Quote from: Jaime on January 28, 2012, 11:22:59 PM
I know I have seen all sorts of stuff online and in groups about how you have to learn certain typical female mannerisms, how to hold your arms, what to do with your hands, how to walk, etc.  But honestly, if you find a spot in a busy place where lots of people are walking by, going about their business and just people watch some, you're liable to find that there is a lot of variation. A lot of female deportment has seemed to have fallen by the wayside over the last few generations and I feel that a lot of those things they say you should do kind of went away with the 50's and 60's.

Yup.

This is what I've been asking about.

YES. Everybody is different... but you and I both have sat like girls for years. Why? I dunno? Was it conscious for me to sit that way? No. But once it was pointed out? I still sit that way. It BECAME conscious... and it became an 'Act'. In that case, was acting a BAD THING? No? It was honest. I was consciously acting like ME.

Yeah... "Acting" too girly will out you... but we also act like ourselves. Anything we do is an act. Sometimes it is conscious... sometimes sub.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 28, 2012, 08:18:22 PM
It doesn't matter, if you pass you pass. How you walk won't change a thing.

Well you're right I don't agree. One trans friend of mine -would- be quite passable except she carries herself like a guy. She stands like a guy, she sits like a guy and walks like a guy. You can clock her from across the room, not even being close enough to see what she really looks like, just from the mannerisms.

All of this stuff is learned behavior from watching other people. No one "acts like a girl" in a vacuum. To relearn female mannerisms isn't being any more fake than trying to visually be passable as female is. People pick your gender from a variety of clues, if your mannerisms are male, you BETTER be 100% passable visually.

Quote from: Jaime on January 28, 2012, 11:22:59 PM
I know I have seen all sorts of stuff online and in groups about how you have to learn certain typical female mannerisms, how to hold your arms, what to do with your hands, how to walk, etc.  But honestly, if you find a spot in a busy place where lots of people are walking by, going about their business and just people watch some, you're liable to find that there is a lot of variation. A lot of female deportment has seemed to have fallen by the wayside over the last few generations and I feel that a lot of those things they say you should do kind of went away with the 50's and 60's.

The thing to do is just watch people. Reading "how to act feminine" is pointless. Spend an afternoon at the mall watching people and it's clear men carry themselves differently than women. Yes there is some variation but not as much as between male and female. It's just like working out our voice LISTEN to women and you can hear the difference.

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 28, 2012, 11:32:11 PM
I was going to walk away from this discussion.. But I'll take one more bite at it..

Being a 'man' required conscious thought for me, being a woman doesn't - after all, I am a woman.. There are a few things I've had to learn to remember to do, like smooth down a skirt or dress when I sit down.. But they've all been things I already knew, I just needed to remind myself to do them..

I still don't think 'act' is quite the right word to be using.. Perhaps 'action(s)' was the word you were looking for?

Please don't walk away. It is people like you who make this conversation flow. I do not disagree.

Well, except, as I said earlier, "Act" is the root of "Action". They both mean practically the same thing but, as different types of words, they fit differently in the context of sentences.

We may disagree there... but then you disagree with me and common English.

You needed to REMIND yourself? This is a conscious ACT. This is ACTING your gender role. Since you have more experience, I would love more info from you.

Thank you for sticking around,
Tori

Quote from: Stephe on January 28, 2012, 11:45:42 PM
The thing to do is just watch people. Reading "how to act feminine" is pointless. Spend an afternoon at the mall watching people and it's clear men carry themselves differently than women. Yes there is some variation but not as much as between male and female. It's just like working out our voice LISTEN to women and you can hear the difference.

I agree acting like a GIRL is WAY over the top... but do you not watch them for pointers?

Why would somebody do THAT?

Also, great voice! Why is your voice work important? Is it not a conscious action?

I know I am preaching to the choir here.

@ Kelly Aus

Ok.

Bye.

Although if you are going to talk about the OED definition, the polite thing would be to share it with us all.

I am willing to bet the definition is long and has more than one option.

Not that you will add that now that you are done here...

The OED is a big book. 20 volumes. It is very in depth and if you wish to understand the English language, it is the source most intellectuals prefer.

However, the OED you get on google is the condensed version.

The REAL OED requires payment. Since I am still in Grad school, I have free access.

Trust me, I would not use these words if I did not know what they meant.

Here's an example of a single OED definition (this is "acting"... if you want, I could all add "act" and "action"):

Acting

acting, n.
View as: Outline |Full entryQuotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation:  Brit.    /ˈaktɪŋ/ , U.S. /ˈæktɪŋ/
Forms:  see act v.   and -ing suffix1.
Etymology:  < act v. + -ing suffix1.
Thesaurus »
Categories »

1. The performance of a play, scene, or similar dramatic piece; the art or occupation of performing parts in plays, films, etc. In extended use: the action of feigning a particular emotion, feeling, or personality trait; pretence.
In quot. 1664   as a count noun.

1590    R. Greene Neuer too Late ii. sig. B4v,   Men greedie of gaines did fall to practise the acting of such Playes.
1599    J. Rainolds Overthrow Stage-playes 79   For, to passe over the ingenuousnes of the boy that represented Melantho, opposed to the noblenes of Lentulus who did act Laureolus, the vnlikenes whereof in noblenes, and acting, is disprooved already; [etc.].
1643    Actors Remonstr. 4   We have endevoured, as much as in us lies, to instruct one another in the true and genuine Art of acting.
1664    S. Pepys Diary 2 Dec. (1971) V. 335   The play not good, nor anything but the good actings of Baterton and his wife and Harris.
1763    C. Churchill Rosciad in Poems I. 31   Whose Acting's hard, affected, and constrain'd.
1783    H. Blair Lect. Rhetoric II. xlv. 499   While the acting of the play is interrupted, the Spectator can‥suppose a few hours to pass between every Act.
a1817    J. Austen Persuasion (1818) IV. x. 217   Anne admired the good acting of the friend, in being able to shew such pleasure as she did‥in the actual arrival of the very person whose presence must really be interfering with her prime object.
1856    J. A. Froude Hist. Eng. I. 61   Acting was the especial amusement of the English, from the palace to the village green.
1901    Times 1 June 8/3   For the last half-dozen years they had been spectators of the acting of a farce.
1928    'R. West' Strange Necessity 205   The worst of making war, as of acting for the 'movies', is the amount of waiting around on the lot.
1985    M. F. Norden in B. G. Rose TV Genres iii. 41   Despite Lord's wooden acting and the predictable scripting‥, 'Hawaii Five-O' has been the longest-running police detective show as of this writing.
2004    D. Willett et al. Greece (Lonely Planet) (ed. 6) 71/1   Other bars don't bother with the acting. They target intoxicated males with talk of sex and present them with outrageous bills.
2008    Independent 6 May 16/2   Since hanging up his boots in 1997, the philosophising French fruitcake Eric Cantona has employed his charisma in the field of acting.
(Hide quotations)

Thesaurus »

2. The performance of deeds, continued action, behaviour; (in pl.) actions, conduct.

1596    W. Warner Albions Eng. (rev. ed.) sig. A7v (table of contents)    How the Spanyard in those Tumults drifted for France. The Popes incharitable acting therein.
a1617    J. Melville Mem. Own Life (1735) 267   So to direct my Actings as they might tend to his Glory.
a1655    T. Armitage Tryall of Faith (1661) 249   Shall we goe about to measure the counsell of Gods purpose and his acting from eternity by our crooked rule?
1722    D. Defoe Jrnl. Plague Year 10   Rather for a Direction to themselves to act by, than a History of my actings.
1785    J. Hanway Chimney Sweeper xviii. 118   The 9th article, prohibiting the acting without a licence.
1837    Q. Rev. Apr. 565   This arbitrary and capricious way of acting could not fail to vex and displease those who served under the commission.
a1854    Ld. Cockburn Memorials (1856) iii. 164   The past actings of courts ought not to be merely stated, but to be criticised and appreciated.
1954    Internat. & Compar. Law Q. 3 163   Scots law must be applied to test the honesty of actings concerning a Scots company and by that law the actings were not valid actings of the company.
1982    Times 19 May 6/4   Many of us‥have been deeply disturbed by some of the actings of the Council of Members over the last 48 hours.
1997    R. Patai Jadīd al-Islām v. 72   The details presented in chapters below‥will be a description of the thinking, feeling, and acting of this group.
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3. The process of performing an action; performance, execution.

1598    F. Meres tr. Luis de Granada Deuotion 575   The acting and executing of all the duties of spirituall life.
a1616    Shakespeare Julius Caesar (1623) ii. i. 63   Betweene the acting of a dreadfull thing, And the first motion.
1688    J. Stewart Answer to Let. 25   After the acting of such an unchristian Persecution, [the Church of England] would never have been strong enough nor have had the Hearts to indure the like.
1763    J. Hoole tr. T. Tasso Jerusalem Delivered ii. 41   Mine was the counsel, mine the first design, And the last acting of the deed was mine.
1838    R. M. Bird Peter Pilgrim I. 111   A man can practise no virtue safely: he may write about it, he may talk about it‥; but the acting of it will assuredly bring him into trouble.
1853    F. W. Robertson Serm. 1st Ser. viii. 124   Let impression pass on at once to acting.
1979    A. Potocki tr. Pope John Paul II Acting Person iii. 135   The specific response to the values presented in motivation seems to be indicative of‥what distinguishes acting from any submission to action.
1999    C. McKinnon Character, Virtue Theories, & Vices iv. 114   At the moment of acting, this agent will be unaware of the wickedness of his choices.
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4. The exertion of force or influence; working, activity, operation; an instance of this.

1605    T. Tymme tr. J. Du Chesne Pract. Chymicall & Hermeticall Physicke i. xvi. sig. M,   These Mettals of gold and siluer, when they are wholy fixed and corporeat,‥are destitute of al power of acting or working.
a1616    Shakespeare Measure for Measure (1623) ii. i. 12   That the resolute acting of our blood Could haue attain'd th' effect of your owne purpose.
1647    J. Sprigge Anglia Rediviva i. i. 2   This did but put nature upon more vigorous and industrious actings to defend itself.
1754    J. Edwards Careful Enq. Freedom of Will i. i. 3   There is nothing else in the Actings of my Mind, that I am conscious of while I walk.
1781    J. Moore View Society & Manners Italy II. lxii. 221   He remained ignorant of the structure and manner of acting of some of the principle springs [of the watch].
1833    T. Chalmers On Power of God (1835) I. iv. 173   The actings and reactings that take place between man and man.
1846    H. E. Manning Serm. (ed. 2) II. ii. 30   The continual actings of the desires, lusts, imaginations, leave soils and stains.
1915    Wilson Bull. 27 362   Nor could we detect any muscular acting of the throat, which would indicate regurgitation.
2000    Z. Haznadar & Ž. Štih Electromagnetic Fields, Waves & Numerical Methods vi. 161   The acting of a magnetic force.

I'm just myself now. Before, I was "acting" male, and it was not convincing to anyone. Now, I don't care if I behave as a female (whatever that might mean), I'm just "me".

People like that a lot more, and I like myself a lot more...and people like that, too.

Then you are a good actress.

Quote from: Tori on January 28, 2012, 11:51:11 PM
I agree acting like a GIRL is WAY over the top... but do you not watch them for pointers?

Why would somebody do THAT?

Also, great voice! Why is your voice work important? Is it not a conscious action?

Of course my new voice was a conscious action, but after a while it's now my normal voice without having to think about it. I relearned my walk too but now never even think about it either. We learned to "sound manly" and "act like a man" or at least I know did. Seems silly to not do what every girl does when they are growing up, watch women and learn from their actions.

Like I said, no one learned to "sit like a lady" in a vacuum, whether it was conscious or not, you learn these behaviors from imitating others be it your father/mother or others. We all are "acting like something" when we are just being ourselves. It's what we chose to learn to be like.

Exactly, Stephe.

I am new here but I suspect the people who'll doubt my thesis are the younguns. They get better results on average from hormones and hormones can do a LOT of the work for them.

Obviously when they hear "acting" they think I mean "pretending".

For the rest of us, passing is playing a part. Just a better part than we played before. One that fits us better. But a mature woman needs to know more skills in order to pass...

Quote from: Tori on January 29, 2012, 01:49:38 AM
Exactly, Stephe.

I am new here but I suspect the people who'll doubt my thesis are the younguns. They get better results on average from hormones and hormones can do a LOT of the work for them.

Obviously when they hear "acting" they think I mean "pretending".

For the rest of us, passing is playing a part. Just a better part than we played before. One that fits us better. But a mature woman needs to know more skills in order to pass...

I do not think you mean pretending. I do not in itself think there's anything wrong with acting like a stereotypical "female". All I am trying to convey, is my viewpoint that 'passing', by which I mean being identified as a member of a particular gender as opposed to being identified as a member of your unidentified gender trying to pass off as the other. I think that the mannerisms side of things is confined to perception of personality, not fundamental gender.

That's probably an overly complicated way to say it. And for the record, voice is IMO one of if not perhaps the most important aspect of passing, and it's something that hormones have relatively little influence in.

The only thing I had to really learn was to remember to sit like a lady.. cross my legs.. especially when wearing a skirt..

I also learnt to walk in heels...  and makeup...


but playing the role came naturally.

"All the world's a stage, and we are merely players..."

Having said that, the word "act" and "acting" implies, in normal usage, a pretense or falsity. In legal and medical terms, it is a non-judgmental term which merely indicates who/what is causing an action.

Rather than insisting that "the other side" change their word usage, let's change what we can--our own perception in this discussion. Let's not get our panties in a wad when the word "act" is used in this thread.

just mho, thx

A lot of feminine behaviours arise from anatomy, my mother and sister can sit in positions that I find almost impossible to copy because their much wider pelvic girdle not only allows them to sit in these positions but to do it comfortably for long periods.   



[EDIT to add]  If something is comfortable then people are going to keep doing what they find comfortable.  As genetic females find certain sitting positions comfortable they keep sitting in those positions and they become codified as 'female' mannerisms.   I can sit for quite a while with one leg over the other like the woman in my avatar, but it is not entirely comfortable as my thighs gently squeeze my testicles if I move.  Women with their much wider hips and absence of penis and testicles find this position very comfortable.  A sitting position that I find comfortable which is the V position where the knees are wide apart looks uncomfortable to my mother and sister.  I don't know how many times they have told me when I am wearing a skirt to 'keep your legs together'.    To be ladylike the thighs must be kept very close together at all times, which I find restrictive and a little uncomfortable simply because my male anatomy is designed to find the open 'V' position more natural.   
My point is that with our male anatomy we are always going to find certain mannerisms behaviours difficult and uncomfortable and what is difficult and uncomfortable will be dropped sooner or later.   E.g I may sit with my thighs and calves together when I am with my sister and mother, but as soon as I go to my own room I instinctively widen my legs as far as my skirt will allow.

@ Bev, thank you for your replies.

The reason I have used that vulgar, three letter word, "act" is to separate conscious behavioral changes from hormonal changes in behavior.

It is a discussion I have not seen on these boards so there was no way I could know how people would react to the topic. I really don't think it is as controversial as many have perceived it to be.

I became an actor because being on stage is great medicine for my disphoria. It is a chance to be someone else, and people pay me for doing it. I've played men, women, animals... etc. and society embraces me. Also, it gets me out of the house and in front of the public.

I will use that word more carefully around here in the future... but sheesh... like Ricky Gervais said, "People take offense, they do not give it." I never in a million years would have posted this in order to offend.

I appreciate your help and participation in this discussion, Beverly.

Quote from: Beverley on January 29, 2012, 02:59:13 PM
You are welcome Tori. What sort of stage acting do you do? Are you in any big productions?

Beverley

I love the classics like Shakespeare, Chekhov, Beckett. I love difficult language. I love being able to communicate complex thoughts in old English and still have an audience understand what I am saying and feeling. As you have seen in this thread, words are very important to me. Without using words properly, as they are defined, written communication can get very muddy.

No current projects, aside from my transition.

Shakespearean is not Old English it is actually early modern english. Just sayin'.
Old english is way more complicated.

Yeah, it is a little of both. It was certainly written down in Olde English. The original printings of his complete works were written with the old spellings. Modern versions tend to update the spellings but the antiquated words remain. Nobody has done more to modernize the English language than Shakespeare.