Annah,
      Count me with lilacwoman because we can PC our way through the uncomfortable reality of what their behavior was concerning knowing other men and what strange flesh means but it is what it is! It was written that it is an abomination in the eyes of God for a man to lay with another man. But lest we get too worked up about that, the entire old testament is a historical review of how incapable anyone is of achieving perfection on their own merit, which leaves us all in the same boat. The ten commandments is the yardstick by which we can all measure how badly we all fall short. The answer to this enormous human cluster F*** is of course Christ!

hmmm in no way does "tasting strange flesh" mean anything. Anything your reading from the Bible can be either be taken literally, or can be taken which ever way it sounds to you. Either way ? SO many meanings. to mean the strange flesh thing doesn't mean homosexuals or lesbians doing it, or anything else.

A literal reading would imply that Lot, a righteous man, did right when he offered his daughters up to be raped.

I personally cannot not accept that, and thus have to read the story understanding that I cannot believe that suggestion that your own children be raped is somehow more righteous than wanting to rape angels.  Yet the town was destroyed an Lot was not.  So I think there must be a bit more than who people wanted to have sex with (or even who people were willing to have rape their daughters).

Lot was well aware that it was better to protect the angels as he was hoping that the townsfolk would recognise the danger of messing with God's mesengers.
It only makes esne to someone who understands we are all descended from Adama and Eve and not from some slime monster from some slime pool.
If you choose to ignore the truth and reality of Sodom and Gomorrah you can take all religion out of the world, level all the religious buildings, burn all the religious writings, erase all religious song and music and make all the religious leaders and workers get a day job.

Of course one bigger problem to most people than Sodom and Gomorrah is where did Cain get a wife.

Quote from: lilacwoman on March 12, 2012, 04:34:42 PM
If you choose to ignore the truth and reality of Sodom and Gomorrah you can take all religion out of the world, level all the religious buildings, burn all the religious writings, erase all religious song and music and make all the religious leaders and workers get a day job.

I don't think that follows, nor is disagreement the same as ignoring truth or reality.  Very smart and educated people (such as yourself) routinely debate these things.

but it does follow as most religions can be taken to be based on fairy tales concocted by layabouts who can spin a fine line of nonsense.

the maharishi who brainwashed many US people had the routine down pat and it was both sad and amusing to see him prattling his lines and gratefully receiving all the worldly goods of the bewitched.

And basically is there any difference to Lot giving his daughters up and the 900? supposedly educated American idiots who gave their children the poison in Jonestown?

 

Religion can be a topic with many strongly held beliefs. But, let's please voice those beliefs without belittling the beliefs of others. Let's avoid the personal and group attacks.

Thanks.

If you choose to ignore the truth and reality of Sodom and Gomorrah you can take all religion out of the world, level all the religious buildings, burn all the religious writings, erase all religious song and music and make all the religious leaders and workers get a day job.

Nah the writings are historical if nothing else, and lots of the music is good, some of it awesome - but if you're taking Creed here, I'm with you - and the buildings can all be converted to other uses.  BUT...I'm having a hard time though imagining the downside of: take all religion out of the world and make all the religious leaders and workers get a day job.  I think the only people who shouldn't have a day job are those with a night job.  Everyone should work.

& The Truth - the reality in so far as the best academics across all the sciences and liberal arts agree - of Sodom and Gomorrah is that most likely they were horribly destroyed, but not for wanting to have sexy time with angles.

Quote from: Slanan on March 12, 2012, 04:28:07 PM
A literal reading would imply that Lot, a righteous man, did right when he offered his daughters up to be raped.

I personally cannot not accept that, and thus have to read the story understanding that I cannot believe that suggestion that your own children be raped is somehow more righteous than wanting to rape angels.  Yet the town was destroyed an Lot was not.  So I think there must be a bit more than who people wanted to have sex with (or even who people were willing to have rape their daughters).

There are some parts of the bible you really shouldn't take 'literally'. While other things mentioned in the Bible are pretty clear what they mean.

Quote from: Connie Anne on March 12, 2012, 06:15:14 PM


Religion can be a topic with many strongly held beliefs. But, let's please voice those beliefs without belittling the beliefs of others. Let's avoid the personal and group attacks.

Thanks.

What I cannot believe is that there are people here who call themselves transgender and use the same misquoted, mistranslated quotes that the homophobes use.

If I was not reading it here, I simply would not believe it.

Quote from: Annah on March 12, 2012, 07:14:07 PM
What I cannot believe is that there are people here who call themselves transgender and use the same misquoted, mistranslated quotes that the homophobes use.

If I was not reading it here, I simply would not believe it.

Forgive me, Annah, but I don't understand you're reply. Could you please elaborate? I don't recall putting any such comments in my request that folks here try to keep their responses civil.

Quote from: Connie Anne on March 12, 2012, 07:27:05 PM
Forgive me, Annah, but I don't understand you're reply. Could you please elaborate? I don't recall putting any such comments in my request that folks here try to keep their responses civil.

I think she may be referring to lilacwoman's posts, but that's just me. They also gave me a homophobic vibe, so yeah.

right. It isn't about the moderator. It's about lilac. She has a tendency of posting things ....well...that are transphobic and homophobic.

If she doesn't like herself then that's her own right. But my point is, don't bend text around to make a group of people look vile when they even admitted that they don't even read it.

Jason, Annah: thank you for the clarification. I was confused as it was my post that was quoted.

From what I've seen thus far, there have been multiple posts by multiple posters that could be considered to be in violation of the rules. So, I'm formally requesting that all parties concerned be more civil.

Thank you.

the bible 

Well, I haven't studied the Bible in a formal academic approach like Annah, but I have made a study of religion and myth simply out of amateur personal interest. I have found that whether you are talking about the Bible, the Quran, the Torah, or even the Enuma Elish, these ancient tales can only really be truly appreciated and understood if you interpret them in the contexts of the times and cultures in which they were written.

Language and culture evolve over time such that the definitions, grammar, metaphors, and other literary paradigms in use during one time period can become completely different a few thousand years later. As such, trying to interpret an ancient text from a modern paradigm can lead to some serious false conclusions. For example, a common metaphor in today's society is to say that it "rained cats and dogs". If a future historian five thousand years from now were to interpret that phrase from the point of view of it being "the literal words of the 21st century prophets", she might think felines and canines fell from the skies until the grounds was covered with oodles of poodles and puddles of pussycats when that is patently not what is intended by the metaphor. Heck, I have seen people get into fistfights over the proper interpretation of the Second Amendment to the US Constitution, and that is a single, very concise passage written a mere 2 centuries ago, not thousands of years in the past.

I will say that the Bible as I understand it now is a very different book from what I was taught in Sunday School as a child.

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, I think the whole point of the story is that we should treat each other honestly, respectfully, and with good will lest we suffer the consequences.

Peace, y'all.

Quote from: Dana_H on March 13, 2012, 01:20:14 AM
Well, I haven't studied the Bible in a formal academic approach like Annah, but I have made a study of religion and myth simply out of amateur personal interest. I have found that whether you are talking about the Bible, the Quran, the Torah, or even the Enuma Elish, these ancient tales can only really be truly appreciated and understood if you interpret them in the contexts of the times and cultures in which they were written.

Language and culture evolve over time such that the definitions, grammar, metaphors, and other literary paradigms in use during one time period can become completely different a few thousand years later. As such, trying to interpret an ancient text from a modern paradigm can lead to some serious false conclusions. For example, a common metaphor in today's society is to say that it "rained cats and dogs". If a future historian five thousand years from now were to interpret that phrase from the point of view of it being "the literal words of the 21st century prophets", she might think felines and canines fell from the skies until the grounds was covered with oodles of poodles and puddles of pussycats when that is patently not what is intended by the metaphor. Heck, I have seen people get into fistfights over the proper interpretation of the Second Amendment to the US Constitution, and that is a single, very concise passage written a mere 2 centuries ago, not thousands of years in the past.

I will say that the Bible as I understand it now is a very different book from what I was taught in Sunday School as a child.

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, I think the whole point of the story is that we should treat each other honestly, respectfully, and with good will lest we suffer the consequences.

Peace, y'all.

I could not agree more

When I hear religious arguments I usually end up thinking that people are worshiping themselves far more than they are worshiping god.

Quote from: Annah on March 12, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
right. It isn't about the moderator. It's about lilac. She has a tendency of posting things ....well...that are transphobic and homophobic.

I had noticed this too. I find it offensive.

for transphobic and homophobic read 'uncomfortably close to home'