you know what?  people ask for proof, scientific data, hard evidence, studies, yet when that information is [presented] to them in the form of (hbsoc, dsm, criteria for diagnosis of transexualism, etc), the same people cry and whine that  such information is inaccurate or flawed.  it's a no-win situation and very typical of someone who lives in a fantasy world.  btw; im [not] post-op yet, but i will be. furthermore, i dont back up any opinion that a castrated person is a postop transexual or that a ->-bleeped-<- [crossdresser] should have the same rights as a preop or postop ts.

OK then what would your definition of a person MtoF on HRT who presents [very well I might add] and wishes to be female and has been surgically castrated.

Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 01:16:24 PM
OK then what would your definition of a person MtoF on HRT who presents [very well I might add] and wishes to be female and has been surgically castrated.

a preop transexual.

Now remember I said Surgically castrated. Why in your opinion wouldn't that be post-op Transsexual, possibly because thats not the traditional or generally accepted definition?

Quote from: Katia on April 02, 2007, 01:06:48 PM
you know what?  people ask for proof, scientific data, hard evidence, studies, yet when that information is [presented] to them in the form of (hbsoc, dsm, criteria for diagnosis of transexualism, etc), the same people cry and whine that  such information is inaccurate or flawed.  it's a no-win situation and very typical of someone who lives in a fantasy world.  btw; im [not] post-op yet, but i will be. furthermore, i dont back up any opinion that a castrated person is a postop transexual or that a ->-bleeped-<- [crossdresser] should have the same rights as a preop or postop ts.

Just back up what you say. I have seen you spew a lot of opinions, but  I have not seen the peer reviewed studies to prove it. DSM is dead, everyone knows that GID will not appear in DSM-V, it barely made it into DSM-IV after it was heavily watered down. But even so, DSM is a political document. It's about votes on a committee. It has nothing to do with science or understanding Transsexualism. None of these people making the decisions know what it feels like to feel one has the wrong body.

And what makes you think you have any rights that anyone else is not entitled to? Good grief, do you really beleive that crap? You are entitled to consideration that others are not? Because why? Because you don't think they are transsexual? Maybe they don't think you are transsexual. How do we know that you are not really just a ->-bleeped-<- tricking the system and you attack others who you think are like you, as your cover? You see, we only have your word to know you are what you say you are.

Thinking you have some special dignity that others don't have because you have decided that you are a "true transsexual" and others are not, is beyond hypocracy. There is no one qualified to say who is and who is not a transsexual, other than what someone says to be true of themselves. What that means is subjective.

Look at Micheal Jackson's face. Now he did not need any letters to do that to himself. There is no way he does not regret that. Yet, he needed no letters, no therapy, no permission slips. This nonsense about SOC is complete bull->-bleeped-<-. It's subjective. Who gets the letter and who does not is completely subjective. All by people who don't have a clue what it's like. With rules written by people who are more interested in making a name for themselves than to really try to understand what is going on.

I will do what I have to do, but I am not foolish enough to beleive the people writing these rules understand who is and who is not afflicted with GID. If they did, we would not be having this pleasant conversation.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 01:26:56 PM
Now remember I said Surgically castrated. Why in your opinion wouldn't that be post-op Transsexual, possibly because thats not the traditional or generally accepted definition?

are circumcised male babies postop transexuals?  are men who've had their testicles removed due to testicular cancer postop transexuals? are psychotic men who mutilate their genitals postop transexuals?  what makes a mtf postoperative? the construction of a vagina.  i've said everything i needed to say on this topic btw.

Let's back this train up a little bit, if you don't mind, I think we're skirting something here.  Okay, so why is it so important that a castrated person be considered a post-op transexual? Or anyone for that matter?  I understand having the SRS is of great significance to an individual, but aside from that where is the importance of others considering you post-op? Genuine curiousity, not sarcasm, please don't yell at me, but I really would like to know the answers to these questions.

Quote from: Katia on April 02, 2007, 01:33:58 PM

Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 01:26:56 PM
Now remember I said Surgically castrated. Why in your opinion wouldn't that be post-op Transsexual, possibly because thats not the traditional or generally accepted definition?

are circumcised male babies postop transexuals?  are men who've had their testicles removed due to testicular cancer postop transexuals? are psychotic men who mutilate their genitals postop transexuals?  what makes a mtf postoperative? the construction of a vagina.  i've said everything i needed to say on this topic btw.

The problem with your scenarios is that non of the men you refer to wish to present female. "what makes a mtf postoperative? the construction of a vagina". Shouldn't that include IMHHO? all of mine are In My Humble Honest Opinion, I am not trying to cram a definition or stereo type anybody here. Reminds me of my way or the highway.

Quote from: angelsgirl on April 02, 2007, 01:41:03 PMwhere is the importance of others considering you post-op?

Unless random genital inspection has become commonplace without my knowledge I have no idea, personally I don't give a rats. post op meanst post as in after and op as in operation it's inspecific but in the context we use it here and frankly anywhere else in the trans world it reffers to full SRS, anything else is post-orchie or post-BA or whatever, extending post op to any old surgical intervention would just get confusing. If someone wants to replace post-op with post-GRS then that's fine with me just extending it as an umbrella is stupid just to give some insecure people a little more validation which should come from within.

Quote from: angelsgirl on April 02, 2007, 01:41:03 PM
Let's back this train up a little bit, if you don't mind, I think we're skirting something here.  Okay, so why is it so important that a castrated person be considered a post-op transexual? Or anyone for that matter?  I understand having the SRS is of great significance to an individual, but aside from that where is the importance of others considering you post-op? Genuine curiousity, not sarcasm, please don't yell at me, but I really would like to know the answers to these questions.

Actually it's not that important, I have never really been one to care what others think of me. Simply put the question was raised and several have offered there opinions and others have pored concrete and set the definition in stone and expect us to stand there in the concrete while it dries.

I am a transsexual woman [meaning I have been diagnosed by both a therapist and an MD that I have GID and I am taking medications to help me i.e. HRT], I present and live full time as a woman, I have had genital surgery [I have been surgically castrated] IMHHO I am a post-op Transexual although I don't have a neo-vagina, as the cement dries you can't be post-op.

Quote from: Mawd on April 02, 2007, 01:47:57 PM

Quote from: angelsgirl on April 02, 2007, 01:41:03 PMwhere is the importance of others considering you post-op?

Unless random genital inspection has become commonplace without my knowledge I have no idea, personally I don't give a rats. post op meanst post as in after and op as in operation it's inspecific but in the context we use it here and frankly anywhere else in the trans world it reffers to full SRS, anything else is post-orchie or post-BA or whatever, extending post op to any old surgical intervention would just get confusing. If someone wants to replace post-op with post-GRS then that's fine with me just extending it as an umbrella is stupid just to give some insecure people a little more validation which should come from within.

I like post-orchi that fits I also like post-GRS. what I like the most is your not trying to cram something down our throats

Quote from: angelsgirl on April 02, 2007, 01:41:03 PM
  Okay, so why is it so important that a castrated person be considered a post-op transexual?

Possibly people want to get the benefits from the government without having the operation.  Possibly they want to be known as post-op for insecurity reasons.  Inside themselves, they know post-op means completion and people get frustrated for not being complete themselves and want to lie to others saying they are post-op.  post-op transsexual is a transwoman who has a vagina.  It's very difficult to be post-op because the operation is very painful and rigorous follow up care.  So nobody who isn't post-op can understand.

I would like to know one thing who said a "post-op transsexual is a transwoman who has a vagina?" that is other than the folks here at the Susan's? Anybody with any real authority.

insecurity issues more likely.   

Quote from: Yvonne on April 02, 2007, 02:14:26 PM
insecurity issues more likely.   

mmmmmm nope sorry try again. thats just my opinion..............

Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 02:10:16 PM
I would like to know one thing who said a "post-op transsexual is a transwoman who has a vagina?" that is other than the folks here at the Susan's? Anybody with any real authority.

Yeah, me. Wha'cha gonna do about it? 

Seriously, though. C'mon... these are just words. I genuinely don't know why some people who've had orchis are so keen to use that label; it's not something I personally would have considered if I had had an orchiectomy, which I haven't. Doesn't make you any less of a person to me at all... especially with those legs. 

However, post-op is usually shorthand for GRS. You know it, we all know it... you can embrace all sorts of meaning in order to justify a stance, but when we're having a conversation between ourselves and to the outside world, you're dealing with a set of assumptions, not facts. And those assumptions are what makes understanding and communication possible. So if someone says to me that they're post-op, I'm not inclined to dwell on the nuances of what that actually means and will take those words on face value.

So OK, you're post-op to some but not others. Does it genuinely matter?

Quote from: Stormy Weather on April 02, 2007, 02:34:04 PM

Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 02:10:16 PM
I would like to know one thing who said a "post-op transsexual is a transwoman who has a vagina?" that is other than the folks here at the Susan's? Anybody with any real authority.

Yeah, me. Wha'cha gonna do about it? 

Seriously, though. C'mon... these are just words. I genuinely don't know why some people who've had orchis are so keen to use that label; it's not something I personally would have considered if I had had an orchiectomy, which I haven't. Doesn't make you any less of a person to me at all... especially with those legs. 

However, post-op is usually shorthand for GRS. You know it, we all know it... you can embrace all sorts of meaning in order to justify a stance, but when we're having a conversation between ourselves and to the outside world, you're dealing with a set of assumptions, not facts. And those assumptions are what makes understanding and communication possible. So if someone says to me that they're post-op, I'm not inclined to dwell on the nuances of what that actually means and will take those words on face value.

So OK, you're post-op to some but not others. Does it genuinely matter?

Thank you lots of moisturizer

No it doesn't thats been my point all along, I will not argue the point about post-op being short hand for GRS in fact I agree with that 100%. I will argue that GRS is the ONLY way to be post-op.

My issues has been others here telling me one I am not post-op because you don't have a vagina WELL EXCUSE THE FIRE OUTA ME I DON'T FIT IN YOUR MOLD. And two being insecure, who the F*** do you thing you are telling me I'm insecure, other than those itty bitty issues I'm cool.

Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 02:50:11 PM


I will not argue the point about post-op being short hand for GRS in fact I agree with that 100%. I will argue that GRS is the ONLY way to be post-op.

ive been wasting my breath for nothing then.   you should've said it earlier.

i have to agree about those legs though.

Quote from: Katia on April 02, 2007, 02:54:36 PM

Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 02:50:11 PM


I will not argue the point about post-op being short hand for GRS in fact I agree with that 100%. I will argue that GRS is the ONLY way to be post-op.

ive been wasting my breath for nothing then.   you should've said it earlier.

i have to agree about those legs though.

AAhhhh ***hugs***

Thank you my BF really likes em also my best feature

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 30, 2006, 06:13:21 AM
In my world if you can walk into a gender appropriate locker room, that is appropriate to the gender you identify with, and take off all your clothes and not shock anyone with what's between your legs, then you're post op.

When we are born they look between our legs to determine gender.  That's the way this society does things.  I know how I feel inside but they won't accept that as proof of gender.  If you're a transitioning TS and can pass the between the legs test then you're post op.  That's just me.  I don't want to have to do any explaining as to why I'm female if I still have a penis between my legs.

Julie

Indeed.

With just a slight aesthetic modification of the present anatomical configuration [a simple 'tensioning' of the tissue], that would be no problem for me.

You will forgive the underlying tone of great anger here.

Indeed, what does constitute post-op and am I any less the woman for not fitting an artificial and specious paradigm that is rigidly and doggedly adhered to by 'society' and certain others - ??

Or shall we play 'law of the excluded middle' games here based solely on phenotype, in order to obviate the 'tedious' task of ratiocination - ??

Yes indeed, this could accurately be categorized as a 'vent' - for the most part. 

Quote from: Hidrix on April 28, 2007, 04:03:46 AM
for a dude, post of is have a penis or the other operation metodoispalasty (?)
for a girl. post of is have a vagina

I'm a little less 'keyed up' today, Chris.

I do have to admit that much of my angst here is derived from my...issues concerning altering the 'gender marker' on my official documentation and I have to admit that the emotion surrounding this is biasing my perspective very heavily.

Tink, nor anyone else here is maintaining that fatuous conceptualization that gender identity is necessarily and solely a function of genitalia, that the Feds and so many others are doggedly adhering to.

You will find no advocacy for the present [mis]Administration here. 

I badly want the vaginoplasty; I cannot be complete without it. Make no mistake here.

Having said this however, I have major problems with condition where I am not 'officially' categorized as female simply due to my present genital configuration.

Tink stated what SHE considers post-op; I myself do not think much of that definition and perceive it as flawed, but she was not so audacious as to insist that one is not female if they do not fit her perception of what constitutes post-op, nor would I expect her to.