 'heteronormative' norm ?]

Nothing more nothing less, so I hope the 'readers' don't take offence nor go on the defensive by attempting to read more into it...It's just to make the reader[whose still questioning their true feelings] think more deeply before committing to what many believe to be irreversible life changing procedures...

Being 'happy and content' is what life is all about !

Metta Zenda

So, yeah, being bi (or pan or whatever), my sexual orientation can't really be considered anything different with a change of genders.  I'd have to be in denial about being a little more straight-ish?

meh, in my opinion it is much easier in today's society to be a gay male than a transgender female.

So I think the argument that we are gay men in deep denial is a mute point as it is much easier (in terms of transitioning, medical process, social stigma) for someone to be gay than transgender.

Quote from: Annah on December 07, 2011, 12:29:54 PM
meh, in my opinion it is much easier in today's society to be a gay male than a transgender female.

So I think the argument that we are gay men in deep denial is a mute point as it is much easier (in terms of transitioning, medical process, social stigma) for someone to be gay than transgender.

Kia Ora Annah,

I'm not quite sure who is meant to be arguing this, I for one am not...But when you say in this day and age it's much easier to be 'gay', it's true for those living in a more liberal environment, but sadly not all environments are so liberal and from what I gather on this forum some members still live in a deeply homophobic community environment...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:17:46 PM
Kia Ora Spacial,

I'm sorry if you took this the wrong way however it was not meant as a judgement question on whether or not a person as a right to alter their body...It's about whether a person is 'sure' about their feelings when doing so....

Denial due to pressure from outside sources can greatly impact a person's judgement, especially if they live in an environment where 'homosexuality' is still frowned upon, and from a young age they had/have been told it's sinful/wicked and one will burn in hell etc...Growing up in this type of environment[one where the heteronormative mind set is strongly promoted] is bound to have some impact upon an already 'confused/questioning' person's somewhat fragile mind...

The stigma attached to 'homosexuality' is alive and well even in this forum... No doubt there are some members who 'fear' being seen as 'gay' and not just it being a case of 'mistaken' identity ["oh you're just gay" so to speak and then not taking the person's 'true' trans identity seriously], but for those still questioning/unsure about their feelings/identity it's all the 'religious' baggage that could come with such an  allegation ..

Pretty's comment about this thread being 'lock' would be an indication of to what extent 'homosexuality' still sits uncomfortably with some...

My question is a simple 'straight' forward[excuse the pun] one...However it does require some 'deep' soul searching [if one believes in a soul that is]...

"Are you sure of who you are ?" [Or are you trying to conform to the 'heteronormative' norm ?]

Nothing more nothing less, so I hope the 'readers' don't take offence nor go on the defensive by attempting to read more into it...It's just to make the reader[whose still questioning their true feelings] think more deeply before committing to what many believe to be irreversible life changing procedures...

Being 'happy and content' is what life is all about !

Metta Zenda

Sure, it can happen. An extreme but nonetheless good example of that, would be places such as Iran, where apparently 45% of those having SRS are not transsexual, but have SRS only to avoid Cultural discrimination and even death sentences.
I also believe that non-transsexual transitioners are not unusual at all in, for instance, Thailand, although actual regret, atleast seemingly, appears to be considerably more rare there than in the West World, although they ofcourse do exist there aswell. It would be illogical to believe otherwise.
Perhaps their Cultural filosophy is an important key factor in that aspect(For less regret), as they hold the Cultural view that if someone is feminine, than that person are- regardles of birth-assigned sex- naturally meant to be a woman, and if someone is masculine, than that is a man, regardless of biological gender.
So perhaps non-transsexual yet non-regretting Thai-transitioners holding this Cultural view simply have another concept of what a "True transsexual" are and what a male and a female are, hence resulting in few regretters statistically speaking, despite many non-transsexual transitioners.

Regarding regretters in the West World, their seem to be a good number of them in comparision, although one must also remember that the number that turn out happy, are in clear majority.

The reason for this differrence, if there truly are a difference, one can only speculate about, but it is not unlikely at all that Cultural view may be a big key factor here aswell, while another factor ofcourse indeniably are that there are nowadays a growing awareness of more variations in gender than only male and female, hence transitioners that transitioned years or decades ago because they were in actuality, perhaps, extreme ->-bleeped-<-s but transitioned because they could see no other way to express their constant feminity, or androgynes that transitioned for the same reason, but later on found out that now when it is considered okay to express gender identity in other ways too, they became depressed as they did not have that awareness from the start but now wish that they did. And so on.

I do know that you foremostly referred to transitioners in the West world that denies themselves regardless of legal pressures, but I decided to stretch the answer a bit more anyways.

Quote from: Bishounen on December 07, 2011, 12:46:13 PM


I do know that you foremostly referred to transitioners in the West world that denies themselves regardless of legal pressures, but I decided to stretch the answer a bit more anyways.

Kia Ora B,

No by all means stretch your answer as much as it will go  You make a good point when referring to Iran...

Metta Zenda    

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:17:46 PM
Pretty's comment about this thread being 'lock' would be an indication of to what extent 'homosexuality' still sits uncomfortably with some...

No, I was saying the thread would be locked because you are suggesting that maybe perfectly normal, straight transwomen are just gay males in denial.

If someone suggested that trans lesbians were just straight males everyone would freak out.

But then, straight transwomen are a small minority here

Quote from: pretty on December 07, 2011, 01:18:21 PM
No, I was saying the thread would be locked because you are suggesting that maybe perfectly normal, straight transwomen are just gay males in denial.

FYI, topics aren't locked because of people having differing opinions, they're usually locked because people have expressed them in an antagonistic or insulting manner towards others.

News Admin

Quote from: Zythyra on December 07, 2011, 01:24:35 PM
FYI, topics aren't locked because of people having differing opinions, they're usually locked because people have expressed them in an antagonistic or insulting manner towards others.

News Admin

You don't think asking transwomen if they're not really just a man in denial is antagonistic or insulting? When it is presented as a direct question to those people it's an insinuation, not an expression of opinion. I'm willing to bet the only reason anyone would put up with this thread is because everyone is lesbian and it doesn't apply to them so suddenly they don't mind.

But whatever lol, carry on 

Quote from: pretty on December 07, 2011, 01:18:21 PM
No, I was saying the thread would be locked because you are suggesting that maybe perfectly normal, straight transwomen are just gay males in denial.

If someone suggested that trans lesbians were just straight males everyone would freak out.

But then, straight transwomen are a small minority here

I do see your concern, however that was not the impression I personally got from her question, but rather, if there are some transitioners that in reality are gay people in denial.

Personally, I know for a fact that there are a good number of non-transsexual transitioners, but whether there are actual cis-gendered homosexuals that rather transition than live as gay, I find to be quite an interesting question.

I suppose that if there are people that refuse to entertain the idea that they might be transsexual and thus convinces themselves that they are "just gay", then there should also be people that are the other way around, too.

Although I tend to believe that they are not too many, if we are talking the West World, as I believe that you need to have atleast a transgendered corn within yourself to actually take the step to transition by own free will.

Hi Zenda.

You didn't need to apologise. I took no offense at your question and understood it well. I do tend to be rather to the point sometimes. I hate having to walk on glass when discussing. But certainly never intend to be rude.

I am sure there are some of those around. We'll likely never know how many, although I would hope its a very small minority. Also, I have a feeling most of them would never come out and say it or say they regret going through all that only to find out it was a huge mistake. 

But I don't think it should reflect on the community as a whole, although, it seems a few radical groups would like to think it does.

It does bring to mind an old "Taxi Cab Confessions" show on HBO that had an episode where a trans woman did claim that it was basically pushed on her by her parents and that she would have preferred just to be a flamboyant gay man rather than have the whole "sex-change" thing. Kind of made me sad for her.

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:55:25 AM
Kia Ora,

Some members started 'out' gay[well at least thinking they were gay and 'acting' the part]...But then all of a sudden they realised they were more than just  effeminate 'gay' males who like to wear women's clothing...

What are you trying to say about some of us here?

I see gay and woman as a relative thing. I am in essence a gay male and a transsexual woman. I can't deny what I was born, acknowledging it has helped me and the people around me become more mentally adjusted. I can't change what I was born, nor due to I expect society to accomadate what I wasn't.

I think a lot of transsexual woman may be gay men in deep denial. I mean they look up with other transsexual women... No Matter what anyone says, that person still has male experiences and male upbringing.

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:55:25 AM
Kia Ora,

Some members started 'out' gay[well at least thinking they were gay and 'acting' the part]...But then all of a sudden they realised they were more than just  effeminate 'gay' males who like to wear women's clothing...

On the other hand it's also quite possible some deeply 'closeted' gay-people are so internally homophobic phobic due to social/family/friends/community pressure to conform to the norm  [especially if one happens to live in a religious community where homosexuality has been frown upon for many years] that the stigma of coming out 'gay' is too much to bear, they feel that being seen as a female would be more appropriate and more acceptable in a heteronormative society/community...So they go down the transition route including HRT and  'nip and tuck' only to find later down the track[when the mixture of euphoria    and confusion  fades], they had make an horrible mistake, their core psycho-sexual identity[the one that counts] was NOT female....

It can happen you know....................And I wouldn't wish it upon anybody......

So are you sure of who you are ?

Just some food for thought !

Metta Zenda

All I know is that I have always been a female, and that I have always been sexually and emotionally attracted to females.

How about you ? Are you a closeted gay in deep denial ? Are you sure you know who you are ?

Quote from: pretty on December 07, 2011, 01:36:54 PM
You don't think asking transwomen if they're not really just a man in denial is antagonistic or insulting? When it is presented as a direct question to those people it's an insinuation, not an expression of opinion. I'm willing to bet the only reason anyone would put up with this thread is because everyone is lesbian and it doesn't apply to them so suddenly they don't mind.

But whatever lol, carry on 

you totally took the thread out of context. Zenda wasn't aimed at insulting anyone. Don't take it personally as she wasn't out to get you

I would agree that "some" Transwomen may be gay men in denial...however during the process of therapy, self-examination, etc (after all, going the trans route is a substantial change of life! More so than being gay, imho) one would at least consider that possibility.

If they didn't, I'd think they didn't look deep enough, whether or not they're happy with transition. I know in my case, I first looked at "well, maybe I'm gay and don't know it"...during that process (which included meeting with gay men-not for sex, but for conversation about me and orientation) is when I was told that I was "probably" trans, but definitely not gay.

(For the record, I consider myself bi--90% for women, 10% for men)