Actually, I don't think the thread should be really looking at calling anyone the scourge and 'blight' of the community, I do see both sides of the argument here though, good point that, if you expect to be treated as a woman by people you meet in society, you have to look and sound 'right' and not look as people 'so' often tell you, the word freak, or a joke, or some pervert. But equally, its also a blight to live up to other peoples expectations of what THEY actually perceive to be correct for that gender. Of Course all men and women are not exactly the same, and neither are voices, so if you can at least get your voice within the female range, then of course it will pass in public. If choose to do nothing with your voice, then you best get prepared for some awkward looks and even horrible comments or reactions from people.

But seriously ? you are going to do some thing about that male voice aren't you ? why would you go through the transition, and NOT change that one part of yourself, that is just as important as the make-up you are going to be wearing. 

(Heh, some of us women don't wear makeup . Please don't tell anyone...)

Quote from: Samantharz on March 13, 2012, 11:50:00 AM
You should care about what society thinks. Because Society may cast you out, assault you and possibly even murder you. It's really for your own safety that you should "blend" with society.

I don't anyone is going to die here. If you live somewhere where people will kill you just because of your voice, please move.

Lol yes, please do.

Quote from: Stephe on March 13, 2012, 08:33:33 PM
I don't anyone is going to die here. If you live somewhere where people will kill you just because of your voice, please move.

The voice is a red flag the overall situation. If you have a Tom Waits voice, and people clock you as being transsexual, there's a very real possibility of being shunned or assaulted. "Please move" implies that you can escape it. There are bigots EVERYWHERE, don't become complacent. If you feel that you want to live your life as a woman with a deep voice and potentially get "clocked" wherever you go, more power to you, I pray to the FSM for your safety. But I feel it's a transwoman's obligation to work on her voice.

If you want to live as and be perceived as a woman (which is what "passing" is), then you have an obligation to yourself to work on your voice. The only reason I think people take the stance of "I'm proud of my male voice" is because finding your female voice is hard, it takes work. In our microwave society where everything is instant, working hard on something is not usual. So because people don't want to work on their voice, because it's hard, they say things like "I'm proud of my male voice!" and "The world can deal with it."

The world doesn't have to deal with it. It's your problem, not theirs. It's YOUR obligation to conform to the standard image of what a female is to fit into their society, not their obligation to change their standard.

I'm not saying that it's right. I'm saying that this is the way it is, it always has been, and probably always will be.

Opinions are just that. Opinions.

And everybody has one.

This is a fascinating topic.

Too bad, once again at Susan's, people say "everybody" when they mean "in my opinion". Then others get upset...

The Circle of Susan's...

Without being perfectly PC, conversation goes down the drain here. But WHO is perfectly PC?

It is SO easy to get people riled up here. Oy!

Next, the finger pointing will begin...

Quote from: Samantharz on March 13, 2012, 11:26:43 PM
The voice is a red flag the overall situation. If you have a Tom Waits voice, and people clock you as being transsexual, there's a very real possibility of being shunned or assaulted.

I am 6'5.  The tone and timbre of my voice will never be a first indicator regarding my "overall situation."

Quote"Please move" implies that you can escape it. There are bigots EVERYWHERE, don't become complacent. If you feel that you want to live your life as a woman with a deep voice and potentially get "clocked" wherever you go, more power to you, I pray to the FSM for your safety. But I feel it's a transwoman's obligation to work on her voice.

Transitioning, for me, does not imply that I will live the rest of my life looking over my shoulder in some kind of bizarre, semi-constant fear state.  While I am not dismissing the propensity for bigoted violence, I'll not be ruled by it either.  I hope other people feel the same way.  It just strikes me, personally, as counter-intuitive to put forth the time and effort to feel at peace, only to have that peace dominated by constant fear.

QuoteIf you want to live as and be perceived as a woman (which is what "passing" is), then you have an obligation to yourself to work on your voice. The only reason I think people take the stance of "I'm proud of my male voice" is because finding your female voice is hard, it takes work. In our microwave society where everything is instant, working hard on something is not usual. So because people don't want to work on their voice, because it's hard, they say things like "I'm proud of my male voice!" and "The world can deal with it."

Living and being perceived as a woman is not so narrow as I feel you're defining it.  I get what you're driving at, and agree to a certain extent, but also feel that there are as many grey areas here as there are individuals and their reasons for going through this process. 

QuoteThe world doesn't have to deal with it. It's your problem, not theirs. It's YOUR obligation to conform to the standard image of what a female is to fit into their society, not their obligation to change their standard.

I'm not saying that it's right. I'm saying that this is the way it is, it always has been, and probably always will be.

The only absolute "obligations" I have involve taxes and mortality.  You're playing fairly loose with semantics while making some pretty blunt strokes with a one-size-fits-all brush.  There are so many potential mitigating factors, unique to each individual, that have the potential to fly in the face of your absolutes it is stunning.

The world does have to deal with it, at least my corner of the world while I am in it.  On my terms as well as their own.  How each of us carries ourselves before, during and always is going to be tailored and tempered by where, who and what we are and will absolutely evolve as our experience grows, changes and moves forward. 

"Your problem"..."their society".....as if by default, the two are mutually exclusive and we are no longer a part of that same society.  By implying that we are not somehow still included in society, that by seeking reconciliation between our inner and outer selves, we've abandoned our rights of inclusion?  That is just as bigoted as anything crafted and intentionally aimed to make someone feel "less-than" for walking this path. 

I'm sure you did not intend it in such a disparaging and insulting fashion, but these kind of misunderstandings often occur when discussing things people feel strongly about.

Food for thought though, food for thought.

-Miki

Hmmmm I don't think there's any obligation that trans women have to try to get a female voice.

I think it's a trans woman's own choice whether to keep using her male voice, knowing that she'll be thought of as male a lot of the time.
If she thinks that's okay, it's fine with me too.
However, I wouldn't be very interested if she complains about people not treating her as female...

 The only concern I can think of is that keeping a male voice will help to counteract the small, yet growing, belief that trans people are just as normal as the rest of the world.

It's unfortunate, but negative influences speak louder than positive ones because of the image cis people have of us due to the media.

I will say this though... your female voice is not fake; no-one's is. To do that voice is to literally reclaim the voice that was lost at puberty. It's about recovering a birth right that was taken away from you in a tragedy.

There is nothing fake about wanting to have something that one has lost - there is only happiness, a sense of accomplishment, and the knowledge that yet another one of us has conquered the odds.

The voice is a big deal. If you look at movies, or video games, a posessed character will often retain the voice of whoever is controlling the body. in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Ganondorf took over Zelda's body, and despite looking like the most beautiful woman ever, you knew it was Ganondorf. The voice is representative of the soul.

Some may not have cringed when they spoke in their male voices, and some may not have been as silent as possible to avoid hearing it. But overall, I don't see how it could be anything but the most honest thing you can do for your presentation - you are shaping a voice that will help people correctly recognize your soul as matching a female body.

I have changed my mind I guess. Keeping a male voice is hard to justify - generally, it's out of fear of failure to make the female voice, or lack of dedication to perform the steps necessary. Those aren't good reasons to keep a male voice... they are merely nuisances that can be pushed aside.

- Kelly

It's frustrating to sit here and have people tell me "the reason why you're doing this is..."

I'm using my voice because it's my voice. I don't think of it as "my male voice", because I don't have a "female voice" I'm not using - I just have my voice.

I'm done with "passing". I've spent my entire life "passing" (poorly) as a man, out of fear, and all that's got me is the humiliation and beatings that people here seem to think I'm going to get now instead. Been there, done that. I'm not pretending any more, and for me, putting on a voice that's not mine would be pretending. If you have a female voice that you aspire to or is important to you, then it makes obvious sense to do something to attain that. But my experience is that being myself (and accepting myself) and being honest and up front is what gets me accepted. And for me, putting on a different voice would not be that.

By the time I finish transitioning, I'm going to be a big hippy dyke. I won't be wearing makeup, or dresses, or heels, because I don't like them or feel comfortable in them. I'll be being me, and therefore I don't need other people to validate me as a woman, I just am one.

I have worked very, very hard for my voice. Changing my voice back to where it should have been, was one of the biggest changes needed for me to even have a chance at peace with myself. And I pass very well for a girl who is six foot tall and who has only been on HRT for six months. I think a large part of that reason has to be because my is starting to sound, not just passing, but naturally female. I still have a ways to go, but I know I will get there.

Personally, I could not have transitioned without changing my voice. Ironically, I loved the sound of my male voice, just not on me. If a woman wants to pass, want's to blend into cis society, then voice should be a huge focus in her transition.

But if blending in is not your intent, if you find a source of strength and pride in re-defining what it means to sound like a woman, then I'm fine with that. I can honestly see this debate has many parallels to the non-op V. post-op debate. Let us all take a step back, let us re-examine this situation, and question why we feel the way we do on the subject. No transition is the same. We are all appropriating our bodies to varying to degrees of comfort. Don't throw stones simply because your perception of a situation is different from another. We are much, much stronger in our collection of differences, than in our collections of similarities.

A lot of people say they are tired of pretending to be someone they're not, and they're not going to hide that they're a lesbian/dress like a dyke/have male hobbies/don't want to change their voice. It seems like a common complaint around here.

And I'm really not trying to be rude but it's kind of hard to understand at that point, why not just stay a man?

As a man you:
-Don't need a high voice
-Aren't expected to wear feminine clothes
-Don't have to have girly haircuts
-It's totally normal to like women
-No worries about men hitting on you
-You won't have to divorce your wife or whatever and maybe lose your job and all that
-You won't have to put any effort in at all anymore

If you call yourself a woman, why is it weird for people to expect that means you want to be feminine? There's always androgynous labels instead if those are more accurate, too.

On the other hand, as a woman you:
-Don't need a high voice
-Aren't expected to wear feminine clothes
-Don't have to have girly haircuts
-It's totally normal to like women
etc.



Why is it so hard to get the reality, which is that there are already millions of women in the world who are happily living not as femme girly girls? It's not a requirement. You be the woman you are, and let me be the woman I am, please.

Quote from: pretty on March 14, 2012, 03:09:51 AM
As a man you:
-Don't need a high voice
-Aren't expected to wear feminine clothes
-Don't have to have girly haircuts

So my cisfemale wife is supposed to transition to male since she never did any of these things?  NO ONE gets to define who is and isn't trans.  I'd say we're dangerously close to being ->-bleeped-<-r than thou, but honestly we're actually already there in this thread.

I am a lesbian and wear jeans and a tee more often than skirts with a nice blouse.  I do wear foundation and lipstick but rarely much else (and it is always at least as much makeup as my GG wife has and usually MORE).  I do believe that voice is important, but I don't ever believe that we have a right to define others.

Now here is the funny part.  I've always (my entire life) been ma'am/miss on a phone call.  I actually even worked in a telemarketing call center for a few days between college and grad school.  I only worked a few days because I got chewed out when I called an old lady who was a touch senile and thought she owed me money because I didn't take advantage of her and sell her more magazines with the card number she offered and quit in disgust.  But while I worked there I got miss the entire time.

It is funny though if I get excited I'm more prone to get read so I'm trying to better pace my speech.

Please for the people throwing around THOU SHALTs look at what you are saying.  NO ONE has a right to define another person.  A person is transsexual if they say they are - that is the only requirement we should be using.

Quote from: pretty on March 14, 2012, 03:09:51 AM
And I'm really not trying to be rude but it's kind of hard to understand at that point, why not just stay a man?

As a man you:
-Don't need a high voice
-Aren't expected to wear feminine clothes
-Don't have to have girly haircuts
-It's totally normal to like women
-No worries about men hitting on you
-You won't have to divorce your wife or whatever and maybe lose your job and all that
-You won't have to put any effort in at all anymore

Hehe, I AM staying a man.... but still transitioning

I want to have a sexy voice
But I want feminine clothes.
I want girly haircuts.
I don't like women.
I want men to hit on me!
I don't have a wife and have no professional issues still.
What is wrong with a little effort?

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with being androgynous... nor is there anything wrong with HRT for andro people. But I disagree with the voice presentation not being necessary to be a girl... there are "cis" women I know that I've questioned whether they're cis, simply due to voice. The only reason I would think they're cis is one is my bosses wife and he's transphobic, and the other was a customer who had children... which I guess could've been sperm banked, that's why I still think of her and wonder to this day, even though I haven't seen her in years....

You don't have to have a high voice to pass as female. But if you look remotely male, act male, like masculine stuff, dress masculine, resent a majority of femininity, and you want the general public to say "she" when referring to you, good luck! I'm with you and support you 100%, but I could never expect society to be so lenient to me.

However androgyny, from my knowledge... doesn't give a crap about which gender they're labeled as so IDK why an androgynous person would care about this argument in a personal sense.

Because it feels like you're labelling any woman who isn't feminine as androgynous.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on March 14, 2012, 07:37:07 AM
There's nothing wrong whatsoever with being androgynous... nor is there anything wrong with HRT for andro people. But I disagree with the voice presentation not being necessary to be a girl... there are "cis" women I know that I've questioned whether they're cis, simply due to voice. The only reason I would think they're cis is one is my bosses wife and he's transphobic, and the other was a customer who had children... which I guess could've been sperm banked, that's why I still think of her and wonder to this day, even though I haven't seen her in years....

You don't have to have a high voice to pass as female. But if you look remotely male, act male, like masculine stuff, dress masculine, resent a majority of femininity, and you want the general public to say "she" when referring to you, good luck! I'm with you and support you 100%, but I could never expect society to be so lenient to me.

However androgyny, from my knowledge... doesn't give a crap about which gender they're labeled as so IDK why an androgynous person would care about this argument in a personal sense.

You might want to look at the gender markers for the people that have been replying.  Almost all of them are F.  Your believe is not necessary only theirs is.  Your suspicion of "cis" women is just your personal judgement and it reflects on you not them.

I just got off the phone with my new endo referral and his wife was telling me how their office operated (non-insurance - submit myself and get check from insurance).  She also asked me to forward my latest Pap smear and mammogram results.  I didn't come out to her since it isn't really any of her business and the dr will have all my other test results anyway, so I just said I haven't recently had those tests.  She then told me that was ok and he would do it there.  So evidentially I passed on the phone because I am not the only trans-person they monitor [he is evidentially one of the few endos in the area that works with transpatients which is why my PCP was still monitoring me till now].

But now you've expanded the attack that we're not women really.  Now looking male or dressing masculine means you are androgynous?  I'm 5'11" with a large frame.  Even after FFS and a BA I'm still large enough to look remotely male.  As I said I usually wear jeans and a tee with a denim overshirt.  So because I've got a big frame and not wearing a dress I'm androgynous?

Quote from: Miki on March 14, 2012, 01:52:43 AM
Transitioning, for me, does not imply that I will live the rest of my life looking over my shoulder in some kind of bizarre, semi-constant fear state.  While I am not dismissing the propensity for bigoted violence, I'll not be ruled by it either.  I hope other people feel the same way.  It just strikes me, personally, as counter-intuitive to put forth the time and effort to feel at peace, only to have that peace dominated by constant fear.

Most don't.

I have noted there seems to be a group of trans people obsessed with this idea that it is "pass or you will be murdered" deal. Yes there are stats showing being trans = more like to be attacked but none of these factor in the % of these attacks that occur because of high risk behavior. I feel almost all of this higher % of risk is based on many of these trans people being sex workers and/or playing the "I'm gonna date st8 guys and not tell them" and the reaction from discovery. Some project this false concept that being trans walking down the street is a high risk behavior. I'm sure glad I don't live my life in fear like this.

Quote from: Jeneva on March 14, 2012, 07:17:50 AM
I'd say we're dangerously close to being ->-bleeped-<-r than thou, but honestly we're actually already there in this thread.

I want to apologize if my comments came off that way. Everyone has different needs and goals for their lives. I know mine have changed as I have changed and likely will some more. I sure don't feel I am more or less than any one else here. I just was trying to convey that for me changing my voice did more as far as meeting my goal of being seem as a woman by more people than HRT did. YMMV of course.