Quote from: Sweet Blue Girl on December 10, 2011, 07:48:59 PM
It's a pity, this sometimes, often, too personal arguing could end easily that way...hope jens understands many are not interested in a continuous fight towards searches of definitions, but more in some healty tip to share to move on, to go forward in the everyday battle. Also because I suspect Jen wants to make some nazi-trans-purity-doctrine that wouldn't include me or many of us.

You can throw doctors behind any dsyphoric disorder. It still doesnt' change that someone is like the rest of us...Born with a penis between their legs. Of course, she's an individual and she's not for the greater good. Just her own...her motivations for that? I don't know or care.

Of course, someones definition of how everyone should be is how they first consider themself or not....

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 07:49:18 PM
I don't think transsexualism is a genetic trait. But is rather learned. Using my ex's child as an example...her dad my ex is a homosexual man and her mom is our former fruitfly and is a bisexual female raised her to be a girl, if she decides later she wants to be more like her dad... she might eventually use the concept of her dad, who is a masculine gay man to justify her GID or transsexualism.

If a child was raised by genderless robots, would it be male or female? Gender is another concept. A personalized concept of self. Some people fall into society's view of gender, others don't conform. it doesn't make either right or wrong.

The last ten year has seen an explosion on our understanding of the neurological basis of TS. There are several genes who are critical in making the BST, which is a small nucleus in the brain, either male or female. The data seems to indicate that this center (BST) is mostly responsible for your gender identity. Mutations to a number of genes seems to prevent BST from becoming masculine in some XY fetuses. Mutations to one of this genes, aromatase gene, was found in TS people, and the TS BTS was identical to those of a XX-female.

There is also emerging evidence that some forms of GID do run in families.

Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 07:59:47 PM
The last ten year has seen an explosion on our understanding of the neurological basis of TS. There are several genes who are critical in making the BST, which is a small nucleus in the brain, either male or female. The data seems to indicate that this center (BST) is mostly responsible for your gender identity. Mutations to a number of genes seems to prevent BST from becoming masculine in some XY fetuses. Mutations to one of this genes, aromatase gene, was found in TS people, and the TS BTS was identical to those of a XX-female.

There is also emerging evidence that some forms of GID do run in families.

You can justify the brain/gene theories any way you want. A person's sex is usually determined by the part between their legs, which also determines secondary sexual characteristics.

I was raised by two Lez women with NO FATHER..... That probably had to have influenced my transition in some subconcious way.

Quote from: Sweet Blue Girl on December 10, 2011, 07:48:59 PM
It's a pity, this sometimes, often, too personal arguing could end easily that way...hope jens understands many are not interested in a continuous fight towards searches of definitions, but more in some healty tip to share to move on, to go forward in the everyday battle. Also because I suspect Jen wants to make some nazi-trans-purity-doctrine that wouldn't include me or many of us.
As for me i fall into the chuck palanuck sthereotype without fight but with much pain, and i assure you I came here because i want to move on, seeing people  that have yet walked on similar steps ( for as much similar can be two different people's steps ) and that living in an unlucky little country i can't meet in normal life, and maybe even sharing what I have passed yet for the ones that will came after me...
I find that this arguing is the main activity and I don't like it... Even dating tips are better than that... Also if i would prefeer just hugs and cheers or funny things in this moment in wich nothing is more far from me than a date.

I took the warning that i got from the forum moderator very serious, so i have been very careful as not to make my post very personal.

Mahsa and I disagree over some issues like the present issue, Mahsa contention is that TS is acquired trait, I contend that it is a biological/gentic condition.

I am respectfully presenting my options in the matter. No offense intended

HolyMother, this is SO slipping into relativist territory now...

Meaning that following this discourse a transsexual woman can just be -anything- so long one claims it for oneself?

If the 'environment' of e.g. a dog (not a bitch mind you) would serve well - and he could speak - he too might just be a transsexual female.

Well done,
Axélle

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 08:03:30 PM
You can justify the brain/gene theories any way you want. A person's sex is usually determined by the part between their legs, which also determines secondary sexual characteristics.

I was raised by two Lez women with NO FATHER..... That probably had to have influenced my transition in some subconcious way.

Wait a minute darling, i thought we were talking about gender identity, not about sex, as we have discussed before they have nothing to do with each other

I just want to invite you to admit that apart from knowing if someone is Ts and showing your verbal skills this post doesn't add nothing to the community!

Yes it's genetic it's science!
But, no if someone feels woman and don't want srs we can't discriminate, because she just knows what it's best for her at that time!
Yes drag queens are not ts although some start to express femininity in that way so yes some dq are Ts so again we shouldn't discriminate.
Basically we shouldn't discriminate whatsoever.
Definitions after definitions we don't go nowhere.
If for Masha femininity is staying like she wants, and believing in what she believes, also the wrong parts, and she gets a decent life from it, cheers!
I know what is femininity for me, and from what i know of science, and I'ma a f*** engineer, and still the definitions don't make me happy a bit more than I am. Instead living in a different city and environmental conditions probably would! Basically Masha is wrong about definitions of Ts but knows well the conditions that help a Ts to live better or maybe easier.
Living in an ethero contest is tougher, all the definitions don't help that much.

Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 08:14:46 PM
Wait a minute darling, i thought we were talking about gender identity, not about sex, as we have discussed before they have nothing to do with each other

Look I'm with you and plenty others too - but recall: "behind all such assumptions are just some doctors that find it is their 'thing' to make such claims."

Lower stratum of the BSTc area variations between male and female are just brain farts of these folks - according to some, that is.

So, if it suits you, you just start to feel like a female and so you are a transsexual woman, easy peacy.

Some arguments are just not worth to pursue, like "we never landed on the moon..." in deed "I" didn't.
Also I had SRS because I'm into body modifications? Hey, why NOT?!

Axélle

Quote from: Axélle on December 10, 2011, 08:28:58 PM
Look I'm with you and plenty others too - but recall: "behind all such assumptions are just some doctors that find it is their 'thing' to make such claims."

Lower stratum of the BSTc area variations between male and female are just brain farts of these folks - according to some, that is.

So, if it suits you, you just start to feel like a female and so you are a transsexual woman, easy peacy.

Some arguments are just not worth to pursue, like "we never landed on the moon..." in deed "I" didn't.
Also I had SRS because I'm into body modifications? Hey, why NOT?!

Axélle

Under normal circumstances I will let your post go unresponded, but the issues at hand is to important to be summarly dismisse because soembody just "farted the other way"

There are many peer-review publicantions that indicated that there is not only the the BST, but also the Putmane, IH3, and cingula, and others, that have been ascribed as having a role in gender identity. 

By chosing to ignore what it is so you will chose to live in a place near reality

I have come to discuss the ongoing hostilities like the rest of the great warriors.

I'm not sure if this is the case but there seems to be a confusion between parties and their uses of different words and phrases. For example; Masha seems use transsexual as an encompassing term for people whom which differ from their assigned gender/sex from drags to full MtFs, Jen on the other hand sees transsexual as the doctors text book definition. So Jen takes it that Masha was to imply that TS is a learned trait and not biological she took it to mean like full blown GID is something you learn.

If I'm wrong, well then I'm with Jen on this one, there's no way this soul crushing dysphoria is something I learnt growing up.

Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 08:42:55 PM
Under normal circumstances I will let your post go unresponded, but the issues at hand is to important to be summarly dismisse because soembody just "farted the other way"

There are many peer-review publicantions that indicated that there is not only the the BST, but also the Putmane, IH3, and cingula, and others, that have been ascribed as having a role in gender identity. 

By chosing to ignore what it is so you will chose to live in a place near reality

* Under normal circumstances I [would] let your post go unresponded [too]... *

But well said, and thank you for helping to ground my neo-vj in some more reality.
Or as one might say... what ever blows your hair back :-)

Just try and loosen up a little it be more 'feminine' also...
Axélle

Quote from: Nurse With Wound on December 10, 2011, 08:44:36 PM
I have come to discuss the ongoing hostilities like the rest of the great warriors.

I'm not sure if this is the case but there seems to be a confusion between parties and their uses of different words and phrases. For example; Masha seems use transsexual as an encompassing term for people whom which differ from their assigned gender/sex from drags to full MtFs, Jen on the other hand sees transsexual as the doctors text book definition. So Jen takes it that Masha was to imply that TS is a learned trait and not biological she took it to mean like full blown GID is something you learn.

If I'm wrong, well then I'm with Jen on this one, there's no way this soul crushing dysphoria is something I learnt growing up.

Well said

TV/CDS, drags do not consider themselves transexuals

And you know that how?  Talk to all of them?  How many of those people do you know IRL?  Right.

Turns out - and we've seen it time and time again - that lots of people who think they are TS are not.  And I'm sure that many who are either try to deny it, or refuse the label because they don't want to be put in a group of people that includes people like you.  I know several people who did drag, or cross-dressed and eventually transitioned.  Hell the old joke was: What's the difference between a CD and a TS?  Ten years. 

Everyone is on a road to somewhere.  Few know the real destination, but the road goes on anyway.

As for the Nurture/Nature debate I'll leave it to all you internet PhDs to solve an argument that has been going on in biology and behavioral science for over a hundred year now.  But, in the end, you're going to find (as they did) that it's a combination of the two.  You may be biologically predisposed, but there has to be the right kind of environment conditions for it to come about.  And environmental conditions have everything to do with how you handle it once it emerges.

  What is a transsexual woman?

  A genetic male who's gender identity is female.

  What causes it?

  It's believed to be a mental disorder causes by an increase in hormones or prenatal meds during pregnancy, but really nobody knows.

  Gift or a curse?

  That's for you to decide. 

Quote from: Rukia87xo on December 10, 2011, 09:45:18 PM
  What is a transsexual woman?

  A genetic male who's gender identity is female.

  What causes it?

  It's believed to be a mental disorder causes by an increase in hormones or prenatal meds during pregnancy, but really nobody knows.

  Gift or a curse?

  That's for you to decide. 

Nothing to add.
  Joelene

Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2011, 09:37:50 PM
TV/CDS, drags do not consider themselves transexuals

And you know that how?  Talk to all of them?  How many of those people do you know IRL?  Right.

I've known all variations since I was younger. I was a gay male in SF....I've met all types.

Many people aren't used to the fact that a lot of transsexual women used to be drag queens. Rumor has it, Carmen Carrera from RuPaul's drag Race is transitioning...

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 10:38:05 PM
I've known all variations since I was younger. I was a gay male in SF....I've met all types.

Many people aren't used to the fact that a lot of transsexual women used to be drag queens. Rumor has it, Carmen Carrera from RuPaul's drag Race is transitioning...

Kia Ora Elle,

So after 50 odd posts are you any closer to finding out what a transsexual woman is ?

Metta Zenda

Well Mahsa thinks we learn GID by learning (nurture)... and she didn't.
All the other findings are crock, as in bad science.

So then it  seems she's just a bad learner for GID, or a slow developer?

Doing all this girl stuff just for fun only and $$$, is like what TVs are all about.
That's all I know about on that subject, and as Tekla pointed out also.

Wondering who is now 'trannier than thou'?
Axélle

Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 07:50:25 PM
I beg to disagree, TV/CDS, drags do not consider themselves transexuals.

Amanda Leopore, Jessica Savano, Candis Cayne, Calpurnia Addams, the list goes on...several transwomen are also transgender performers like me.

Do you have something against a gay man being feminine though? I mean you did used to present as a straight man with six kids, and our old selves exist as one in our true selves. Many straight men and lesbians are bothered by the display of gay male femininity...the no hold bars fabulousity and bitchiness which scares them and their traditional gender values. I know my Mom and Aunt were bothered that their "son" could do makeup and hair instead of playing sports and dating girls. Then there's the drag queen aspect... My parents had friends who were...But it was not allowed in the house.

But drag queens. It's no different than a crossdresser...they just do it fabulous and for show.... I've hung out with several drag queens and they are better friends than some of my GG friends. I wanted to make over my lover who passed on, and he was so beautiful. He was 5'3", part Turkish, with the most adorable face. His ex was a DQ as well...

They seem more like women in my eyes.... I'd be a total ladydragonMom if I wasn't tethered by my boyfriend. Since I've learned more in my transition from drag queens, gay men, and my fellow transgender performers(Not DQ) then I will ever learn from Susan Stryker or Kate Borestein or some older transitioners who seem to want to educate on me what a "woman" is. Because really, if we're going by who's more of a "woman". I think KukiSuki has us all beat.

Quote from: Axélle on December 11, 2011, 12:30:25 AM
Well Mahsa thinks we learn GID by learning (nurture)... and she didn't.
All the other findings are crock, as in bad science.

So then it  seems she's just a bad learner for GID, or a slow developer?

Doing all this girl stuff just for fun only and $$$, is like what TVs are all about.
That's all I know about on that subject, and as Tekla pointed out also.

Wondering who is now 'trannier than thou'?
Axélle

Going on my previous assumptions being wrong, if this is a case of "my trans experience is the only real one" then, well.

If Masha feels that she became TS through nurture over nature then perhaps she did, and it would be silly to deny that TG performers are any less TG than other trans people I'm sure many transgirls start out their adventure as drags queens, transvestites, etc, perhaps it is a way of release from GID such as how others deal with GID in a different ways, I myself unable to put on a manly facade or and lacking the confidence to come out ended up reclusing into a shell so no one would see the real me. However that does not mean being TS is learned behavior, as me and I'm sure many other trans people never had any interaction with any sort of gender bending people thoughout our lives where it really does seem to be a case of being "born this way". And this of course does not mean those of us who never had any sort of performance life style are any more trans than people who have.

In the end whether there is definitive proof whether it is nature or nurture or a combination people are still going to argue about it and there will still be trans girls and boys.