Hurt, furious, but I still love him..... He´s starting his MTF transition. He opened himself up to me after being together for 4 1/2 years. I knew he was very "girly", knew about the abuse he had when he was a kid, and being a tolerant person, I told him to go for it no matter what and that I will be by his side. I have been away from him since mid November inanother country and last  Saturday when we spoke on the phone, I noticed he was hiding something from me. Saturday he started HRT..... I was furious, shocked and hurt because he really could have told me. Afterall, we were still planing on getting married and staying together. But I did want to have a week of "goodbye" before he turns into a she. I think that would have been a way to mourn the old him and then start anew.
The other thing that kills me is that he had already started transitioning 10 years ago and stopped when his then girlfriend got pregnant. She and I are 100% sure that he will stop again right in he middle of it, since we think he is not mentally fit for all of this. He´s had bad cases of depression (because of his internal him/her fights and for other reasons) but I can´t imagine that he´s mentally stabil to really go through the hard times that lay ahead of him. He is a very sensitive person and although he loves me to pieces, he won´t accept why I am hurt and furious. I have read up alot about MTFs and SOs, but I feel very alone, not having anyone to talk to about this. My mom would die of a heartattack if she knew....If anybody has gone through a similar situation please contact me because I am really lost and confuzzled now.
Thank you for this forum, I still have to work my way through it 

I forgot to mention that we are actually still in love, absolute soulmates and unable to be apart from each othr for longer periods....

hello CisinLove and welcome,

I'm glad you are looking for help and found this site. I thought I'd greet you and make few observations.

You seem to be in a bit of a shock. You are saying you are hurt and furious but at the same time you say you told your SO to go for the transition no matter what.
Is it the lack of trust on your SO side that you are hurt about or the lack of control that you hoped for during your partner's transition.

You said she is very sensitive and you know about the abuse she had to endure as a child. That alone might make someone careful and secretive as she might be fearing consequences for her actions. Traumas age very slowly if at all!
You said something about having a week for saying goodbye before your partner turns into a she. No one transitions within a week. The goodbye or the grieving part last much longer! I am fearing you have wrong set of expectations from the process of transition. 

Starting transition and than stopping because of her partner staying pregnant is not that unusual or strange at all, but rather very thoughtful and caring!
Transition is very self centered process and no woman who is expecting would appreciate that kind of state of her partners mind. So it is only reasonable to abrupt the transition.
I myself waited until my daughter turned year and a half to start the transition. The priorities were first my pregnant partner, then came the baby and after everyone established themselves within the new family I found it reasonable to focus on my transition.


Your partners ex and you seem to have teamed up somewhat to decide if your partner is ready or not or strong enough to make it through at this time.
Think about how strong her need is that even 10 years later she still needs to transition and her desires haven't changed.
Making assumptions about someones state of mind and predicting the failure is not very helpful.
Your partner is hopefully in a good counselors hands who is going to help her with the transition. You will hopefully also engage in counseling sessions!
Also if you really stand so strongly behind her and her transition would you reassure her that you will be there to catch her if she slips out during her transition as appose to predicting her failure?

And last but not least your partner, being so sensitive, would probably benefit form being referred to as she. The confirmation of acceptance from her closest ones is probably half the battle. If she has you, her friends and family going supportively through the transition along side with her she will have it so much easier. Then it is not only her transition but yours and everyone else's who she is involved with.

Transition is also at times unpredictable too. I had full support from my partner but after I started physically changing she realized she can't get adjusted to being romantically involved with a woman. At the same time my sexual orientation expanded to the point where I'd prefer to be together with a man. Something I wasn't aware before I started the transition. So we planned the marriage, the baby and we still love each other as much as we ever did but we are now sisters. Not lovers, but family. So you have to be prepared for anything and figure out if you are ready to go through it!

I understand I may have sounded a bit harsh but it was not my intention to be hurtful. I just wanted to bring some greater awareness to some statements you made in your post.
It is very admirable that you made it to this forum and are seeking answers and help. A lot of SO just take off. You are rather an exception!

Thank you Envie. Yes I may have seemed a bit drastic in my wording, sorry about that. I know my partner won´t transition in a week, but I have set that time-line for myself - everybody ticks in a different way - it would be my way of saying goodbye to the old "him" and then opening a new page for our relationship. We both still don´t have the slightest idea if we will be old and grey together (ooops we´re getting grey already  ) or if he will be able to go all the way, which he still isn´t quite sure of himself. I say "he" on purpose because he only started HRT last Saturday and is not planning on wearing female clothes until he moves into another area, which can take another 2-3 months.
L. is a very caring and loving person, he just gets very over-eager, rushes into things without really getting into the nitty-gritty of the pros and cons. That´s what makes me afraid, that he might regret it and it would be too late to turn back. With that, I mean the hormonal effects may affect him and trigger depression again for instance. And the area he lives in is not very LGBT friendly and where counseling is concerned, it´s at zero. His GP (her first TG patient btw) is the only one he really talks to.
I try talking to him about it all, naturally the distance (as in mileage) between us at the moment is surely not helping. But I am stuck for another month in another country and feel very helpless.
Weirdly enough, when I think about the last 1/2 year we spent together, it was more a sister/bestest friend relationship.
Shopping for girly stuff has always been one of our favourite pasttimes, I showed him how to varnish his nails and was almost successful in keeping him from mowing his eyebrows. Like I said, almost successful LOL. He definitely needs me as a stylist... pink leggings on a 54 year old are an absolute no-no! (Although I must admit he´s got FAB legs most women would kill to have!)
I want to really help him turn into a great transwoman as good as I can, but still, getting over the fact that he started without telling me, still hurts like hell. He just can´t see it, but still wants me by his side. It´s ruined my trust in a way, is that understandable?

Thanks again and I will work on myself as well 

Sorry to butt in.. But there's something I need to say..

'He' is a she.. Always has been, always will be - irrespective of when she may have 'come out', started HRT or even started dressing as a woman..  Calling her 'he' or 'him' is disrespectful..

Envie, thank you for the amazing long reply. As a cis partner of a trans woman I agree with pretty much everything you said!

CisInLove, I wanted to send lots of moral support to you. As your partner (yes, "she") transitions you will have your own separate issues. It's very VERY tricky separating the two. Cherish the love you have for each other and listen to what the love says and take deep breaths?

In my case my partner just told me that she may not be comfortable having sex again before the surgery, or for the first year or so after it. Do I wish I had known (beforehand) that New Years' Eve was going to be "the last time"? Yes. Am I hanging in there anyway? Yes, her happiness is way more important to me (plus I have a Hitachi). Keep in mind that to have one's body be SO disastrously wrong is a very painful condition and our partners have never known what it's like to feel even comfortable in their bodies let alone awesome.

Some days my sweetheart manages to put one foot in front of the other [1] only by very fiercely not thinking about it. And then she has to pee! We have NO idea. This seriously messes with their heads.

It might end up that you decide not to stay with your partner sexually, but you could continue to support her as a friend and express your love that way. (My partner's ex is her strongest and longest supporter.) I would say definitely don't get married until you decide whether you want to marry her with her wearing a dress. Because it sounds like she will go for the dress sooner or later [2]. Deep breaths! Keep writing here, as well, and best of luck to you both.

Maddie

[1] magnificently I might add - she's out at work where she is a spokesperson for full trans inclusion and lots of other good things *crushes*
[2] oh and my partner doesn't like when people say she's brave - "I have no choice, it's either this or go down on a shotgun." Took me a few minutes to work out what she meant (I think she was trying not to scare me). The suicide rate among people with UNTREATED gender identity disorder is quite high.

Quote from: CisInLove on January 12, 2012, 09:12:13 PM
Thank you Envie. Yes I may have seemed a bit drastic in my wording, sorry about that. I know my partner won´t transition in a week, but I have set that time-line for myself - everybody ticks in a different way - it would be my way of saying goodbye to the old "him" and then opening a new page for our relationship. We both still don´t have the slightest idea if we will be old and grey together (ooops we´re getting grey already  ) or if he will be able to go all the way, which he still isn´t quite sure of himself. I say "he" on purpose because he only started HRT last Saturday and is not planning on wearing female clothes until he moves into another area, which can take another 2-3 months.
L. is a very caring and loving person, he just gets very over-eager, rushes into things without really getting into the nitty-gritty of the pros and cons. That´s what makes me afraid, that he might regret it and it would be too late to turn back. With that, I mean the hormonal effects may affect him and trigger depression again for instance. And the area he lives in is not very LGBT friendly and where counseling is concerned, it´s at zero. His GP (her first TG patient btw) is the only one he really talks to.
I try talking to him about it all, naturally the distance (as in mileage) between us at the moment is surely not helping. But I am stuck for another month in another country and feel very helpless.
Weirdly enough, when I think about the last 1/2 year we spent together, it was more a sister/bestest friend relationship.
Shopping for girly stuff has always been one of our favourite pasttimes, I showed him how to varnish his nails and was almost successful in keeping him from mowing his eyebrows. Like I said, almost successful LOL. He definitely needs me as a stylist... pink leggings on a 54 year old are an absolute no-no! (Although I must admit he´s got FAB legs most women would kill to have!)
I want to really help him turn into a great transwoman as good as I can, but still, getting over the fact that he started without telling me, still hurts like hell. He just can´t see it, but still wants me by his side. It´s ruined my trust in a way, is that understandable?

Thanks again and I will work on myself as well 

Hi CisInLove,

I believe I said a whole a lot in response to your first post and since it is not a right or wrong discussion I will leave it at that.

Yes, a lot of trans women go through the "second puberty" and find themselves wanting to do things they wished to do when they were 12.
So yeah, pink leggings is not a good Idea on an 54 year old and it is good that you have the sensibility to help your partner with the fashion and style.
Also you seem to have a bit of humor which is another great way to go through the transition. The humor will get you sometimes through when everything else fails.

I do understand your disappointment regarding your partner starting the HRT without telling you. There is obviously a communication issue between you two.
Is that a trust issue or communication issue you will have to find out. Does your partner really feel supported by you? I'm am not saying you are not supporting her but she might have trust issues. The childhood abuse or something else, no one but she can tell. Counseling pops again in my mind...

I understand that referring to your partner as "she" might be dangerous if she is not passing or not dressing in public and living in an unsafe area but here on this forum you are and she is safe.
I strongly encourage you to practice this as if someone refers repeatedly to someone else with a pronoun opposite to the gender identity of the person in question is being seen as an insult. Two people besides me have reminded you here in your thread so please give it a try, it will help you to be seen as a dedicated supporter and potentially open more positive and helpful conversations!
best,

Envie

I've said it before on other threads and I'll repeat it now.  Communication is KEY.  It also takes time.  The transitioner has had more time to deal with their problems that their spouses.  We're moving quickly now, but we're out to everyone and so its now full speed ahead.  But we started glacially slowly.  Your SO starting HRT as anything other than just a trial (and even really then but.....) was a MAJOR breach of trust and she does own you an explanation. 

What works for us is to let my wife drive the speed.  I will admit this FFS was slight accelerated, but it was one of these perfect arrangement of opportunities, that might not have happened again.  Even then I did NOT commit until we had talked about it for days.  When she drives it puts you in the position of accept or leave.  If you drive then you have time to get comfortable or not.  It doesn't always work, but if you take it slow then you KNOW why it didn't work and won't always be wondering if you or she could have made it.

BTW by drive I don't mean you plan out her transition, but rather she tell you the next step she is considering and you decide when you are ready for that.  Not she asks and you said not for two years, but rather she says this is where I am going next and you just process on that until you are ready to make a decision or not.  Even just the process of getting ready for that decision can take days/weeks/months.

And before a transitioner says that is unfair, remember we are the ones asking for the changes. 

I'll see if my wife can drop by this thread and she what she can add.  I'm up ultra early because I'm still recovering from FFS/BA, so they all all still asleep.  I also know she wanted to get to town before the roads iced again so it may be tomorrow.   Normally we'd all go but my stamina and reaction time is way off and I shouldn't be driving or wandering across stores today.

Hi Jeneva! Oooh Dr Z - my partner and I look at that web site and dream! Sending lots of energy for your recovery (and the safety of all of you on those icy roads).

CisInLove - Jeneva has caught this key point from what you wrote:

>It's ruined my trust in a way, is that understandable?

It IS critical to be able to trust each other, YES. And right now you feel you've lost that. So regardless of transition issues it's important that you two do whatever you need to get that trust back and understand how to communicate better when the next one of these issues comes up. I'm sad that I don't have good ideas about HOW to get this back (I'm more of a geek than a psychology person) but I want to agree with you that it IS important.

Maddie (SO)

Thank you all for your responses! Jeneva, I wish you a fast recovery and hope the pain doesn´t last too long. I had a breast reduction (from E to C cup) years back and that was veryyyyyy ouchy. And what happened? The babes grew a cup larger again. Typical....
As of yesterday, my partner and I aren´t talking. Looks like I´ve hit the bottom of the sh*thole. She´s my soulmate, my best ever friend and I still love her terribly. She said in her last mail that she will never stop loving me either and I am devastated. I wish I could jump the next plane and fly over to her, but unfortunately that´s impossible at the moment. I am even having very dark thoughts concerning myself and unfortunately no one to speak to. My heart is broken. I shall keep you posted... Hugs

I got to go run some errands so i'll be brief CisInLove,

hang in there, not all is lost. Where there are strong emotions involved there are sometimes also strong reactions!
It might be even good that you just can't see each other immediately. Some times it is good to have a bit of time to sort out all the emotions that are going through both of you.
And spare saying to each other some hurtful things in an instant reaction that you might regret later on.
Transition is a turbulent ride at times and communication and trust issues aren't making it easier.
"Non Violent Communication" terms pops in my mind. There is a good book about it, here is the link to the Wikipedia site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication
you might want to check it out and use your time away to prepare yourself for the reconciliation or perhaps, by chance, introduce it to your partner as well.
Hang in there!

I'm so very sorry everything is so terrible for both of you right now.  Maybe after she has a chance to think things through for a few days, she'll have a change of heart about communicating with you.  I can't imagine the frustration that you are feeling being so far away from the person you love.  Just because I have a massive stubborn streak, I think that if I were in your situation, I would keep sending encouraging emails to her.  You know she will read them even if she doesn't respond.  It seems like it would help her just to know that you love her and are thinking about her.  Please, don't give up.  I firmly believe that if things are meant to be, they will work out, no matter how impossible it may seem now.  One day, years from now, you'll both look back on this turbulent period and talk about how close you became as a result of it. 

Jeneva and I, especially during that first year that she came out to me, survived by talking, talking, talking, and lots of hugs and cuddles.  Our relationship is actually kind of funny because I always have reacted to stuff more like a guy than a girl, and she has always acted more like a girl.  When something bothers me, I want to clam up and go punch something, and she is always making me talk about my feelings whether I want to or not.   Things are always better after that. 

I just can't emphasize enough how much my heart goes out to you both.  Please hang in there.  A strong will goes a long way. 

CisInLove, I'm sending you lots of energy! Is there someone there in real life whom you can talk to? Please check in again from time to time and let us know how it goes. Long distance magnifies all the problems, that's for sure.

Dragonfly and Jeneva ...

Quote from: Dragonfly on January 14, 2012, 08:00:42 PM
Our relationship is actually kind of funny because I always have reacted to stuff more like a guy than a girl, and she has always acted more like a girl. 

We have this in my relationship too: the trans woman is definitely the more feminine of the two of us, by a long shot. She says I'm "like a guy" about sex and clothing and I say what's wrong with that? My ideas about being female have always included being STRONG and STUBBORN and fortunately we've both got that because we're going to need it.

Envie, I also practice NVC - I might message you about this some time. It needs a new name (I miss when they called it "giraffe language" - well I guess that was kinda odd too) but it's a great set of tools for making sure ALL (in this case BOTH) parties' deep needs are being heard and addressed.

Thank you Envie for the tip, I will look into it. I´m not the aggressive porcelaine-throwing-maniac..... I don´t even throw pillows when I get furious. Maybe that´s why I´ve had a few ulcers in my life... Hugs xox

Many thanks to Maddie and Jeneva, you both seem to be absolutely wonderful and I wish that you both get all your dreams fulfilled! Big hugs to you both xox

LMAO @ "Our relationship is actually kind of funny because I always have reacted to stuff more like a guy than a girl, and she has always acted more like a girl." Same here!!!!!! I can be VERY female if I want or need to be,  but I´m more comfortable in jeans and a t-shirt. Sometimes I am just a lazy lil biatch LOL.

The distance thing is really hard, although we´re only a 1 1/2 hour flight away from each other. One thing she really needs to inhale and live is: If you don´t respect and understand others, you will never be respected and understood yourself. I wouldn´t fly over and beat the friggin whoopi outta her (although I REALLY feel like it), maybe a hug and then a smack in the face which would be a first for me. She´s not answering my mails so I do suppose that "I love you more than I ever have" which she wrote a few days ago is no subject anymore. I have nobody to talk to about this whole situation. At the moment I´m at my mother´s and she first of all doesn´t know and second, she wouldn´t understand it. Unfortunately she is not very tolerant. I so wish to be able to talk to my partner in person. She wanted to come and visit New Years, seemingly wanting to talk about it but didn´t and started HRT on Jan. 6th. That´s what makes me explode; she has ruined my trust and on the other hand I could kill myself because I still love the egoistic, stupid cow. She just doesn´t want to see it...

All of you here are wonderful people that have surely gone through hell and back: thank you for listening! xox

Quote from: madwoman in the attic on January 15, 2012, 01:52:16 AM
Envie, I also practice NVC - I might message you about this some time. It needs a new name (I miss when they called it "giraffe language" - well I guess that was kinda odd too) but it's a great set of tools for making sure ALL (in this case BOTH) parties' deep needs are being heard and addressed.

My acupuncturist suggested the NVC by Marshal Rosenberg some years ago and being desperate for some solutions I went along with the book even though it seemed like a BS at the time and on the first glance. But as the time progressed I realized more and more how offensive I was on daily basis and then I went back to the book and incorporated the practice.
Sure, at some point he seems to repeat himself but the Idea was clear and one just needed to translate it into their own world and not take the examples in the book all too literate.
I'm glad you find it useful!

Quote from: envie on January 15, 2012, 07:41:56 PM
Sure, at some point he seems to repeat himself but the Idea was clear and one just needed to translate it into their own world and not take the examples in the book all too literate.
I'm glad you find it useful!

OK, thanks for the inspiration. I agree the goal is to use the tools but sound like us, not Marshall.

In terms of NVC, my conversations have become much smoother since I stopped saying "SHOULD" to people. That word has always made me angry whenever I hear it, so makes sense. Another thing I like about NVC is not trying to jump in and provide "solutions" - still a temptation (HA, if I sound like Miss FixIt NOW, it was way worse BEFORE) - but starting with empathy is way more helpful. I have always been listening to people, but NVC helps me make it clear to them that I AM listening - not just repeating what they say back, but listening for feelings and needs and making sure they are HEARD so the other party knows they have been heard. Sometimes even just ONE person really hearing me makes me able to move forward. (Well, that was a LONG nvc digression wasn't it.) Thank you Envie for the overall kind and empathic and complicated way you respond to people - which meets my needs for learning and caring and adventure.

My heart goes out to CisInLove AND her partner. It sounds like they love each other so much, and they are both complicated people with a lot going on. My partner and I have problems balancing which needs we are going to meet at any given time (and the strategies for meeting them) and we get to meet in person many times a week (although we don't yet live together full time) and if it's hard that way, I can imagine how frustrating being far apart.

So CisInLove I'm sending you lots of energy and please use it however you like. Here's to you two getting to see each other soon and having LOTS of long talks.

Yes Beverley, she did want to talk to me about it. Hugs to you xxx But I find it understandable that this subject isn´t discussable on the phone or online. She´s on her way to see me and talk, but I´m scared ->-bleeped-<-less as well as developing a hatred due to the following that has happened:
I had a terrible breakdown 2 days ago: she had sworn not to go "looking" on dating or chat sites, strangely enough repeating this 3 - 4 times. Unfortunately she did. Officially seeking a friend on a transexual dating site, but telling about her sexual preferences at the same time. That hit me like a 40 ton truck....AGAIN. But at the same time she says how much she loves me and needs me. Before I found out about the dating site I was willing to be by her side to help her through her tough journey the best I can. But now? I´ve now absolutely lost my trust, not only in her but in practically the whole world. I was even considering suicide... but that  wouldn´t solve anything. At the same time I feel I´m going mental because I still love this liar...

One question to pre- /post-ops: is it wise to just "go for it", i.e. getting HRT without any therapy or consultation other than from the GP? She has always been mentally unstable, was even in a clinic 2 years ago for a few months. 

She is almost 55. Hasn´t had a job for years, wants to move and get a new job, (but just can´t get her butt in gear) AND transition at the same time. I´ve tried to tell her to first move, then get a job, get settled and THEN start. She then says she´s been waiting for this for over 40 years....but why would possibly 1 year be so hard if she can then be happy and settled for the rest of her life???  But she won´t listen and wants it all at once and knowing her very well, she will fall into a deeper pit than she ever has. I only want to help her get her life sorted and help her in becoming the trans woman she seemingly always wanted to be and help her off her rocky and possibly suicidal path. She doesn´t seem to realise what costs will be hitting her from now on. Us girls know how expensive clothes, make-up etc. are....but she will need much more. And all that by living on social? And I definitely want to keep her from selling herself.....which she did when she was young to survive.

I´ve reached the stage of not knowing what to think or feel, although I still light up when I hear her voice.

Hugs and ty Maddie xxx

Dear CisinLove,

I am soo sorry this is happening to you!
As far as one can tell through this little information you gave us over the web, I would suggest she might have one or the other issue or both of them.
Although may be a little later than usual but this sounds like delayed mid life crisis.
The other is that she has bottled all these urges and needs all this time and now she is bursting out of control.
It might be a combination of these two which do have some similarities.

It is not quiet clear from your post if she is looking into dating sites "professionally" or satisfying some sort of sexual desire or just looking for a friend.

Since she is coming your way I feel like telling you more about the "Non Violent Communication" or NVC
It is not about throwing the porcelain around or any physical altercation.
It is about the ability to truly listen, give the conversational partner a sense that she or he is being heard, and communicate clearly your own feelings.

For instance instead of saying to her "why are you doing this to me?", the non-violent way would be to say "I feel really hurt (or sad) by what has been happening between us!"
You are avoiding the accusatory tone but rather focusing on communicating your feelings.
If you give her the sense of comfort and emotional safety she'll be willing to tell you more of what is going on with her then if you put her on the defense.
I know this can be very hard especially since you are so hurt. And justifiably so!

But if you can manage to approach her rather as a friend who is observing that she has incredible hard times and who wants to know how she might be able to help, you might be able to get her to open up and at least be honest with you.
Of course you must keep your dignity and respect in the back of your head as you don't want to be a door mate or taken advantage off either but remember, you are the more stable one.

It is hard to say that someone must have a counselor while going through the HRT but your partner is definitely some one who would benefit greatly from a good and experienced counselor.
The financial strain during the transition doesn't have to be great while going through the transition. I shop for all my cloths at Goodwill and make up is really not an issue. I spend $10 a month on HRT and less than that for make up. The only higher cost are doctors visit and the blood work. It cost me about $300 previous year for all of that and I don't have a health insurance. I go to a clinic with sliding scale and shop around for the HRT. So this is not too bad financially in my experience. I know the expenses can vary depending on someones location but I think since the internet you can get far without living your home and shop around.

I know you are seeing her behavior as irrational and it might be very truth but I am afraid pointing that out to her is not going to help very much as it might result in putting her on defense.
Try to learn first from her where she is coming from, what are her motivation, and then go from there on.

Good luck!!!

Bev, sweetie darling (can you tell I´m an Ab Fab fan?!? lol) Thank you so very much for your reply! Here a little more "food":
She lives in the pampa in South Wales, I at the moment, am in Germany. I really do feel like reporting her doc to the NHS for giving her the HRT without any counselling. It could be extremely dangerous for my partner, since she is labile.
She wants to move to Milton Keynes or Great Yarmouth (having her sister in M.K. and her mum in G.Y., who she both just bonded with again). And I would want to be with her, if the outcome of our meeting will be positive. I have no idea how "tolerant" these places are, we had once planned to move to Brighton, but alas, it is momentarily out of the question.

Thank you again for your support, big hugs xxx

Dear Envie,
Thank you so much for your reply. I really am and will try to be calm and collected when I talk to her. She should arriving in about 8 hours... I have taken a short peek into a NVC site, but unfortunately haven´t had the time to get into it any deeper. It´s perfectly clear tro me that being over-emotional or even violent will surely not be of any help. And as I have mentioned before, I don´t even throw pillows....LOL

I have no idea what she expects from the dating sites. I hope to the Godesses that she is really only seeking friendship...but then why fill out her sexual preferences in the form???

Scared ->-bleeped-<-less in what will happen, either way I guess the hurt will never completely disappear.

Take care xxx