I am interested in what you all think about gender roles.

What behaviors did you eventually learn you needed to change? How did you go about changing them?

How much conscious thought do/did you put into "acting" female compared to being yourself?

I have noticed my physical behavior changes drastically when I am with people who know I am MtF. I just act more feminine. I don't put much conscious thought into it. Instead, I am often surprised to catch myself making girls sounds or gestures.

I have played a man for most of my life. I have trouble believing that by just being myself I will act completely female.

What have y'all worked on? What do you all consider going too far?

Tori

acting = fake

just be yourself, don't act in a certain way, just because society declares it to be "female".

Quote from: Zarania on January 28, 2012, 07:31:34 PM
acting = fake

just be yourself, don't act in a certain way, just because society declares it to be "female".

I expected a reply like yours and thank you.

I agree in spirit.

I disagree a bit when it comes to behavior. Women walk differently, sit differently, and most important, talk differently (although that is a discussion for another forum)... etc.


The word "act" is the root of the word "action" and a person's actions inform others about who they are.

Everybody acts. I act happy whenever I see my neighbor who I hate.

Meryl Streep acts. She finds a way to be believable in most people's eyes even when she is playing Margaret Thatcher.

Good acting comes from honesty.

I am good at acting male. People don't think i try too hard. Yet, I think I'll make a better female.

I haven't really worked on much of anything    I've always been feminine by nature and people would comment on it saying things like
'Why don't you act like a man?' or 'This'll make a man out of you' etc.

It would kinda crack me up sometimes, people would tell me 'Just be yourself' and then ask 'Why don't you act like a man?'    Kind of a mixed message to say the least, But I've noticed that life is full of contradictions

Well, you can see how well trying to 'Act like a man' turned out    Anyway, I got tired of acting and decided to just be myself

I find that folks that are often harping about gender norms tend to be the actors 

Last week I realised just how much 'nuture' plays in our lives.   In two separate incidents on two different days I heard the following:

Middle-Aged Woman(speaking to two 18 month old boys): I'll bet that you are a real handful!(This was said with real enthusiasm by the woman).   Although these twin boys were very young I doubt that this was the first time - or will be the last - they were exposed to gender specific nurturing.   Boys are supposed to be boisterous, outgoing, untameable etc.

The second incident - also involving a middle-aged woman was as follows:

MAW(speaking to a boy of about 3 years of age) "Oh just look at you!  You're so big and strong.  I am sure that you love your grub, don't you?"

This slow drip, drip placing of suggestions into the mind slowly but surely has a long-term effect.   

I'm just going to give my opinion on the subject, just my opinion, which many will likely disagree with, and won't be applicable to all readers due to individual philosophical differences and difference circumstances.

And with that disclaimer... it doesn't matter.

You think if Obama walked and talked like whatever a woman is supposed to walk and talk like, he'd be read as a chick? Not a chance. Same in reverse.

People act individually, they just do. If you pass, it's because you look and sound female. Not because of how you walk or the words you say or any of that.

In this I define pass as being 'read' as cis in your identified gender. Not obviously presenting as one and causing people to humor you.

It doesn't matter, if you pass you pass. How you walk won't change a thing.

@VM Yeah, the beauty in people is how they are all different.

You don't have to act to be yourself. But everybody acts. Most people are not acting like themselves. They play a part. Most don't even recognize it.

Transition helps people act like their proper gender. Or like we tend to say around here, act like we really are.

That said, the point of this thread is about differences in behavioral gestures and weather they are conscious or not. What behaviors keep/kept outing y'all. What did/didn't you do about them?

I am happy to have a semantic discussion about the definition of acting, but I actually am well trained in that art.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 28, 2012, 08:18:22 PM
I'm just going to give my opinion on the subject, just my opinion, which many will likely disagree with, and won't be applicable to all readers due to individual philosophical differences and difference circumstances.

And with that disclaimer... it doesn't matter.

You think if Obama walked and talked like whatever a woman is supposed to walk and talk like, he'd be read as a chick? Not a chance. Same in reverse.

People act individually, they just do. If you pass, it's because you look and sound female. Not because of how you walk or the words you say or any of that.

In this I define pass as being 'read' as cis in your identified gender. Not obviously presenting as one and causing people to humor you.

It doesn't matter, if you pass you pass. How you walk won't change a thing.

Passing is a combo of things. You don't have to get 100% on the quiz to pass. You just have to get enough right to not fail.

Voice and body language (actions) are non-surgical means of passing. Dressing (also an act) helps one pass. Make-up? Acting. Crossing your legs?

You get the point.

Some would say these are more important than SRS, FFS and BA. Perhaps even more than HRT.

I can understand how the word 'acting' may send the wrong signals and encourage people who wish to be stealth, to be like drag queens, but that misses the nuance of my original post. 

Tell me y'all don't like being told, "You're acting like a girl."

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 28, 2012, 07:35:06 PM
I don't think about it much at all..  I just do what comes naturally and that seems to work for me.. But I've learnt that I was never really as much of a 'man' as I thought I was - even people I went to high school with could see it.

Am I a girly girl? No, but people are in no doubt that I am a woman..

This is inspiring. Thank you for your post.

Quote from: Tori on January 28, 2012, 08:29:33 PM
Passing is a combo of things. You don't have to get 100% on the quiz to pass. You just have to get enough right to not fail.

Voice and body language (actions) are non-surgical means of passing. Dressing (also an act) helps one pass. Make-up? Acting. Crossing your legs?

You get the point.

Some would say these are more important than SRS, FFS and BA. Perhaps even more than HRT.

I can understand how the word 'acting' may send the wrong signals and encourage people who wish to be stealth to be like drag queens but that misses the nuance of my original post.

Some would say a lot of things...

'Dressing' helps you get people to refer to you identified gender, it doesn't help you pass.

Crossing your legs? You think if 99.9% of guys crossed their legs, or girls didn't, it would affect the gender they're identified as?

Voice, face, and body type are what's needed for 'passing' as I would define it (being perceived as a member of your identified gender).

Everything else will do only to us what it would do to anyone else, which is to help with being perceived as trying to imitate a member of your identified gender whilst being read as an actual member of the opposite gender.

That's my opinion and you don't have to believe it.

Your disclaimers crack me up!

Yeah, we have to use words carefully on this forum. I love the way you deal with it. Fret not about me. I love a good discussion and they rarely happen with people whom I see 100% eye to eye.

I don't think we are in disagreement on substance... just semantics.

MtF's spend a bulk of their lives living as the wrong sex. Acting as someone else. I understand why it becomes hard to admit y'all are acting now, too. But that assumes that acting is bad. Acting is what gets us out of bed. What feeds us. What earns our next pay check.

That said, gender roles are exactly that... roles. People are acting 99.9% of their lives. It has nothing to do with being TS. We purt' near always act the way we want people to see us... doesn't matter what hormonal cocktail we're on.

Like I said, I am happy to discuss semantics all day and night but I would really like to talk about changes in behavior and action.

Have you never made female faces in the mirror?

Why on earth would anybody try to do that?

Quote from: Tori on January 28, 2012, 08:53:31 PM
Your disclaimers crack me up!

Yeah, we have to use words carefully on this forum. I love the way you deal with it. Fret not about me. I love a good discussion and they rarely happen with people whom I see 100% eye to eye.

I don't think we are in disagreement on substance... just semantics.

MtF's spend a bulk of their lives living as the wrong sex. Acting as someone else. I understand why it becomes hard to admit y'all are acting now, too. But that assumes that acting is bad. Acting is what gets us out of bed. What feeds us. What earns our next pay check.

That said, gender roles are exactly that... roles. People are acting 99.9% of their lives. It has nothing to do with being TS. We purt' near always act the way we want people to see us... doesn't matter what hormonal cocktail we're on.

Like I said, I am happy to discuss semantics all day and night but I would really like to talk about changes in behavior and action.

Have you never made female faces in the mirror?

Why on earth would anybody try to do that?

I agree we are all actors, but it's not really the point I was making.

I wasn't denying the existence of social roles or gender specific general behaviors. I just don't believe it makes any difference in how people perceive you as BEING male or female, just of what it in fact is, acting male or female.

I agree completely and that is a great point to make.

What I am getting at is a little different.

I am pre-HRT. I am transitioning but not yet chemically.

I can work on voice, dress, make-up, and behavior while I wait.

Behavior interests me most because I have not yet seen a non-HRT thread about it here. Also, as an actor, I am well trained at honestly changing my behavior (also all those years acting like a yucky guy).

I appreciate the "Be yourself" mantra. Even while acting on stage I have to be myself or the audience won't believe me... or Meryl Streep. For MOST people, learning to "Be yourself" is the most important lesson of them all. IMO, I am pretty great at being myself.

What I want to discuss is how to be a girl. Yes, hormones and being yourself will do most of the work for you... in many cases.

But we wouldn't call it a 'transition' if it weren't a total change. Part of the change is a change in action. Perhaps the biggest change is liking yourself finally... but people do 'act' female. Y'all women don't have to act that way all the time in order to pass... but like voice work, it can pay off. Otherwise it can give you away.

I hope I am not hurting any feelings here. I am honestly curious.

The T in me can make me feel like a bull in a china shop... particularly on this website. But my intent is noble.

I have seen my share of transsexuals who look and sound like thy should have been cast in "Work It". I want to do better. Behavior is a HUGE part of passing and hormones are not the only way to identify and change behavior.

Hi Tori 

I don't think acting as in theatre and film is bad, there are good and bad actors There are many I think are great actors, then there are those I don't care for so much

Truly we all are actors in a sense, I guess possibly one question could be how much of it is natural behavior and how much is forced or over emphasized to the point it become ridiculous

Of coarse if someone is doing comedy, sometimes ridiculous is a way of putting a more serious point across

In everyday life we all act in a way that is our natural behavior regardless of the norms

Quote from: V M on January 28, 2012, 09:44:59 PM
Hi Tori 

I don't think acting as in theatre and film is bad, there are good and bad actors There are many I think are great actors, then there are those I don't care for so much

Truly we all are actors in a sense, I guess possibly one question could be how much of it is natural behavior and how much is forced or over emphasized to the point it become ridiculous

Of coarse if someone is doing comedy, sometimes ridiculous is a way of putting a more serious point across

In everyday life we all act in a way that is our natural behavior regardless of the norms

Thank you V M. You make me giggle in a good way.

Y'all women get acting better than most of my former classmates.

The hang up is: Acting = phony.

I insist it does not.

BAD acting =phony.

We all play a part and some of us are lucky enough to play two in our lifetime.

It takes intelligence and a true sense of self to 'Pass'. But we wouldn't call it passing is we didn't feel like we were getting away with something.

I am glad fate brought me here to Susan's forum. In a couple of years, I will be able to teach what I am asking about.

Acting is not about being phony. It is about DOING things. If I play a cop, I do cop things. Also, I dress like a cop.

People will think I am a cop because I am acting, talking and looking like one.

Would I need surgery?

No.

And yet I can still pass. Why? Because I act like a cop.

If I act too hard, people will detect the phoniness... but if I hit the sweet zone...

It is just like voice, what I am talking about.

I agree... but "act" is different than act.

Acting as "you" is still acting.

I want to know about THAT stuff. How do you "act" yourself?

Again, (and I guess I'm hating on the drag queens tonight... I love you ladies!) I am not talking about being TOO feminine to be perceived real. I am not talking about playing a Drag Queen.

Playing yourSELF is as much an act as any other. It just feels right. But it too is an ACT.

I don't believe hormones do it all... conscious thought also plays a part.

Have YOU never made girl faces in the mirror?

Oh Kelly,

Please don't leave. I love your input and am inspired by you.

I have not pulled up a definition of "Act" because I thought that would be rude.

However, NOBODY yet has answered my questions from my original post. Is that not rude?

And if you DID read said definition, you would know that my semantics are sound.

Like I have said, I will discuss semantics all day, but what I really want is for someone to answer my original post.

You don't think you act? Then kindly review the definition of "act".

Have you NEVER looked at yourself in the mirror and made girly faces?

I am running on T right now, but I am transitioning. It hurts to not be able to communicate properly due to my current hormone imbalance... yet I thought y'all would understand better than most.

The only thing I've put conscious thought into changing has been my voice and now I can't really even force it as low as it was before. Most everything else hasn't changed much really. I always crossed my legs rather than ankle across knees and never had a swagger or anything.


And sometimes for fun, I do act like a bunny, hop around and make bunny faces too.  But I don't get into the whole carrot and cabbage thing as I am anti-vegetable.

Quote from: Jaime on January 28, 2012, 11:09:41 PM
The only thing I've put conscious thought into changing has been my voice and now I can't really even force it as low as it was before. Most everything else hasn't changed much really. I always crossed my legs rather than ankle across knees and never had a swagger or anything.


And sometimes for fun, I do act like a bunny, hop around and make bunny faces too.  But I don't get into the whole carrot and cabbage thing as I am anti-vegetable.

Thank you Jaime. You made my evening.

I have been mocked for fifteen years for sitting like a girl... but it is how I sit.

Is sitting an 'Act"? By definition, yes.

Also, thank you for answering my question. I almost had a breakdown just now, because I thought I was not communicating properly.

I know I have seen all sorts of stuff online and in groups about how you have to learn certain typical female mannerisms, how to hold your arms, what to do with your hands, how to walk, etc.  But honestly, if you find a spot in a busy place where lots of people are walking by, going about their business and just people watch some, you're liable to find that there is a lot of variation. A lot of female deportment has seemed to have fallen by the wayside over the last few generations and I feel that a lot of those things they say you should do kind of went away with the 50's and 60's.