A corrupt church's followers should abandon it. But they get what they really want out of the church: a pat on the head and assurance that if they just keep the money flowing and the obedience blind, they'll never have to worry about their souls' fate and get to reap the societal rewards for being a "good Christian". It's sickening, the Apostles warned of these kinds of churches and worshipers, and they're an irrevocable reality. As long as corrupt preachers and lazy worshipers continue to exist, there will be corrupt churches. It's lazy spirituality coupled with a perfectly human desire for community. They don't want to question the group (lest they be ejected) so they stop thinking.

In essence, the LGBT is getting the same crap we've always gotten: the rest of the kids on the schoolyard beat us up and laugh at us so as to blend into the background and not be targeted themselves. The best among them sit silently on the sidelines and pray not to be noticed by the group while secretly weeping for the victims. It's an all too human thing to want to fit in, and in order to fit in there has to be an "other" that everyone who fits in hates. In a just society the "other" would bring their fate upon themselves; society in reality is not so just. We did nothing to deserve being the scapegoat other than be few enough in number to be convenient targets.

I may be foolish, but I believe in humanity. I believe that if I reason with these people, if I appeal to their sense of fairness, of justice, of morality, that maybe they'll come to realize what they're doing and stop. So far I've a success rate of zero. But I'll keep believing in people.

To answer the original question the reason churches are against gay marriage is because of certain scriptures which have more importance placed upon them than others.

Leviticus 20:13
[13] If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

The above scripture is the one I see used most. It appears to be pretty straight forward and easy for a straight person to see.
There some the straight folk don't see however. These are just as bad because the word says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Below is an example.

Proverbs 11:1
[1] A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

If a person uses scripture to judge or condemn another such as a gay person but excludes scripture which shows straight people in need of a Saviour as well it is out of balance. That is an abomination too.

I used one scripture to show where gay sex is listed as an abomination and one scripture to show where one's thoughts, actions or words being out of balance is an abomination. Hence, my answer is balanced and no abomination.

But, there are many things that are an abomination. Gay folk are just easy for some to pick on so they can feel good about themselves I reckon.

The problem with following scripture is twofold:

One, interpretation is a huge problem.  One of the reasons I lost interest in the religion I was born into was hearing so many versions of the same story from people who were supposed to know what they were talking about: priests and nuns.  It was clear to me the Bible, as one's sole guidance, had long ago lost its value in modern society.  And that realization came before I even entered high school.

The second problem is the individual reader's fault - quoting the Bible out of context.  But it's done all the time and there's never a shortage of people will fall in lock step with the bible thumper.  Lemmings looking for a leader.

But the reason churches are against gay marriage is first and foremost about money.  Once the tide changes and gay marriage is generally accepted, AND CHURCHES THAT DON'T ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE BEGIN TO LOSE DONATIONS, then the churches will change their tune and find some way they can re-interpret the Bible so they can say, "We've re-read the Scripture and we realized God loves and accept us all for who we are."

"We've re-read the Scripture and we realized God loves and accept us all for who we are, so you can give us money again."

FIFY

While there are (too many) churches that are seeking money, I think assuming that is the main motivation (or would motivate the majority) is building a characterature of Christianity that just isn't accurate.

I've been in many churches - large ones, small ones, anti-gay, affirming, etc.  I can only think of one or two that would change their beliefs for money, at least of the dozen or so I was a part of.

The majority sincerely believe what they are saying, as do their members.  They sincerely believe gays are going to go to hell, and truly think that they can "save" gays by helping them de-gay themselves. This is not done to get money from gays, but rather out of the idea that they are morally right and gays are morally wrong.  Couple this with some self-hatred by some members, the combination of politics and religion by well-known preachers, and a distrust of academia - these things all factor together.  Money is a relatiely minor part of it - seriously.

Most churches would rather close the doors than change what they see as the word of God.  They'll give up the money (seriously).  Now, some churches would change thier beliefs for money - absolutely - but they are not the majority of churches or believers.  If money could solve this problem, it would have been solved years ago.

People who care about equality and Christian love need to focus on the real issues - not a strawman.

Here's a blog I wrote about this

The time has come......so it was said. I think we all try to get along with people as best we can. Although that's never much been a priority in my life to which I think some of my family will testify, I've always tried to give people the benefit of the doubt. We all have our ways of finding our way and we many times take a wrong turn or just storm off in determined wrongness only to have to circle back eventually. And so in the humanity of us all, I try (or at least I hope I try) to give people wiggle room and to bite my lip when I can for the sake of keeping things from boiling over into unnecessary hurtful incidents. And so when it comes to the rights of homosexuals in this country, because so many of my dearest friends are religious people I've tried to understand. But recently I came to a sad realization, that what I was doing in a sense of neutrality was actually taking a side, that old line, that sometimes 'not saying something IS saying something." or "All that it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." And so although I stand to lose a few friends for this I guess I have to make a stand because my silence equals complicity.


Most people who know me know that I have always advocated for the rights of homosexuals to marry. Way way back, even before it became the cause of the day. To me the story was simple. It was always about family. Since I had a broken family, I began to rely on my friends as my family. And so I built up a strange menagerie of people (mostly feeling the love after a couple of Long Island Iced Teas) that I "loved" and quite a few of them were gay guys who just did me the honor of hanging with me in a night club without pawing at me like a gorilla in heat. It was great fun dancing the night away at the Hippo. I saw a lot of casual flings and a few very serious partners.

But I eventually moved on from this life on the edge and settled down. After building my own family by getting married and having kids, it dawned on me that this society doesn't allow for the same sort of moving on for the gay people we know. In some strange way we seem to expect the homosexual male in society to dance the night a way in a disco, then pause long enough to make us lots of fabulous fashions and decorate up a storm. Then faster than you can do two snaps up it's fast forward until you are now some sage old man wandering through the streets in a Sting song. You can be a Queen, a diva, and you can be fabulous.........but uh, the guys making thanksgiving while the family comes over and the kids run around the table chasing the dog........not so much.

For me what is being denied homosexuals by resisting the idea of marriage, is not keeping the sanctity of marriage sacred for the straight people who want the right to get drunk in Vegas and what the helling it up to the altar......or for jailed murderers to legally be allowed conjugal visits........because that's what marriage often amounts to in the straight world.......oh that and marrying teenagers.....oh and divorce.......lots of it............but I digress..........

But what is really at stake here is the right to build a legally recognized family. That reality that says these are my children and this is my spouse. This is my family. And to be able to say that without feeling like you are kidding yourself or putting on some sort of bravado to stick it to the straight man. No, just to be able to be a family and have it count in the world and matter to you rather than it counting to you and mattering in the world but in the wrong way.

I've had a lot of round about discussions with friends who have pulled this new tactic of insidiously sliding the conversation into a no man's land of "Can't we all just get along?"........ "It's not MY point of view," they say " and I have nothing against homosexuals at all.........but I'm sorry God made it clear that they are sinners, and I'm not saying one sin is worse than the other, we're all sinners.......but acting on homosexual impulses is a sin in the eyes of God so I'm sorry I don't know the ways of God and who am I to judge God. I just can't support sin."

And of course, that's perfectly agreeable, that's perfectly fine isn't it? They aren't really condemning the homosexual, and if they really feel this strongly about their faith this is just one of the bad things stuck in there that they are trying to be compassionate about right?


Except I don't believe it. The bible, if you are using that, has a whole plethora of God policies, like not wearing gold, not setting up a pagan Christmas tree, not bowing down to engraven images........." There's plenty to choose from and yet for some reason, being gay which is mentioned just a few times is up there like a hot priority in the bible. Now if people do follow the rest of it that's one thing. But if you don't, and yet you concern yourself with stopping homosexuals from getting married, well then I guess you aren't rendering to Caesar what belongs to Caesar now, are you? The whole point of Romans 13 was that the secular world is the secular world and not a concern of those devoted to a spiritual world. In other words, you live in the world and so you must deal with it, but it is not your concern.

So why are so many people concerning themselves with it?


I see homosexuals as not "THEM" over "THERE" but as part of the world in which we all live. I consider these people my brothers and sisters across the board. And like any cranky prejudiced person there are things about this community that annoy me and that I don't like. However, they are members of the greater family, our family, family planet earth. You know........the people? And bigotry is bigotry no matter how finely you try to split the gay hair and make it not so, that you are oppressing people based on your own personal preference. We are all in this together in the world and people should never ever have to ask to get the right to build a family.

The gay hair gets split again with that sentiment as people pour out the accusations of pedophiles wanting to marry children and beastophiles wanting to marry donkeys and philophiles wanting to marry file cabinets and such things. And of course at this point the gay hair has already been split so finely that it just doesn't hold up any more.

But if I have to lose a few friends in the process, I guess that's what is going to come of this. I consider it oppressive and wrong and just downright cruel to deny two consenting loving adults the right to build a family together based on the objections of a 2000 year old book, that you don't seem to follow to a tee anyway. At the end of the day, that gay hair has been split away. And I'd rather lose a friend than support oppression based on ignorance.


PS Yes I know that Matthew 22 is Caesar.......check out Romans 13, you might be surprised.

It merits mention that my statement that they get to stay as long as they "keep the money flowing" was secondary to everything else I said. The main concern of these churches is obedience, not donations. As long as you don't say anything that the group doesn't like (such as equating homosexuals to actual human beings), whether you donate or not is secondary (though appreciated).

I didn't really create a strawman. I just framed my argument to resemble one unintentionally.

Since I grew up in a Catholic environment, went to Catholic schools through college and had a lot of exposure to how the Catholic Church works...

There is no doubt in my mind that the Catholic Church would bend and even break "the rules" if they saw their financial survival in jeopardy.  They have proven that time and again.  The most notorious proof is the pedophile priest scandal. 

And there are plenty other churches that would fall in lock step if they saw donations drying up.

Former and first director of the Christian Coalition, Ralph Reed, teamed up with recently released from prison Jack Abramoff to protect the then existing casinos in Alabama.  Reed said he could access "3,000 pastors and 90,000 religious conservative households" in Alabama, as well as "the Alabama Christian Coalition, the Alabama Family Alliance, the Alabama Eagle Forum, [and] the Christian Family Association." Reed would require a $20,000 per month retainer for his services.  Abramoff jumped.

The gist of this whole thing is these guys saw Christians as easy prey.  As long as you presented things to them as being for or against God's will, they will support you, and donate.  And they did.  This is why predators who want wealth and power prey on the religious, especially the Christians.  Because of their blind faith, they are easy pickings and what they pick is money out of your pockets.  Take that ability away, and watch everything change.     

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on October 30, 2011, 11:20:15 PM
So said Pebbles to the Christian transsexual. Dear, I realize that you had a bad experience on that forum, but it sounds to me like you just happened upon a gathering ground for a bunch of fundamentalists with their heads firmly up their...well...you know

Oh no no no... My views are formed a combination of factors I only visited them because I had suffered first hand the horrors of christian bigotry.

I didn't understand why they hated me so much. So I sought them out and yes I've been mistreated on those forums too. Their fundimental moral fiber accociated with their faith in the bible, makes them either outright violent and abusive or if not an active participent at the very least gleefully complacent and a distant facilitator at witnessing these occurances never acknowledging fault in their interpretations and quick to play the victim when you cry in pain. I've seen it in my life first hand and online that forum and others like it...

If they were just isolated indivduals then I ask why are we still treated as 2nd and 3rd class citizens? why did my assailants get away without any justice ever wrought upon them?

I know the answer... Because... They are the majority pepole empathize with THEM. Their christian values whitch are the values of a bigot.
My gift from my encounters with them is this seething prejudiced hateful anger... Ultimately it's the only thing I trust to protect me from begin made into there victim once more. I'd rather become twisted and spiteful than be made into that again.

Pebbles, in order to explain what is happening I have to first explain the concepts of diffuse and concentrated interests. I'll also set the frame of reference in the USA, which I suspect you're from.

Diffuse Interest -> A person (or group) who only marginally cares about the issue at hand, if at all.
Concentrated Interest -> A person (or group) who cares deeply for the issue at hand, and devotes serious amounts of resources to pursuit of an end.

Diffuse interests have to be given an incentive to be driven to participate in collective action. Concentrated interests will act regardless because their passion on the issue itself is their incentive to act.

The reason transpeople are relegated to 2nd or even 3rd class status (especially in the US) is because most people have so little exposure to transsexuals aside from the constant badmouthing from a very concentrated interest group (politically active fundamentalist Christians). A diffuse interest group (your typical Christian) is given an incentive (threats of pedophilia, rape, drug use, and an increased general crime rate) from a hostile concentrated interest group to work against us. So they frequently do, because they don't often hear differently about us and don't have to care about the facts since it's not them that's being targeted. Considering that most Americans are Christian (if only in name), two plus two leads to four. You end up with undereducated diffuse interests saying things that the concentrated interests told them because it's all they know.

But you can't just run around screaming that people are pedophiles and/or rapists and expect to last very long. Eventually you'll slip up and upset the diffuse interest or some evidence will come along to refute you if you're lying. Even McCarthy only lasted so long before people started wanting to see his list of Communist conspirators and became tired of his excuses not to reveal it. Something more permanent is needed, in this case religion and science. The concentrated interests (fundamentalist Christians) frame their arguments with Moralism and recruit pseudo-scientific agencies to "conduct research" [create propaganda] so that their arguments are more lasting. The idea is to make the argument sound convincing and simultaneously so far above most peoples' heads that they can't be bothered to try to examine the argument in detail because they don't believe they'd understand it anyway (see: Sophistry).

A diffuse interest confronted with a simple, radical claim will look into the claim for validity because this doesn't require much effort or time. A diffuse interest confronted with a complicated, radical claim will be too lazy or disinterested to examine the particulars because it becomes a daunting and time consuming task, and besides which they're not actually shooting themselves in the foot if they place restrictions anyway. In the case of anti-trans legislation, Joe Six-Pack votes to keep us out of bathrooms and unmarried because he doesn't have to face the consequences of these laws and thus doesn't care enough to sort the truth from the bull->-bleeped-<-.

I believe a certain genocidal maniac can aptly summarize: "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it."

Think about it! It wasn't until the House Committee on Un-American Activities conducted mass subpoena of random civilians (not just celebrities and political activists) that people actually started to give a damn that McCarthy and his ilk were violating essentially the entire Bill of Rights and started asking questions. Same situation with us transfolk, only there's basically nothing the members of the Religious Right can do to shock your disinterested Christians into questioning them since the disinterested Christians won't suddenly be disallowed from entering public restrooms or have their marriages invalidated arbitrarily by referendum and then constitutionally banned.

Your typical Christian falls into the category "disinterested follower" on trans issues. Their tunes (unlike those of the fundamentalists) will change upon seeing transpeople suffering in person. Here in Denmark Socialdemokraterne is filled with such Christians.

People and power do not like change. It's a basic simple concept. Yet, change is inevitable in every aspect of our lives.

wow. These points are all amazing. This is so true. The way people behave cheating on each other and betraying each other has become socially acceptable. Why on earth is gay marriage such an issue?

Quote from: fionabell on December 14, 2011, 04:06:42 AM
wow. These points are all amazing. This is so true. The way people behave cheating on each other and betraying each other has become socially acceptable. Why on earth is gay marriage such an issue?

Gays, guns and God.  If you want to push emotional hot buttons, you have only to start there, at least in the USA.  We are so conditioned to believe the spin that has been placed on making any changes in the status quo many believe it will be the end of civilized society if we mess with it.

You hear about a 'godless society" but I have yet to read about any time in history where there was actually a godless society.  I know many christians have made the claim pagans lived in a godless society but that is definitely not true.  They had gods, just not the same ones christians had.  A godless society would be one controlled by atheists and I don't know of any societies like that, at least not any that had any real power.

But the fear attached to living in a godless society is enough to cause many to lose their common sense. 

It's the same with guns here.  "If we outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns."  Gun control is seen as a very bad thing yet if you go back to the wild west, what did you have?  Gun proponents will say, "Hey, at least back then if someone drew a gun on you he'd have to think twice that maybe you're faster on the draw and he may end up dead."  Great!  A gun-toting, trigger-happy society.

Of course gays will usher in the end of morality and the degradation of society.  "If we allow gay marriage, the next thing they will be asking for is to marry their dog."  Yeah, good point!  Yet people actually believe that kind of stuff.

I say let's put an end to ignorance.  That could cure a lot of people of a lot of phobias.

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 15, 2011, 02:10:04 PM
Gays, guns and God.  If you want to push emotional hot buttons, you have only to start there, at least in the USA.  We are so conditioned to believe the spin that has been placed on making any changes in the status quo many believe it will be the end of civilized society if we mess with it.

You hear about a 'godless society" but I have yet to read about any time in history where there was actually a godless society.  I know many christians have made the claim pagans lived in a godless society but that is definitely not true.  They had gods, just not the same ones christians had.  A godless society would be one controlled by atheists and I don't know of any societies like that, at least not any that had any real power.

But the fear attached to living in a godless society is enough to cause many to lose their common sense. 

It's the same with guns here.  "If we outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns."  Gun control is seen as a very bad thing yet if you go back to the wild west, what did you have?  Gun proponents will say, "Hey, at least back then if someone drew a gun on you he'd have to think twice that maybe you're faster on the draw and he may end up dead."  Great!  A gun-toting, trigger-happy society.

Of course gays will usher in the end of morality and the degradation of society.  "If we allow gay marriage, the next thing they will be asking for is to marry their dog."  Yeah, good point!  Yet people actually believe that kind of stuff.

I say let's put an end to ignorance.  That could cure a lot of people of a lot of phobias.

It is said that "an armed society is a polite society."

Personally, I have no problem with any sort of relationship between consenting adults.  As far a church or faith-based marriage is concerned, churches will continue to sanction those marriages that fall within the tenets of their faith.

It makes no sense to me for government to regulate marriage.  I don't see it as a essential function of government.  But, if government regulates, or "allows," same-sex marriage, why not different forms of marriage such as polyamory, polyandry, or polygamy?

Quote from: Sailor_Saturn on November 20, 2011, 04:15:36 AM
Even McCarthy only lasted so long before people started wanting to see his list of Communist conspirators and became tired of his excuses not to reveal it.

Think about it! It wasn't until the House Committee on Un-American Activities conducted mass subpoena of random civilians (not just celebrities and political activists) that people actually started to give a damn that McCarthy and his ilk were violating essentially the entire Bill of Rights and started asking questions.

And don't forget the effect the media, or I should say one person in the media had on the downfall of Sen. Joe McCarthy....

Edward R. Murrow...  "Good Night and Good Luck"!

But to the topic in question, Government is involved in the business of marriage to collect taxes! And think about it, families help drive the economy. Now correct me if I'm wrong...but the reason the Mormon Church banned polygamy was because it was required for them in order to become a state.

It will probably take another generation for the Churches to accept Gay Marriage and even us in general. Though they are trying now, its still a forced effort, and one that often provokes the thought of "we have to do something for/or about you people..." As I told a Pastor(who is actually Gay ), "Do what? What are going to do for me?". My feeling is stop freaking out about us, you don't have to do anything, just accept us!

As for the prior comments on change, it takes time, but once in motion it doesn't stop.

What's wrong with owning guns? Whats wrong with being Trans or Gay? What's wrong with believing  in God, or not?

Quote from: Jamie D on December 15, 2011, 03:03:36 PM
It is said that "an armed society is a polite society."

And as long as you are well armed and people know you are proficient in the use of those arms and are unafraid to use them, people will be polite to you.

But that proficiency with arms always invites a challenge.  Therefore the disruption of politeness is assured.

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 15, 2011, 07:19:44 PM
And as long as you are well armed and people know you are proficient in the use of those arms and are unafraid to use them, people will be polite to you.

But that proficiency with arms always invites a challenge.  Therefore the disruption of politeness is assured.

Self defense is a fundamental natural right.  Owning weapons is a deterrent to the unlawful use of force against me, my family, my property, or my community.  If every criminal knew that his/her intended victim was armed, able, and willing to resist, there would be fewer violent crimes.  It is a fundamental facet of nature that predators tend to prey on the weak and defenseless.

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 15, 2011, 07:19:44 PM
And as long as you are well armed and people know you are proficient in the use of those arms and are unafraid to use them, people will be polite to you.

But that proficiency with arms always invites a challenge.  Therefore the disruption of politeness is assured.

Quote from: Jamie D on December 15, 2011, 10:58:24 PM
Self defense is a fundamental natural right.  Owning weapons is a deterrent to the unlawful use of force against me, my family, my property, or my community.  If every criminal knew that his/her intended victim was armed, able, and willing to resist, there would be fewer violent crimes.  It is a fundamental facet of nature that predators tend to prey on the weak and defenseless.

ISN"T THE TOPIC  "WHY ARE CHURCHES AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE"? SO WHY ALL THE GOD AND GUNS STUFF, TOS 15. SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO IGNORE OTHERS.

Quote from: SandraJane on December 16, 2011, 05:49:19 AM


ISN"T THE TOPIC  "WHY ARE CHURCHES AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE"? SO WHY ALL THE GOD AND GUNS STUFF, TOS 15. SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO IGNORE OTHERS.

You're right.  The topic did drift and I apologize.

However, there is a linkage.  From the short time I have been visiting ans posting here, it is apparent that many of the contributors intensely dislike political conservatives and conservative ideals.  So, as in a post, above, "Gays, guns, and God" are linked.

A person who opposes same-sex marriage does not necessarily oppose gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and/or transsexuals.

A person who is religious does not necessarily hate the GLBT community.

A person who exercises and protect his/her natural, constitutional, and civil rights is not hurting anyone else.

I believe some of the most basic human rights are "the right of conscience," "the right to do what I want (so long as I am not harming another)", "and the right to be me."

Other people drift too...

But why are Churches against Gay Marriages? We have Conservatives on this site also, and not everyone that owns a gun, supports Gay/same sex marriage, and believes in God, and is a Christian is Conservative...but a lot are