Ooo this is a fun thread. Since I'm one of those odd balls I feel obligated to make a post.

One of the reasons why I don't like labels or physiological diagnosis when it comes to gender is because there exists in the world a lot of variance. This is truth. I live that truth every day, not just because I came into this world transsexual, but I also came into it with not having the "right" body. Beyond just being transsexual, my body doesn't conform 100% to male or 100% to female. I've had screwy hormones from the get-go among other things.

So to me, someone coming along and not understanding how there can be variation, is simply someone who hasn't realized the whole world is actually full of variation. They're wrapped up in text-book definitions and clear-cut labels.

Until science can grow test tube dicks and attach them to you without rejection you're never going to have the "cis male" body you "should have been born with". Actually, even then, you're never going to have the cis male body. An archeologist unearthing your bones thousands of years from now would see female bones and even your remains will be labeled female. Welcome to reality. Yes, there's some "treatments" that exist that will get you close in an outward physical appearance (to be able to live as your chosen gender in society) and for those that are willing to put their bodies and their health on the line in an attempt to "correct" it, that is entirely their choice.

Obviously, I'm one of the people who feel very strongly about my health. This body is the only one I got in this life and no matter what, I'm going to try to live my life as naturally and healthy as possible. I've already been down the drugs and alcohol route because I had hated my body so much I just wanted to cover up reality. Well, that didn't work for me any more than taking extra hormones did (which is also, technically, taking drugs to cover up the reality). So my reality was I had to find other, alternative ways to deal with the situation. I get that there's people out there who would rather be dead than live with their body as-is. I've already been there too, but realized I wanted to live ... "perfect body" or not. I didn't want to die and I didn't want to risk the health I had to obtain something that in my mind, would always have been a band-aid to a much larger issue. I would never have that "perfect body" so for me, it's taken years to get to a place where I'm comfortable in my own skin and that I can live my life and be mostly happy.

Since, like I said, I didn't start out life like many others do - as a healthy, easily-gendered baby, I came to the conclusion that maybe I really am "normal" just the way I am. Maybe for me, being part of both genders (and looking that part) was the most natural thing I could do. I should just "be me" as they say, and that me has female aspects and male aspects. My brain is definitely one of the male aspects. I know for many of us the brain-body difference is what causes most of our problems. We see ourselves one way, but society doesn't, and our bodies not matching what our minds "see" is another whole layer of issues. "Transition" was developed to help society see transsexuals "correctly" and for transsexuals to be more comfortable in their bodies. It's a treatment plan for a set series of symptoms.

Well, for me, I realized I didn't need transition. Yes, a lot of society is still going to deal with me as female even though I don't look 100% female and I certainly don't feel female. But my own personal perspective is that I am mostly male and that actually is the normal, natural me. Someone calling me "ma'am" at the grocery store doesn't actually change that.

I'm well into my 30s right now and to say that I had a rough time of it as a teenager and in my 20s would be a colossal understatement. I was unaware of anything like "transition" when I was younger. Being the hot-headed, easily depressed youth I was I can't say that I wouldn't have snapped at the chance to walk down that path. But I can say in hindsight that I'm really glad I didn't. That's my personal choice and no one but me has to understand it - even though I don't mind explaining why I made the decision and what impact it has on me and my life. I am a living example that there are many different choices that someone who has been dealt these kind of cards in life can have. And also that in my case, years passing gave me perspective and the mental tools to solve some of my problems that I never could get out of a syringe full of hormones. But that's just me. From what I see, that's not the "majority rule" around here.

People make their own choices for many different and personal reasons.

And just as a side note - I know two, male-born individuals who don't give two-sh*ts about their dicks. One says, and I quote, "The damn thing is an annoyance" and the other simply says, "Yeah, it's there, I piss out of it, that's about it." So don't lump every male into that boat that dicks are everything. Once again, there is much variation in the world and making assumptions and broad statements, even if it may be in the majority, still leaves that minority out there where the usual "rules" don't apply. Transsexuals themselves are a minority where the normal rules don't apply.

FTM is simply an additional term created to apply to males in female bodies and yes, the "T", as I understand it, stand for "to" implying there is a transitional path the individual is on from female TO male. This is why I don't personally call myself FTM. I can certainly relate to you all, which is why I come around here. I can call myself transsexual because by definition that does fit, but I don't even like that label either because of the psychological "disorder" implications. I don't feel I have a disorder. I just feel this is the normal, natural state for me. The only actual label so far that I don't mind is simply the descriptor, androgynous. That pretty much fits for me. So I'm an androgynous dude in a somewhat female body who's really into natural health.

ETA
I forgot to mention I've also known many male-born guys who developed "moobs" and are just fine with them.

One thing to keep in mind also is that the transsexual classification was modeled after mtfs. Our bodies, surgeries, and needs aren't perfectly analogous to theirs.

Maybe the term 'transsexual' isn't perfectly accurate for someone who hasn't had genital surgery. But the BMV, SSA, and my workplace all classify me as male, I've altered all my documents, body contours and even body chemistry (top surgery and T). I've changed from a female life to a male one in the eyes of the world. I'd say that's pretty damned transsexual. 

Not that wikipedia is the be-all, end-all but I think the definition of transsexualism they have is pretty accurate:

"Transsexualism is an individual's identification with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with his or her assigned sex. Simply put, it defines a person whose assigned sex at birth conflicts with his or her psychological gender. A medical diagnosis can be made if a person experiences discomfort as a result of a desire to be a member of the opposite sex, or if a person experiences impaired functioning or distress as a result of that gender identification."

Quote from: Nygeel on February 28, 2012, 10:59:36 AM
I've had people say things like "oh, you'll totally pass all the time once you get top surgery" 

Those people are being ridiculous, like someone can tell what your chest looks like, especially if you are wearing layers or something.  That sounds like the people who tell others "Oh, you'll pass so well once you get on T"

Quote from: poptart on February 28, 2012, 12:36:42 PM
I don't understand either. Any cisgendered man's worst nightmare is losing his dick. It's not something they'd be OK with or able to say "out of sight, out of mind" about. But somehow the people on here don't care, and that is astounding to me.

I, too, experience the same level of dysphoria. Can't go more than 5 minutes without thinking about it unless I'm sleeping, high or drunk. When I was pre-T I couldn't function at all -- could barely even get out of bed. My entire life revolves around trying to cope with this

Sorry you feel so dysphoric, but not everyone else does.  Your experience =/= everyone else's  Some of us are perfectly fine with the dicks we've got.

Quote from: Darrin on February 28, 2012, 01:15:56 PM
I hate threads like these because this is what perpetuates the "not trans enough" BS floating around in the trans community. We all feel differently about our bodies and it doesn't make anyone less trans or anything. I don't identify as a cis male or "just a guy". I'm a transmale and embrace my trans experience because I did live as a female for 25 years. That's my personal experience and I respect everyone else's that are different from mine. We all should.....

Same, not everyone ID's as binary or whatever.  We are all different.

Quote from: emil on February 28, 2012, 05:44:01 PM
--     Why would it be wrong for an FTM to be at peace with himself? An FTM doesn't need to feel miserable with himself for the rest of his life to prove he is FTM. Instead, he needs to find his very own way to get to where he feels at peace with himself. The less medical measures need to be undertaken to get there, the better for him, in my opinion.

This so much. 

For me, my intense need was to live as a woman, be treated as a woman and to BE a woman. I know the cisgender model that sex=gender is wrong or I wouldn't exist. I used to buy 100% into the cisgender model and wanted a sex change. Once I figured out that the cisgender model is totally wrong, all I needed to do was deal with being a woman. I've done that, have lived as a woman for several years now and while I am still making some "adjustments" to my body to be more feminine, the -need- to have my sex changed has all but disappeared.

But then again I don't define myself as a transsexual, mainly because of the question you just posed. Who is a "true transsexual" etc is just more buying into the whole broken cisgender model I don't buy into.

I do think it's interesting you have this strong desire to have a males body but say you don't care what people gender you as. Like if you had a penis and no breasts, you'd be fine still being seen and treated as a woman? Or do you think getting your body "fixed" will fix everything at once?

I can't (and wouldn't) speak for anyone else, but I don't honestly give a goddamn about my downstairs region. Maybe its because I'm with someone I know I'd rather die than be without, and he's fine with my bits, and maybe its just because the near-apocalyptic loathing I have for my chest outweighs nearly everything else, but I don't want bottom surgery. At all. Ever.

To me, its not the same at all. Because nobody is going to see my screwed up downstairs besides my boyfriend. Its not like my chest, where I can't go out without layers on, even during the disgustingly hot, humid summer. Its not something that literally interferes with my physical comfort and ability to breathe. Its something I piss out of, and something I, to be blunt, really enjoy my boyfriend being in. So, I'm fine with that.

Is it weird? Hell, yeah its weird. I know its weird. I know I'm a gigantic walking joke, and maybe I'm growing a bit as a person or just becoming cynical in a new and exciting way, but I don't care. Let me be a damn joke. Let me be a fake and a bull->-bleeped-<-ter, and whatever else anyone else thinks up. At this point, it barely registers.

Granted, I'm in a huge minority here. I'd rather cut off my hand then go through HRT, as one of the few tiny blessings I've got is an unusually deep voice. I don't want to look like a walking carpet. And hell, I wear makeup. I'm sure some people one here, though they've never said it, would love to sling "fake" at me, and I don't blame them. I'm not, never have been, and never will be Joe Average.
And I'm totally fine with that.

I have a close relative who is FtM, and has had top surgery, intends to have a hysto, but has no intention to have phalloplasty.  Main reason being he believes the results available currently are problematical at best, and would rather be able to enjoy what he has.  Even if it is not ideal.
It is a totally subjective situation, with no right or wrong involved.

Karen.

Quote from: Andy8715 on February 28, 2012, 11:41:11 PM
Sorry you feel so dysphoric, but not everyone else does.  Your experience =/= everyone else's  Some of us are perfectly fine with the dicks we've got.

I know that's the case and I don't understand how or why. If you are male then why are you fine with being physically female? I understand that there's diversity, but this particular thing confuses me.

Quote from: Stephe on February 28, 2012, 11:54:45 PM
For me, my intense need was to live as a woman, be treated as a woman and to BE a woman. I know the cisgender model that sex=gender is wrong or I wouldn't exist. I used to buy 100% into the cisgender model and wanted a sex change. Once I figured out that the cisgender model is totally wrong, all I needed to do was deal with being a woman. I've done that, have lived as a woman for several years now and while I am still making some "adjustments" to my body to be more feminine, the -need- to have my sex changed has all but disappeared.

But then again I don't define myself as a transsexual, mainly because of the question you just posed. Who is a "true transsexual" etc is just more buying into the whole broken cisgender model I don't buy into.

I do think it's interesting you have this strong desire to have a males body but say you don't care what people gender you as. Like if you had a penis and no breasts, you'd be fine still being seen and treated as a woman? Or do you think getting your body "fixed" will fix everything at once?

it's pretty much the same story with me, except i'm not totally sure if i want to be non op or get it. i was fortunate enough to have an uncle who put away all this money for me because of this. i figure, if he's giving me all this money, maybe i really should go and do it, but i don't see having a vagina making my life significantly better. i'd be more comfortable having the female genitals for sex with the male i want to marry somewhere down the road, but i certainly don't buy into the "i am a real woman because i walk around naked in the women's locker room, and have vajayjay shaving parties with all my girlfriends." cisgender women do NOT care about their vagina that much. in fact, they use it for sex, and of course, the reason some of them say a "real woman" has a vagina is because they are blatantly ignorant about gender and only know enough to use that old standby phrase, that's all.

Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 02:20:48 AM
I know that's the case and I don't understand how or why. If you are male then why are you fine with being physically female? I understand that there's diversity, but this particular thing confuses me.

I'm male so my body is that of a male.  Sure my body doesn't look like an "average guy's" body but then what's average mean anyway.

I think folks that can work that out for themselves are really blessed... well, I was not.

If you're BURNING to have SRS so badly, it IS hard to figure out how some folks can sort that out for themselves... yet it is fine. IT IS JUST FINE also.

At the same time I also have to admit to a 'perception problem' as most any other binary person would, I'm sure. Would I ever be able to wrap my head around it? Maybe with some practice?

Right now, I'm sure short of just that... sad maybe, but true.

Nobody is perfect...
Michélle

Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 02:20:48 AM
I know that's the case and I don't understand how or why. If you are male then why are you fine with being physically female? I understand that there's diversity, but this particular thing confuses me.

*facepalm*

Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 02:20:48 AM
I know that's the case and I don't understand how or why. If you are male then why are you fine with being physically female? I understand that there's diversity, but this particular thing confuses me.

I think you might want to define "physically female" (and "physically male") as you see them. Not everyone is using the same definitions, Poptart. And just about any definitions you come up with are going to leave out a significant percentage of people.

for people who having a hard time understanding the non-binary umbrella point please watch this, its a interesting documentary about diffrent kinds of transgenders.

It dosen't exactly explain all dirrectly the topic of this threat,
however it dose,give a idea of how gender really is so it might be more easy to understand topic like these;

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on February 29, 2012, 12:22:18 PM
Yeah, I've noticed that, while there's this intense effort to classify transsexual as separate from transgender, a lot of people who could be classified as transsexual are opting for the term transgender of their own accord, myself included (though I usually use the shorthand trans).  I've seen others express the exact same reasoning for it as I feel, that there are a lot of extremely bigoted transsexuals saying very hurtful things about transgender people.  Meanwhile, I've only seen people who are more open-minded and accepting of gender variance use the term transgender for themselves. 

Please be aware that when I mention bigoted transsexual people, I am not talking about anyone on this site.  I've seen different opinions about the gender binary on this forum, but I've never seen anything blatantly cruel said in regards to those who don't subscribe to it.  I've mostly seen these opinions on article comments, blogs, and Facebook.

it hurts me pretty bad to see diffrent part of transgender people who arnt able to accept each other.
its like to suport lesbians but not gay men
or homosexuals who dont accept bisexuals, so on so.

I tend to hear the reason to be "that they will just make us look bad" I understand this just comming from frustration but I still fell it ignorant.
ex- mtf who wont accept ->-bleeped-<-s cause male ->-bleeped-<-s will make people belive the mtf is a ->-bleeped-<-, but its not really there fault that the world isnt that good educated, I personally also been mistaken for a lesbian or butch and I really hate it, but its not the lesbians fault or the butch ones.

Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 02:20:48 AM
I know that's the case and I don't understand how or why. If you are male then why are you fine with being physically female? I understand that there's diversity, but this particular thing confuses me.

A forwarning: this is solely my personal opinion, and I do not apply this to anyone else. This is not meant to offend anyone.

Everyone is different, what works for one person doesn't work for others. I am confused by why people do/think certain things all the time, but I understand that I am not that person, and I can never understand fully how they feel. No matter what people say, no one can know what another person thinks and feels. To put it bluntly, you don't really need to know "how" or "why", and probably never will. People are complex creatures. But I understand being confused by others motivations. Am I "okay" with having a female body? No, not really. But its the only one I am going to get, so I want to do right by it and take care of it as I see fit. Being healthy is my number one priority, even if I have a body created by XX chromosomes.

I am one of those who is not dead set on bottom surgery. I want to get in shape, get on hormones, and get top surgery. That's as far as I have gotten. I feel way more dysphoria over my chest and my figure than I do anything below the belt. The only person who sees it is me and my husband and being that we are gay it never gets used anyway so I tend to forget that its there (excluding the visits from the captian). I would do anything to get rid of the Marilyn Monroe shape I have. I would take Anthony Hopkins' figure over mine any day.

Why don't I want bottom surgery? Well, the reasons are as follows: It costs a lot of money to go through surgery, and quite frankly, if I had that kind of money, I would use it to help my family who are struggling to make ends meet. It kills me to see the woman who is like my sister living off of substandard assistance while taking care of her nephew and father, and it kills me to know that there is no money for my brothers to go to college. Even if my family were set, my husband and I could certainly use the money for things that we need. Time is another huge factor. Maybe once I get through my masters and PhD programs and get settled into a teaching career/reach college tenure then I might have the time and desire. At the moment, I cannot afford to take time off. The time needed for recovery after top surgery is already going to be difficult, but I luckily have time to save up and get ready for that. But really, I cannot stand to sit around and do nothing. I am probably overly busy, but I like my life like that. Being productive takes away a huge amount of dysphoria I have, and I feel good about myself knowing that I am productive.

Healing is another huge factor for me. I heal much slower than the average person, and it comes from my past history of being disordered in my eating and bad luck in the genetics department. After I had my wisdom teeth removed, it took me almost four weeks before I was able to eat solid food comfortably and the holes were bleeding for about four days longer than they were supposed to. When I had two ingrown toenails removed it took them a couple weeks before the wounds closed, and even now my nails never have grown back right. Healing after top surgery is going to be painful and difficult enough, though luckily I am small chested and can get key-hole rather than the double, so according to my doctor, it will help with my healing process. Sitting still during that time is going to kill me. I go stir crazy. I hate/am terrified to see what I am like after the energy I will get from T. I doubt I will ever sit down!

I wil be honest that another reason it is not a goal is because of my relationship. My husband is a gay man, and even though I am dickless he treats me like a man. I may be slightly goofy, but he doesn't mind. Despite my love of sweater vests, doofy oversized glasses, and my fanboy-dom over Benedict Cumberbatch, at the end of the day, I am his husband and he never blinks twice at my lack of dick or my chest or my curves. For a long time before I ever dared to utter "trans" even to myself, I was so focused on the idea that being a man meant having a penis. I punished myself with this thought for years, and it was the reason it took me so long to be honest with myself. I know now, thanks to him that I am a man. Yes, some men think that having a penis is the be-all end-all of being male, but I personally don't think so. Not anymore, at least. If someone tells me that they are a man, I will give him the same respect and treatment I would any man. If someone told me they were a woman, then I will treat her as such. If someone walked up to me and said they were third gender, two spirit, androgyne, non-gender or anything else (not familiar with all the catagories, we are a very diverse group!) then I will treat them as such and use their preferred pronouns or titles. Gentials are really a superficial thing to me now, it is the person at their core, no their body that define who they are.

Basically, everyone is different even within a small group like the trans community. I don't understand why someone would ever want to study military history over my chosen focus of idealogical history, but my lack of understanding doesn't make their area of study any less valid or make them any less of a historian. Just because I am gay and have no attraction to women doesn't mean that I think straight men are any less men. I could ask ten people in a row the exact same question and get ten different answers. Every human is odd, quirky and unique but that is the kind of world I like to live in. It makes life much more interesting.

Yeah, I wasn't referring to people who've given up on it because of financial issues or the bad quality of the results or even the long healing time. I mean the people who, if those things weren't factors, still wouldn't get it. The explanation you gave was reasonable and I can understand that; thanks for clarifying, Ayden.

I never said that it makes someone less male. I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.

Quote from: Darrin on February 29, 2012, 09:20:10 AM
*facepalm*

What are you facepalming at?

Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PM
Yeah, I wasn't referring to people who've given up on it because of financial issues or the bad quality of the results or even the long healing time. I mean the people who, if those things weren't factors, still wouldn't get it. The explanation you gave was reasonable and I can understand that; thanks for clarifying, Ayden.

I never said that it makes someone less male. I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.

What are you facepalming at?

I think people who do it for those reasons have the "trans and proud" way of thinking,
the way of not need to prove your a man as long you know yourself, or in some caises as I said, there might also be no need.

there are culture/and amount of people, who can accept you as your gender even without changing,
but in most places around the world its hard to get there and the people who dont fit in of what we expect of men and woman are sure having much more trouble than the ones who do.

Quote from: Natkat on February 29, 2012, 03:30:33 PM
I think people who do it for those reasons have the "trans and proud" way of thinking,
the way of not need to prove your a man as long you know yourself, or in some caises as I said, there might also be no need.

there are culture/and amount of people, who can accept you as your gender even without changing,
but in most places around the world its hard to get there and the people who dont fit in of what we expect of men and woman are sure having much more trouble than the ones who do.

so lets take homones exemple, its a choice whatever you want to take them or not, many do take homones for getting changes they want, but many also do it to be able to pass better and have less to deal with when it comes to explain to people to be a man all the time.

so theres 2 aspects in it, yourself and others around you. If you feel satified with yourself knowing your a man but dont feel you wanna change your body, then there can be a presure from sociaty for you to still do it.
some transfolk simple dont want to do it just to "please" there image, so its a "take me or leave me, im not gonna change to get your acceptense"

Even thought I dont think I could do it myself (cause its way to difficult where im from and I guess many other places to live like that)
I do understand people like that. I myself am not all traditional dressed as male, and people somethimes wonder why I dress so femenine if I really wanna be a boy? but the answer is simple, theres many way of being a man I want to be myself, in my own way, not to be like I nessesarry suposed to be, if I was to be, then I should just had "stayed female". LOL

Gender is between the ears not the legs.. thats why we transition and are enabled to do so.

also we knew we were the gender we believed even before we did one thing.. many can't afford to do that one thing and many are scared and many will take their time to decide..

so whats for you is for you now and may change later as it may change for others..