Quote from: Axélle on December 09, 2011, 12:56:12 PM
Don't think I like this sort of fascination...

Does THAT make me "...just a closeted gay in deep denial ?"

For it strikes me more tragic then fascinating, really.

Oh, I must be so binary...
Axélle

Kia Ora Axelle,

It sounds like he's quite happy with the out come...'Tragic' it would seem is your personal perception...

Does it make you just a closeted gay in deep denial ?"  Only you can know this for sure! After all, I'm not your shrink 

Metta Zenda

Kia Ora B,

Josef Kirchner reminds me a bit of Charles Kane, however he's going to[or has done by now] have an artificial penis constructed and as from what I gather reverted back to live a heterosexual life style...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Jen61 on December 09, 2011, 01:01:18 PM
One has to give him credit for having the courage to admit a huge mistake and take corrective action.

So as hard it is for me to conceived uncertainty about our gender identity, I guess he did feel like a male who thought he felt like a female just to discover he really is a male.

I wonder how frequent is this phenomena ?

Kia Ora Jen,

It's not that frequent, however every person entering into this journey of self discovery really does need to do some deep soul searching[I keep using the term soul even though I don't believe such a thing exists-but many here do-so that's why...]

Some who read this thread will be confident in who they are and just find some of the comments interesting - some will still be in denial regarding their sexual orientation and gender identity and perhaps be forced to think a little deeper - some will just find the whole topic uncomfortable perhaps a little too close to home [for comfort]...

However, whatever and how ever one chooses to take in the contents of this thread, the important thing is that it sets ones thoughts in motion...

Again I repeat, this thread is not meant/designed to offend nor judge...Just some seeds for food for thought...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on December 09, 2011, 01:48:54 PM
Kia Ora B,

Josef Kirchner reminds me a bit of Charles Kane, however he's going to[or has done by now] have an artificial penis constructed and as from what I gather reverted back to live a heterosexual life style...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html

Metta Zenda

Is "B" me? Maybe not, but I answer anyways.

I actually came to think about Charles/Samantha, too, because of Josef.
However, in my opinion, these two persons are, although having some things in common, very different as individuals.
Charles, now after his de-transition, has very unflattering opinions about trans-people and basically thinks they are all "deluded", only because he was, while Josef, although originally having said not so nice things either, nowadays instead have honestly apologized for this and realized how wrong the former opinions were. And not any least, he also do not want to restrict medical help for similar people but instead make it more easily avaible but without demands on comfirming to a specific Gender role.

It is a petty that several of those de-transitioners turning to the Media not seldomly holds opinions that are the exact opposite of Josef's, and that the person in question is often very bitter and angry and wants to blame someone. Sometimes even to the extreme and ban all types of Transgendered Surgery altogether, just because it was not the right thing for them, such as, for instance, Walt Hayer and Alan Finch. Alan Finch years later actually even sued the clinic that helped him, because they approved him(!) after that he faked the Gender-tests, as the first tests he did revealed him to be very masculine mentally, which was also the reason he was at first denied surgery. Hence, he later on faked them again, now giving the "right" answers and was this time approved for surgery.
After the surgery She was actually happy at first, or so he atleast claimed in an interview where she- Helen- said that this "she would never regret", only to make a complete turn-around years later and wanting to sue the whole World.
However he never got his case approved, although the Clinic was indeed forced to close down temporarily because of the suing.

Dramaqueens.

Quote from: Bishounen on December 09, 2011, 03:07:10 PM
Is "B" me? Maybe not, but I answer anyways.

I actually came to think about Charles/Samantha, too, because of Josef.
However, in my opinion, these two persons are, although having some things in common, very different as individuals.
Charles, now after his de-transition, has very unflattering opinions about trans-people and basically thinks they are all "deluded", only because he was, while Josef, although originally having said not so nice things either, nowadays instead have honestly apologized for this and realized how wrong the former opinions were. And not any least, he also do not want to restrict medical help for similar people but instead make it more easily avaible but without demands on comfirming to a specific Gender role.

It is a petty that several of those de-transitioners turning to the Media not seldomly holds opinions that are the exact opposite of Josef's, and that the person in question is often very bitter and angry and wants to blame someone. Sometimes even to the extreme and ban all types of Transgendered Surgery altogether, just because it was not the right thing for them, such as, for instance, Walt Hayer and Alan Finch. Alan Finch years later actually even sued the clinic that helped him, because they approved him(!) after that he faked the Gender-tests, as the first tests he did revealed him to be very masculine mentally, which was also the reason he was at first denied surgery. Hence, he later on faked them again, now giving the "right" answers and was this time approved for surgery.
After the surgery She was actually happy at first, or so he atleast claimed in an interview where she- Helen- said that this "she would never regret", only to make a complete turn-around years later and wanting to sue the whole World.
However he never got his case approved, although the Clinic was indeed forced to close down temporarily because of the suing.

Dramaqueens.

Kia Ora B,

You get another +1 for that short and sweet, straight to the point answer... "Dramaqueens" I love it, simple yet profoundly true ! 

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on December 09, 2011, 01:05:19 PM
Kia Ora Axelle,

It sounds like he's quite happy with the out come...'Tragic' it would seem is your personal perception...

Absolutely my personal perception, the only one I happen to have in any case, um :-)

Quote
Does it make you just a closeted gay in deep denial ?"  Only you can know this for sure! After all, I'm not your shrink 

Metta Zenda

My psychiatrist/shrink, eh? He didn't - and still doesn't know me... I said enough about that individual by now.

Also de-transitioning folks give me the heebie-jeebies... I would not consider them fascinating for one moment, but pretty messed up and the end of the day.

RHPS... "let's go to the lab and see what's on the slab..." stuff. Grrrrr

Just imagine what to go through with SRS, plus BA followed by mastectomy, and then switching from E back to T, and now by injection (balls gone, um) and now to go body building... HELP!
Just OTT...

Axélle

I find the detransitioning cases interesting, in a rather sad way. I imagine it must have been hard to admit to people that what they did was a mistake for them. Another thing I've noticed is that you cant generalize...Charles Kane seemed to transition (and detransition) because he hit a hard place in his life and felt rushed; Josef Kirchner seems to have only wanted a vagina, not to be a woman; there was another MtFtM person (forget the name) who was pressured to by their church and now often misses living as a woman.

Quote from: Caseyy on December 10, 2011, 01:22:38 PM
I find the detransitioning cases interesting, in a rather sad way. I imagine it must have been hard to admit to people that what they did was a mistake for them. Another thing I've noticed is that you cant generalize...Charles Kane seemed to transition (and detransition) because he hit a hard place in his life and felt rushed; Josef Kirchner seems to have only wanted a vagina, not to be a woman; there was another MtFtM person (forget the name) who was pressured to by their church and now often misses living as a woman.

Kia Ora Casey,

The bottom link mentions this...However the other two are an interesting read...

http://tgmentalhealth.com/category/post-transition/ 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu23.htm

http://transcendgender.com/2008/08/30/msnbcs-born-in-the-wrong-body-a-change-of-heart/

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Axélle on December 10, 2011, 07:41:01 AM

Also de-transitioning folks give me the heebie-jeebies... I would not consider them fascinating for one moment, but pretty messed up and the end of the day.

Axélle

Kia Ora Axelle,

Just out of interest, why do they make 'you' feel uncomfortable ? You are not like them, so in theory what they do with their bodies should not impact on the peace of mind you say you have found... One might have some 'concern' for their well being=empathy, but why would/should the 'de-transitioner' generate uncomfortable feelings in others when one is comfortable in ones own skin [with oneself]?

Metta Zenda

Honestly, I think the whole MTFTM thing proves one thing: people should be able to do what they want to begin with, and no one would have regrets. That being said, even regrets sometimes can be a positive experience, as obviously that guy made a lot of money being a woman and learned from the experience. I mean, it's not healthy to play around with your body like it's play-doh (I know that from two botched rhinoplasty procedures), but at the end of the day, you only live once - if you absolutely know you need to change, and only undergo the change with the most professional doctors around. Things are now possible in this world that never have been achievable across the face of the planet. The MTFTM guy on the last page? If he didn't transition to female when he did, he may have committed suicide like literally millions of men across the planet's history. However, he was allowed to at least transition in some sort of way, he's now proud he has a vagina, and he seems to enjoy transitioning back into a man. What's there really to hate on?

I'm sort of the opposite myself, I'd love to have a feminine face, and as long as no one saw my penis nor cared that I had it, I probably wouldn't have a huge deal if I never underwent SRS. The honest truth is I'd never dream of using my penis in a sexual scenario, but until I achieve a feminine face, I would actually feel horrible with a vagina (I'd feel like even more a monster, looking like a man but having a surgery-made vagina - I need entirely pass a girl first.) so I'm only looking as far into the future as my emotions allow. SRS is something for me that'll happen when every other step in my transition is entirely comfortable and happy, and because no man that I socialize with wants to stick his penis in the vagina of a man who looks haggard, I'm not to worried about it until I become pretty. And even then, it's no rush, I'm never going to push myself into something I merely guess on, it's either going to 100% be my heart's desire or I won't do it. Being pretty and "female" face-value is something that I've dreamed of all my life, looking natural in pretty female clothes, being an actress, being a romantic, cute partner.....but having a female genitalia that a couple people on earth will ever see? It's never been a huge deal to me, I've never had a bad situation arise because of my genitalia. So I'm beating what's actually caused my dysphoria first, and seeing what happens after that.

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this, sorry if so. Just offers a different perspective/some extra info on the detransitioners mentioned here. Changes things significantly.

http://www.transchristians.org/ex-trans

Quote from: Caseyy on December 12, 2011, 02:45:22 AM
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this, sorry if so. Just offers a different perspective/some extra info on the detransitioners mentioned here. Changes things significantly.

http://www.transchristians.org/ex-trans

Oh, Transgender Christians is a good site.
And indeed an interesting perspective, too.
But, how do you mean that it changes the info?

You mean the fact that Josef is listed in it?

If so, then the reason that Josef had his deal with the organisation Jonah, started when he stumbled over it when he had already realized that he had done a mistake, and got aware of them when watching a TV-interview with its frontman Jerry Leach while at the work as a nurse. At the time, She, then Judy, thought that what Jerry said made alot of sense and got sucked in.
It was thanks to them, by the way, that s/he could have his/her Masectomy and immediately afterwards started living as a man again, which was also the reason that he was used as a "brilliant example" by the organisation and Jerry that one truly could successfully go back to living as the birth-assigned Sex.
However to make a longer story shorter, he was as said used by Jerry for a while and also as a spokesperson for him, but quite soon realized that the opinions Jerry propagated was the very opposite of the opinions Josef had on the matter, hence leading up to the big split where Josef finally called Jerry a "Fetishtic ->-bleeped-<- that took things too far and couldn't even solve his own problems" and asked him to never use his name again in their organisition.

He have however made clear that his de-transition was all on his own initiative and would have happened sooner or later regardless of if he had crossed roads with the organisation, and he also points out that he is truly genuinly happy nowadays in his newfound identity.

That was it, really. 

As for Alan Finch, on the other hand, it seems very possible that religion may have had an actual play in his de-transition, as he said that he was "encouraged" by a woman he met to live as a man again, but as there is no actual proof that such was the case, one can only speculate.

But you got to admit that things doesn't quite add up when you read the linked old interview with him as Helen from 1989, and then compairs it to what he says nowadays.
The interview from 1989: http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=178898&stc=1&d=1211356198

Years later: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/15/1094927634658.html

Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 02:42:26 PM
Kia Ora Axelle,

Just out of interest, why do they make 'you' feel uncomfortable ? You are not like them, so in theory what they do with their bodies should not impact on the peace of mind you say you have found... One might have some 'concern' for their well being=empathy, but why would/should the 'de-transitioner' generate uncomfortable feelings in others when one is comfortable in ones own skin [with oneself]?

Metta Zenda

Zenda,
some people make one feel uncomfortable, - I'm sure there be some for you too?

They go in some fashion against our 'inner grain' and we all have some 'inner grain' call it believe-system.
Our believe system actually makes for a large part for what we are, how we see ourselves, right?

With NO believe-system we have no personality i.e. are like babies, be a good comparison. You'd simply with no opinion neither of yourself (you as a person) nor others for that matter. So in this case all is equal so long you not cold or hungry, etc. (I actually has some short memory of that state)

Now, empathy is NOT always of a 'detached' quality and it is the very empathy that makes one feel uncomfortable - like watching a dancer to trip, stumble, or even fall during a ballet or some such.

If I see a person that spend all their heart and soul to transition - and from looks of it, transition well, - and then de-transition - it wants to make me cry. For my empathy makes me feel VERY sad for that person, and the PAIN it must have been, to go through it all. That to me spells TRAGIC.

Without empathy one might feel it be all one big stupid joke, or a comedy of errors.

Maybe that will explain it better when I say it feels tragic to me --- as a matter of fact, it could happen to all of us - since we can not know the future.

Kia Ora,
Axélle

The thing about Josef, yeah, but there was something about another guy named Walt Heyer. He was diagnosed with Dissociative Identity Disorder, which could explain why he had cross-gender feelings but was not trans. Some of transchristians is just speculation but when it comes to individuals the info seems accurate. They have a few detransitioners on there who retransitioned, but no one updated about that, just kept using them as faces for the detransition movement.

That old interview with Alan as Helen is interesting. I don't remember seeing that before. A part of me wonders if he detransitioned because people were not accepting (lost two partners over it, and then the third wanted him to be a man again). I hear a lot of the detransitioners saying that they were not "real" men/women, that their biological sex is their true self, but does that come from their own feelings and identity or from a lifetime of rejection and not fitting in? I suppose we'll never really know.

Got a good point you got - we all are socially challenged, some more some less. Falling in love with a person, and what do we do? Try to PLEASE them.
De-transitioning can easily become such a thing to PLEASE a beloved or would-be beloved.

It's like so many other things we would do like 'bend over backwards' for a person we are strongly attracted to, in lust with, in love with.

It's also why I said - we can't know the future - it might just turn out 'tragic' as well. Tragic as in a Greek tragedy play :-)

Axélle

Quote from: Axélle on December 12, 2011, 10:42:15 PM
Got a good point you got - we all are socially challenged, some more some less. Falling in love with a person, and what do we do? Try to PLEASE them.
De-transitioning can easily become such a thing to PLEASE a beloved or would-be beloved.

It's like so many other things we would do like 'bend over backwards' for a person we are strongly attracted to, in lust with, in love with.

It's also why I said - we can't know the future - it might just turn out 'tragic' as well. Tragic as in a Greek tragedy play :-)

Axélle

Kia Ora Axelle,

True...Love can be a blessing and burden at the same time...Love turns to hate, hate turns to love...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:55:25 AM

On the other hand it's also quite possible some deeply 'closeted' gay-people are so internally homophobic phobic due to social/family/friends/community pressure to conform to the norm  [especially if one happens to live in a religious community where homosexuality has been frown upon for many years] that the stigma of coming out 'gay' is too much to bear, they feel that being seen as a female would be more appropriate and more acceptable in a heteronormative society/community...So they go down the transition route including HRT and  'nip and tuck' only to find later down the track[when the mixture of euphoria    and confusion  fades], they had make an horrible mistake, their core psycho-sexual identity[the one that counts] was NOT female....

~Gay men don't get sex changes.

Quote from: Axélle on December 07, 2011, 12:06:41 PM

If I'm a ~ 70% lesbian and ~ 30% hetero female I actually think I'm in PERFECTLY good company with loads of natal females.
No need to further analyse this and get our knickers into yet one more twist.

Just thinking,
Axélle

I lean more towards women, too; most of the time. It just sucks that there is no good label that adequately sums up the nuances of my feelings.

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:17:46 PM
The stigma attached to 'homosexuality' is alive and well even in this forum... No doubt there are some members who 'fear' being seen as 'gay' and not just it being a case of 'mistaken' identity ["oh you're just gay" so to speak and then not taking the person's 'true' trans identity seriously], but for those still questioning/unsure about their feelings/identity it's all the 'religious' baggage that could come with such an  allegation ..

~Personally, I'd have no problem being gay (I only have a problem with the 'male' anything part); I actually identified as a lesbian for a while.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 07, 2011, 10:18:57 PM
It doesn't really disguise anything...If anything, it makes a homosexual male GAYER.

To quote my friend Adam, "Hun, you were so gay you became a girl!!"

Wow, that is offensive! But for every gay male that will tell you that, I'm fairly certain there's at least five more who would state with some annoyance that gay men and transsexual women have nothing in common, and are not even remotely the same.

Quote from: Axélle on December 10, 2011, 07:41:01 AM
Absolutely my personal perception, the only one I happen to have in any case, um :-)

Also de-transitioning folks give me the heebie-jeebies... I would not consider them fascinating for one moment, but pretty messed up and the end of the day.

RHPS... "let's go to the lab and see what's on the slab..." stuff. Grrrrr

Just imagine what to go through with SRS, plus BA followed by mastectomy, and then switching from E back to T, and now by injection (balls gone, um) and now to go body building... HELP!
Just OTT...

Axélle

I think I'm of the same opinion. It is a sad thing.

Quote from: Akashiya Moka on December 16, 2011, 08:32:05 AM
~Gay men don't get sex changes.

I lean more towards women, too; most of the time. It just sucks that there is no good label that adequately sums up the nuances of my feelings.

~Personally, I'd have no problem being gay (I only have a problem with the 'male' anything part); I actually identified as a lesbian for a while.

When I was a teen I dated a Danish Girl (in Aarhus) who was Bi. being a teenanger from a rather conservative culture I was flabbergasted by the notion that one can be sexually attracted to both males and females. her response to my inquire was a puzzled look and "I just recognize needs in peoples, and the warmth that they can provided me in return"

Her words have stay with me for all this years, and may sum up your feelings,

Quote from: Akashiya Moka on December 16, 2011, 08:32:05 AM
~Gay men don't get sex changes.

Kia Ora A M,

And where did you get this snippet of information from ?

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on December 16, 2011, 06:06:42 PM
Kia Ora A M,

And where did you get this snippet of information from ?

Metta Zenda

I may be simplifying but:

1) If you are a male homosexual and you get a vagina and you still feel you are a male homosexual, then why to get the vagina in the first place. The whole reason of getting a vagina is to align the body with the mind, female body with female gender, right ?

or

2) If you are a male homosexual and get a vagina and you feel you are a female, then you were never a male homosexual but a heterosexual transsexual