Quote from: Naturally Blonde on April 13, 2012, 11:57:28 AM
Maybe men are more 'Macho' in the USA? 

Could be

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on April 13, 2012, 09:55:15 AM
Ok, so why didn't you provide an alternative like 'were you submissive and weak and feminine' in your question, then I could then relate to the question more.

I have no idea what "male privlilege" means and I have no experience of being a 'dominant strong male' and I detested any male conditioning and didn't comply with it.  Many of us came through a totally different route and find it hard to relate to your dominant male viewpoint.

I really don't think you do understand what the term means because if has nothing to do with being submissive and weak and feminine OR being dominant strong and masculine.

Did you bother to look at the wikipedia link explaining what the term even means? It has absolutely nothing to do with male conditioning or you acting any way whatsoever. Many men have no clue they even have it. I didn't realize it was really there until I started living as a woman. And trust me I was never strong and masculine either. It is something I lost but I'm fine with that.

Now if you have presented as female from birth, yes you never had male privilege, otherwise you have had it and had no say so in the matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege

Quote from: Stephe on April 13, 2012, 12:00:20 PM

I really don't think you do understand what the term means because if has nothing to do with being submissive and weak and feminine OR being dominant strong and masculine.

Did you bother to look at the wikipedia link explaining what the term even means? It has absolutely nothing to do with male conditioning or you acting any way whatsoever. Many men have no clue they even have it. I didn't realize it was really there until I started living as a woman. And trust me I was never strong and masculine either. It is something I lost but I'm fine with that.

Now if you have presented as female from birth, yes you never had male privilege, otherwise you have had it and had no say so in the matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege

My point was we don't all fit into the boxes. I am however aware that men usually get paid more than women which is a 'male  privilege'. 

What she's saying is that male privilege isn't something that you engage in yourself, on a conscious or subconscious level. 

It's a set of perceptions and standards that are applied to you by other people. 

There is no box, as you do not define what the parameters of male privilege are as they apply to you, other people do.

-Miki

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on April 11, 2012, 05:34:21 PM
See that's why I never wanted male privilege... You have to achieve stuff. Yuck.

This I don't get. If I had kids I'd want my daughter to achieve just as much as I'd want my son to achieve. What does that have to do with privileges?

Quote from: Sub-Zero on April 13, 2012, 03:47:13 PM
This I don't get. If I had kids I'd want my daughter to achieve just as much as I'd want my son to achieve. What does that have to do with privileges?

Nothing.

Male privilege is a term that refers to special rights or status granted to men in a society, on the basis of their sex or gender, but usually denied to women. It has nothing to do with ability or achievement.

Thank you Beverley, I thought it was just me not understanding.

Quote from: Stephe on April 13, 2012, 12:00:20 PM

Now if you have presented as female from birth, yes you never had male privilege, otherwise you have had it and had no say so in the matter.

Privilege suggests some kind of benefit or special entitlement. If you didn't receive that benefit or entitlement then you didn't have that privilege. Not all men benefit from being male, thus not all men have male privilege.

Some do, and the fact that they do is incredibly unfair, but trying to stick a label of privilege on all men is just as bad. Stop it.

I nevr had privileges of any kind, especially male ones. I just tried to coope with few male friends never being able to fit into anything, mostly wasting time. Oh i really don't miss that. Just now I am starting to fight from the right perspective and it takes times but i do get some help, nor privileges just normal tenderness or humanity, that I give back when it's my turn to give to people having tough times just as me.

Quote from: Skyanne on April 13, 2012, 05:00:26 PM
Privilege suggests some kind of benefit or special entitlement. If you didn't receive that benefit or entitlement then you didn't have that privilege. Not all men benefit from being male, thus not all men have male privilege.

And how would you know unless you are clairvoyant? And if you don't think males are -given- special rights, you aren't being realistic.

And I find it hard to believe anyone can believe they will be treated no differently if they present as a man or a woman. I've found a huge chasm of difference in how I am treated after transition. Some good, some not so good. 

And that if you look like a man to someone else, they aren't going to give you the same treatment they give other men? And somehow know you're really a woman inside that they can't see, so they don't extend this special treatment reserved for men because you don't want it?

Look I realize it's all PC to say "I never had male privilege" as a trans person. The fact is: if you ever presented as male you were afforded male privilege even if you didn't want it. It's not a choice for you to make because it's how other people think. You can't control that.

Quote from: Skyanne on April 13, 2012, 05:00:26 PM
Privilege suggests some kind of benefit or special entitlement. If you didn't receive that benefit or entitlement then you didn't have that privilege. Not all men benefit from being male, thus not all men have male privilege.

Some do, and the fact that they do is incredibly unfair, but trying to stick a label of privilege on all men is just as bad. Stop it.

It's not some made up phenomenon or arbitrary label.  You'd never know if you received consideration in this vein. 

You're getting hung up on the word "privilege" here by seeing it an active benefit that can be sought out, controlled, accepted or denied.

It is an entirely passive cultural behavior exhibited by others towards males and is 100% outside your ability to control, govern or deny if you are a male existing in that culture.

-Miki

Quote from: Stephe on April 13, 2012, 09:15:26 PM

And that if you look like a man to someone else, they aren't going to give you the same treatment they give other men? And somehow know you're really a woman inside that they can't see, so they don't extend this special treatment reserved for men because you don't want it?

I think the only important point of this is that they don't aggressively hit on you (usually--I have had some strange incidents, as well as of course occasionally passing as female while presenting male).

Men "palling around" with me always made me really anxious and uncomfortable. I avoided men for that reason. When I went to school for a couple semesters, I ended up in a night class full of men. They would just tell grotesquely misogynistic jokes and stories with each other and rather than be present for that "special treatment" I would go for walks on breaks. It does even out a bit though, because I had the privilege of at least not being the target of their misogyny. The other girl in that class did, as well as the female teacher. Though it was behind their back.

Still, I think that just because you have male privilege doesn't mean it benefits you. Or at least not to a useful degree. If you're in some masculine industry, yeah. If you never leave your house, not really. If all your friends are girls, not really. If you shy away from men, again, not really.

And I think, for a trans woman, it's hard to think of male privilege as much more than just icing on a vomit-inducing cake. It's like, "yeah, you hate being male and it's awful, but here's a couple little advantages for you to ponder!" When at the same time, there is an underside of male privilege that you notice most when you don't have a masculine personality.

So my real point here is that I think talking about this issue with trans women is a bit divisive. It doesn't really matter what we think of male privilege because it's just a part of the bundle that we would happily trade off to set things right  . That is not an endorsement of the existence of male privilege, it is what it is. But again, it doesn't matter because whether it exists or not it doesn't change who we are.

Quote from: Skyanne on April 13, 2012, 05:00:26 PM
Privilege suggests some kind of benefit or special entitlement. If you didn't receive that benefit or entitlement then you didn't have that privilege. Not all men benefit from being male, thus not all men have male privilege.

Some do, and the fact that they do is incredibly unfair, but trying to stick a label of privilege on all men is just as bad. Stop it.

Let me give you an example.

At one point we needed to get another car so we went to a small dealer and picked out the car we wanted, did the test drive. I told the salesman that it was for my wife (who was standing beside me - I was male at the time) so she needed to test drive it. He went and got the keys and gave them to ME.

When we purchased the car both of us where together and I had not brought my wallet but she had her handbag. So SHE paid for the car with her bank card. The salesman then got out the paperwork to be filled in. "What is your wife's name?" he asked ME. She was right there and had just spent a few thousand.

That is male privilege and I was getting it in bucket loads.

Quote from: pretty on April 13, 2012, 11:45:56 PM


And I think, for a trans woman, it's hard to think of male privilege as much more than just icing on a vomit-inducing cake.

   Cake!!   

 

What about female privilege? about 13 years ago before I started transitioning I used to make deliveries in a van. Men used to unload and carry all the parcels for me obviously thinking I was female. I did nothing and just thanked them for their help!

Quote from: Stephe on April 13, 2012, 09:15:26 PM
And I find it hard to believe anyone can believe they will be treated no differently if they present as a man or a woman. I've found a huge chasm of difference in how I am treated after transition. Some good, some not so good. 

This a completely different thing to male privilege, of course men and women are treated differently. The concept of male privilege is that men all occupy a privileged position in society which is completely wrong.

If you just want to say that men and women are treated differently, then that's fine, I completely agree. If you want to say that anyone who ever presented as male received privilege above and beyond what women receive, you're talking complete and utter non-sense.

Quote from: Miki on April 13, 2012, 10:06:20 PM

You're getting hung up on the word "privilege" here by seeing it an active benefit that can be sought out, controlled, accepted or denied.

-Miki

No, you're mistaken. I'm entirely aware of the conept, I'm just pointing out that it's a generalisation, and like pretty much all generalisations does not stand up to scrutiny. Not all men receive privilege above and beyond what women receive, and in fact in some cases female privilege exceeds that which is received by men.

I realise it's easy to invent a magic concept that can't be disproved because you don't know you're receiving it, unfortunately the inability to disprove something is not how 'proof' works, you need to be able to demonstrate that someone has -benefited- from their gender in a way they would never have received if they were the opposite gender.

You simply cannot do this for all men ever, thus male privilege as a concept is flawed. Some men are privileged, not all men.

Quote from: Skyanne on April 14, 2012, 10:04:36 AM
This a completely different thing to male privilege, of course men and women are treated differently. The concept of male privilege is that men all occupy a privileged position in society which is completely wrong.

If you just want to say that men and women are treated differently, then that's fine, I completely agree. If you want to say that anyone who ever presented as male received privilege above and beyond what women receive, you're talking complete and utter non-sense.

  Then how exactly are they treated different if one doesn't receive treatment the other is denied and vice versa? That is the very definition of privilege.

Again I know it's not all "TG PC" and girly to admit you ever got any male privilege so keep telling yourself you never did.. It's not the first time I've seen MTF do this.

Quote from: Stephe on April 14, 2012, 10:21:56 AM
  Then how exactly are they treated different if one doesn't receive treatment the other is denied and vice versa? That is the very definition of privilege.

Again I know it's not all "TG PC" and girly to admit you ever got any male privilege so keep telling yourself you never did.. It's not the first time I've seen MTF do this.

Being treated differently does not imply a privilege, the definition of privilege is that you receive a -benefit-.

Since transitioning, I am now better paid, better treated and protected by numerous anti-discrimination laws. I'm sorry, but the politically correct thing here is to go with the flow and pretend men get everything handed to them on a plate, but it's simply not true.

You can keep telling yourself all people who presented as male received some kind of benefit from it, but your arguement for this seems to resolve around 'ya-huh you did too', and since I'm older than five, colour me unconvinced.

That's it might be widespread does not make it universal - lots, and lots and lots of other mitigating factors in there, like race, social class, culture, and physical attractiveness.

If you think that the boy who is overweight, kinda not-bright, all sorts of asthma wheezy, who's parents don't buy him the cool kid clothes (not that they make them in those sizes) is getting some sort of 'privilege' above that of say the cheer-leading girls you'd be wrong.

Where exactly is the 'privilege' in being the last one picked in gym everyday - usually after a fight about who 'has to' take them, " Yeah, well if we have to have Steve then we get two more guys too", EVERYDAY FOR YEARS - who gets pantsed once a week and tossed into the girls bathroom, and has their lunch money ripped off on a constant basis?

Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort?  How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?

To be honest, yes! I live in Northwestern U.S. and enjoyed outdoor sports, saltwater fishing, shooting at the local range, and although I have never killed anything, hunting. I went with several fellows and enjoyed the crisp cold Autumn air, the camaraderie and a few drinks around the camp fire at night. I wanted to be able to stand up and pee on a tree rather than have to do the squat and drip dry method. Then there's the questions I would be faced with like, "What happened to your dick?" Those days are pretty much over since I made my choice. Although there are an increasing number of women engaged in shooting competitions these days and they are good at it because of superior hand/eye coordination. I don't have any regrets!