Quote from: Annah on January 25, 2012, 03:13:31 PM
Actually, during this point in time, I prefer to call Bradley Manning a psychopath and a deeply troubled person.

He threatened his step mother with a butcher's knife, lived in a truck because all of his family members were afraid of him, numerous accounts of insubordination (had no idea how to follow orders and screamed at his commanding officers, had numerous encounters with various military mental health counselors, and punched a female soldier in the face.

He did brief internet sessions with a gender counselor and the gender counselor doubted he is transgender. The Therapist stated that he has many other mental health issues going on right now that makes it impossible to tell if he is transgender or if this is another one of his phases or a reaction to his inability to cope with people around him or an attempt of getting attention (his previous boyfriends all left him because of his inability to cope with people and his strong desire for unhealthy attention)....this is probably why I am still referring him to the male gender. I think he is at the mental state where he doesn't know what he wants.

Yeah, I don't really care what you think about her mental state, because I think she's made it clear that her identity is such.  Trans people are constantly having their mental state questioned by others for their identity, and it's really unsavory.  She may have a hell of a lot of other mental health issues going on, and she clearly did several things that were indefensible.  I'm not defending her actions, but y'all, respecting people's self-identity is a cardinal rule.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on January 26, 2012, 01:12:53 AM
Yeah, I don't really care what you think about her mental state, because I think she's made it clear that her identity is such.  Trans people are constantly having their mental state questioned by others for their identity, and it's really unsavory.  She may have a hell of a lot of other mental health issues going on, and she clearly did several things that were indefensible.  I'm not defending her actions, but y'all, respecting people's self-identity is a cardinal rule.

You missed my point. The top section of my post was in response to Bradley and why he was a perfect candidate of being taken advantaged of by wikileaks. He desired attention so much he was willing to do something illegal to get it.

My second point (which has bearing to how he sees his self) is the fact that he doesn't know what he believes. He even stated that. If he is unsure as to what he is, I will use the default pronoun until he is clear he is transgender.

I've been following his story. One week he is a gay man, the other week he wants to be a woman. It then cycles depending on his mood and his therapists are saying he has a personality crises and it's one of the defense team's arguments in his favor.

So, essentially, you saying "her" all the time can be offensive to Bradley as he keeps on switching what his identity is. Who knows, maybe Bradley is Bi Gender...but at this time no one has been saying anything.

I think you should know by now by my posts I am a big advocate of the gender being between the ears and not between the legs and I am an advocate for non ops and pre op's right to be a woman. I've been attacked here quite a few times for defending my views that post op women are not the only ones who has the right to be called female. Bradley doesn't know what he is. He even told his therapist that. He goes by a female name on twitter and he crossdressed a couple times to take pics but according to Bradley and his therapist, that's as far as they gotten and he is so confused with a myriad of other issues that he is not sure of his gender...this is coming from him...not the Army.

So the proper pronoun will probably be he/she or a pronoun that reflects when Bradley feels of the proper gender at the time.

Quote from: Annah on January 26, 2012, 01:24:11 AM
You missed my point. The top section of my post was in response to Bradley and why he was a perfect candidate of being taken advantaged of.

My second point (which has bearing to how he sees his self) is the fact that he doesn't know what he believes. He even stated that. If he is unsure as to what he is, I will use the default pronoun until he is clear he is transgender.

I've been following his story. One week he is a gay man, the other week he wants to be a woman. It then cycles depending on his mood and his therapists are saying he has a personality crises and it's one of the defense team's arguments in his favor.

So, essentially, you saying "her" all the time can be offensive to Bradley as he keeps on switching what his identity is. Who knows, maybe Bradley is Bi Gender...but at this time no one has been saying anything.

So the proper pronoun will probably be he/she or a pronoun that reflects when Bradley feels of the proper gender at the time.

This isn't exactly an uncommon method of progression; the only thing that's uncommon is that there's a treason scandal surrounding the whole affair.  Plenty of people "try on" a gay identity before they really understand their gender identity.  I haven't exactly heard of any switching back and forth like you seem to be insinuating.  All I know is that

Quote
I wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me... plastered all over the world press... as boy.

doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a gay male would say.

I think the defense's idea of using this as a defense is inane, but I also think they wouldn't be using "gender identity disorder" to get her out of trouble if it were blatantly false and if Breanna were just a gay guy. 

Is this discussion going anywhere?

If not lets leave it and go back to the main thread

Quote from: Wonderdyke on January 26, 2012, 01:29:23 AM
"I wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me... plastered all over the world press... as boy."

doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a gay male would say.

I think the defense's idea of using this as a defense is inane, but I also think they wouldn't be using "gender identity disorder" to get her out of trouble if it were blatantly false and if Breanna were just a gay guy.

Actually, I think it's a lot deeper than that.

Bradley has had a very troubled past. I wouldn't pin it all on Gender Identity Dysphoria. GID doesn't typically cause people to threaten their step-mothers with a butcher knife or punch a girl in the face or end up living in their truck because all of their family members are scared to death to take him into their homes.

My biggest question is not whether Bradley is a boy or a girl but how in the hell did the Army allow this person to be enlisted?

I am not just saying this to say it. Even his gender therapist said the same thing.

Quote from: Annah on January 26, 2012, 01:36:09 AM
Actually, I think it's a lot deeper than that.

Bradley has had a very troubled past. I wouldn't pin it all on Gender Identity Dysphoria. GID doesn't typically cause people to threaten their step-mothers with a butcher knife or punch a girl in the face or end up living in their truck because all of their family members are scared to death to take him into their homes.

I am not just saying this to say it. Even his gender therapist said the same thing.

I'm more baffled at how you think they cannot coexist.  Clearly Manning has issues with her mental health, but I don't see why she isn't allowed to identify as female, those issues notwithstanding.

Quote from: Cindy James on January 26, 2012, 01:32:43 AM
Is this discussion going anywhere?

If not lets leave it and go back to the main thread

Actually, I think it has a lot to do with the thread. One of the biggest parts of Bradley's legal matters involves the state of his gender and if the defense can use this to their side.

Also, it's a big deal for transgenders as Bradley sometimes identifies as transgender and right now he doesn't represent transgender in it's better light....considering the nature of Bradley's crime.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on January 26, 2012, 01:40:50 AM
I'm more baffled at how you think they cannot coexist.  Clearly Manning has issues with her mental health, but I don't see why she isn't allowed to identify as female, those issues notwithstanding.

Im not saying they cannot co exist. What I am saying (as well as his OWN therapist) is that his outlook on being a girl can be the result of other mental instabilities in his life and him feeling like a girl could be a result from his other mental illnesses.

Quote from: Annah on January 26, 2012, 01:36:09 AM
Actually, I think it's a lot deeper than that.

Bradley has had a very troubled past.  I wouldn't pin it all on Gender Identity Dysphoria. GID doesn't typically cause people to threaten their step-mothers with a butcher knife or punch a girl in the face or end up living in their truck because all of their family members are scared to death to take him into their homes.

My biggest question is not whether Bradley is a boy or a girl but how in the hell did the Army allow this person to be enlisted?

I am not just saying this to say it. Even his gender therapist said the same thing.

Kia Ora Annah,

And all this info comes from none other than "the sources who are out to crucify him!"

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Annah on January 26, 2012, 01:46:22 AM
Im not saying they cannot co exist. What I am saying (as well as his OWN therapist) is that his outlook on being a girl can be the result of other mental instabilities in his life and him feeling like a girl could be a result from his other mental illnesses.

Like.......I guess that's possible??  I just don't really think that the therapist does or can know better than the patient.  Maybe that's just my own skepticism of mental health professionals that's come from my experiences with them, though.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on January 25, 2012, 12:44:59 PM
Literal lol @ consistent misgendering.

So much for respect for identity, huh?  I guess it's only ok if the person isn't around to complain.

The reason for the misgendering is because Bradley/Brianna hasn't specified themselves how they'd like to be referred to. The evidence that they have GID was taken from chat logs and private conversations.

Quote from: Zenda on January 26, 2012, 01:47:42 AM
Kia Ora Annah,

And all this info comes from none other than "the sources who are out to crucify him!"

Metta Zenda

not quite.

Most of this came from his defense team.....not the prosecutor.

Quote from: Annah on January 26, 2012, 01:36:09 AM
My biggest question is not whether Bradley is a boy or a girl but how in the hell did the Army allow this person to be enlisted?

Having spent 10 yrs in the Military, I found myself asking that question a lot... how did "that" person...and even about myself.

I am glad to see that this topic has generated this much interest, and Wonderdyke  raising the question of why are we "misgendering" Manning? I see no reason not to accept Manning's being Transgendered, it is not "debunked" by his/her actions, but regardless they broke the law and gave away Classified information that was not their's to give. And the Army shares blame here also for not taking action against Manning prior to this incident. Was Manning a victim of "Catch-22"?

Kia Ora

"how in the hell did the Army allow this person to be enlisted?"

It does make one wonder....

http://rt.com/news/afghanistan-us-marines-urinate-621/

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Annah on January 26, 2012, 01:36:09 AM
My biggest question is not whether Bradley is a boy or a girl but how in the hell did the Army allow this person to be enlisted?

Reminds me of this dialogue from the 1970 film MASH:

Hotlips O'Houlihan: I wonder how such a degenerated person ever reached a position of authority in the Army Medical Corps.
Father Mulcahy: He was drafted.

Quote from: SandraJane on January 26, 2012, 10:20:03 PM
Having spent 10 yrs in the Military, I found myself asking that question a lot... how did "that" person...and even about myself.

I am glad to see that this topic has generated this much interest, and Wonderdyke  raising the question of why are we "misgendering" Manning? I see no reason not to accept Manning's being Transgendered, it is not "debunked" by his/her actions, but regardless they broke the law and gave away Classified information that was not their's to give. And the Army shares blame here also for not taking action against Manning prior to this incident. Was Manning a victim of "Catch-22"?

"Victim"?

A "Catch 22" is a no-win situation.  From the novel:

There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he were sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.

The character "Orr" had an option - he could have not reported for duty at all and accepted the consequences of his actions.  Manning had the choice of not leaking classified materials.  One always has options.

Quote from: Jamie D on January 27, 2012, 03:00:36 AM
Reminds me of this dialogue from the 1970 film MASH:

Hotlips O'Houlihan: I wonder how such a degenerated person ever reached a position of authority in the Army Medical Corps.
Father Mulcahy: He was drafted.

I enlisted in the Navy during the Vietnam war.  I didn't have to due to my birthday draft was #300 out of 366 plus they had stopped the draft for my year (1952).  Others I knew were drafted in the Army, they had no choice.  As with the Marines urinating on the corpses, worst things has happened in all wars we have been involved on both sides .  Listening to my nephews, the worst things are done is what the insurgents do to the locals, their own kind in Iraq and Afghanistan. 
  A lot of things that happened during WWII and Korea was not said until decades later.  Vietnam was the first televised war, the reporting still restricted.  Iraq-Afghanistan, too transparent for all sides (there are more than two here in both arenas).  Everybody has a digital camera and can send anything shot with it anywhere at the speed of light.  War is hell and anybody who goes into war sane and proper end up doing this stuff because they are constantly exposed to what the enemy has done to their comrades and with this war, what '->-bleeped-<-' the enemy do to to their own kind! 
  Joelene

Quote from: Jamie D on January 27, 2012, 03:13:48 AM
"Victim"?

A "Catch 22" is a no-win situation.  From the novel:


The character "Orr" had an option - he could have not reported for duty at all and accepted the consequences of his actions.  Manning had the choice of not leaking classified materials.  One always has options.

And remember that Orr escaped to Sweden, having defeated the Catch 22 clause! But notice how regardless of what Manning did, he was always put back in the game by his superiors...a common military flaw, not enough qualified or competent personnel.

Yes it was his choice, but the military believes in "ownership"...you belong to US!