Quote from: Skyanne on April 14, 2012, 10:04:36 AM
You simply cannot do this for all men ever, thus male privilege as a concept is flawed. Some men are privileged, not all men.

Alright, I buy that, but do not at all buy into the premise that you can decide or determine for yourself if it has ever been applied to you or not.  You have no way of knowing.

The OP did not ask if the concept of male privilege was universal, justified or politically correct.

The OP asked if anyone had personal experience with the concept and if that experience influenced their transition in any way.

Your answer seems to be "no" while mine was "yep!"

No harm, no foul in both being true and equally valid

-Miki

1. Stop thinking you're intruding, duh.

2. Where I live, there's no such thing as a male privilege, except maybe a traditional preference for males in high, leading jobs like directors and politicians... even though it's changing as the old men are retiring.

Actually, I've only ever hit a female privilege that I lacked. It's not exactly a positive thing, but nowadays, females are stereotypically regarded as superwomen who can take care of children alone, work and imply themselves in their community, all responsibly, whilst males are supposedly sexual, aggressive and misadapted people who can only barely manage a job, failing to take care of housework efficiently. It's like men are women's children. It's not to such an extent, and it's not in everyone, but it's sort of the idea that's going around. Like it's revenge for past sexism.

Females are more regarded than males in many sectors, be it social relations or even work. For example, a theatre once turned me back saying that they didn't hire guys.

Also, females who work in traditionally male environments (computers, mechanical and construction workers, truck driving) are usually encouraged, whilst males in the opposite position (secretaries, nurses, children guardians) are generally disregarded ("it's gay!") or distrusted ("you'll rape my children!")

All that to say that no, I don't feel I'm losing any male privilege.

Quote from: Miki on April 14, 2012, 12:29:49 PM
Your answer seems to be "no" while mine was "yep!"

No harm, no foul in both being true and equally valid

-Miki

I totally agree with this.

I still disagree with this notion of an unprovable benefit to being male that everyone who presents as male receives though. I could just as well insist that pixies have been casting magic spells to help you through life and you can't say that they didn't because no one is aware of them and you can't choose if the pixies help you or not!

Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title.  I hope no one finds this question offensive.

Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort?  How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?

  I hated my male privilege but a lot of male privilege goes unnoticed and isn't something i was nor am always aware of and i probably used it a lot! I actually believe some trans women may retain certain aspects of their male privilege through transition or even still have access to it and use it when needed. (such as going  into boy mode when applying for jobs, which sucks but some do it because they have to!)  plus, there's many things about our bodies that are very different from a genetic women's body that is up against politics, such as...public breast feeding politics, abortion.. what have you. As a trans woman that is a feminist and an active activist, i have to be aware of these things not technically being against my male sex, but my identity as a woman, which is different for cis women. I hope my take on your question wasn't going down too much of a different direction.
I think trans women lose a lot of male privilege that they didn't like to begin with, nor did some even have so much male privilege to begin with. It's all really complicated and depends because privilege itself is complicated and depends.
But I operate from a Peggy Mcintosh perspective.

Losing male privilege is one of the reasons I'm probably not going to transitions... so... yeah, I don't exactly belong on this board, but there's my input.

Quote from: A on April 14, 2012, 12:50:03 PM
1. Stop thinking you're intruding, duh.

2. Where I live, there's no such thing as a male privilege, except maybe a traditional preference for males in high, leading jobs like directors and politicians... even though it's changing as the old men are retiring.

Actually, I've only ever hit a female privilege that I lacked. Nowadays, it's not exactly a positive thing, but females are stereotypically regarded as superwomen who can take care of children alone, work and imply themselves in their community, all responsibly, whilst males are supposedly sexual, aggressive and misadapted people who can only barely manage a job, failing to take care of housework efficiently. It's like men are women's children. It's not to such an extent, and it's not in everyone, but it's sort of the idea that's going around. Like it's revenge for past sexism.

Females are more regarded than males in many sectors, be it social relations or even work. For example, a theatre once turned me back saying that they didn't hire guys.

Also, females who work in traditionally male environments (computers, mechanical and construction workers, truck driving) are usually encouraged, whilst males in the opposite position (secretaries, nurses, children guardians) are generally disregarded ("it's gay!") or distrusted ("you'll rape my children!")

All that to say that no, I don't feel I'm losing any male privilege.

A... Canada's a lovely place and all, but ladies still make 0.70 on the dollar. Better than most, but we've got a LONG LONG way to go to equality. Never even had a female prime minister yet. Our ratio of men to women in politics is deplorable, and Quebec's legislature is no better. Just because OVERT sexism is no longer acceptable does not mean that it doesn't go on. (And trust me, outside of the white, middle-class, urban areas - overt sexism is still perfectly acceptable.)

And yes, that men who go to work in traditionally female professions are treated like ->-bleeped-<- is horrible. The reason for that is that "women's work" is still overwhelmingly undervalued in society. Part of the same sexist system.


Yes, it was ->-bleeped-<-ing hell for most of us to live as guys. But that isn't a universal experience. Hell, when I was little I thought that they flipped a coin when you were born and the lucky ones got to be girls and the unlucky ones had to be boys - like someone has to take the black pieces in chess. Most of us have some underlying rage at our situation that can colour our perceptions.

Have a look at some of the actual ongoing research on gender differences, have a look at the UN stats for your country/region/whatever. Try to keep an open mind. Things have been getting better, thankfully - but, no, they aren't perfect.


I really don't get what the big deal is. I'm privileged 'cause I'm white and middle-class and university-educated and from a progressive environment. On the other hand I'm trans and gay and female and disabled. Each individual has their own personal cocktail of advantages and disadvantages. Nobody is trying to say a black queen has it harder than a white pawn. All men are not better off than all women. Just that a black pawn has it harder than a white pawn. If you control for all other factors, being male comes with advantages over being female. That's just the world we live in. Even in Canada.

Well, there are female (provincial) prime ministers, and the current favourite candidate for Québec's is a woman...

My deep belief is that most of the differences still present today are due to men's promotions to better jobs long ago, and the fact that they still haven't retired. And maybe also the fact that women, be it due to tradition, hormonal inclinations or any other reason, tend to like jobs that have a lower salary more than men. For example, many factory/construction workers with a workers' union and all get (imo) INDECENT salaries (like, 100-200 000 $ a year), despite their lack of education or special expertise, and women don't tend to work there a lot.

I may be naive, but I'm talking about my own experience and what I myself have witnessed.

Anyone in a craft union who is making 100-200K a year is either doing 24/7 overtime, or they do have some very special expertise.

Nope. Just ancestors who got them very useful advantages at a time when they had to support a ten-people family with their salary, and the job was massively noxious to their health when companies didn't have to care about employees' condition, and it all stayed when their grandsons only had one child and their partners worked, too.

Just below doctors and such, factory workers are the richest around here. They earn about as much as someone who has 3 years of university. Of course, they work 12 hrs a day, one day out of two, but nurses have it worse.

Another example is my ex-co-tenant's boyfriend, 25 years old, who currently makes 150 000 $ a year with a very low level diploma and little experience, because he operates a mechanical shovel with inhuman schedules in the great North.

Some people are overpaid while many others are underpaid; I guess that's just how it is.

Lots of great answers here so far with a lot of input! 

@Torn1990 your take of the question didn't go into a different direction at all.  Good answer btw!

@Trixie I appreciate your honesty.  If I may ask, how often does male privilege conflict with your gender idenity if it is an issue for you?

@Shantel I've always wanted to do outdoor things but I was never a fan of having to squat so that's probably why I didn't participate much....other than just being lazy.   

he operates a mechanical shovel with inhuman schedules in the great North

That sounds special to me.  Very expensive equipment, in a construction environment where time is money and lots of it, lousy work schedule and bitter cold - that's worth money.  Knowing philosophy or sociology isn't.  Everybody thinks some classes in the university makes them all so desirable.  But, what can most students do at the end of four years (3 years is worthless, degree or no degree, 3 years just makes you look like you were stupid enough to waste 3 years doing nothing)?

And I work some pretty inhuman hours too.  15-18 days are normal, and you know what?  Most people can't handle it.  Yeah, we get double time from midnight to 6am, but you want people working at that time, you're going to pay them for it.

i just realized my gif post was deleted.
any rules i'm not aware of yet preventing gif posts?

Quote from: Torn1990 on April 14, 2012, 03:42:40 PM
i just realized my gif post was deleted.
any rules i'm not aware of yet preventing gif posts?

Please refer to the Photo, avatars, and signature images policy thread.

Well, it's not any colder than here, especially in the summer, and his truck is heated/climatised. Maybe in the winter, whilst over here it's about -20 °C, it's -30 °C, but with the right clothes, I don't think it does any difference.

Not saying it's an easy job; heck, I couldn't do it; but it's not ALL that special or hard for anyone who's into physical work. There's a reason it only takes 1-2 years of studies, maximum, to do it. Plus, he has inhuman schedules, but that's because he consents to it. He could work more normal schedules, like many others over there do, and still earn well over 50 000 $ a year, since his hourly wage is huge.

Actually, the reason why his salary is so good is that the government made the (bad, for many reasons) decision of spending a lot of subvention money on companies so they can mine and sell our minerals with almost no cost, with almost no obligation but that of hiring and having a relatively high salary mass.

PS: Education system over here is different. The equivalent of high school has one year less, but then you have college, which is mandatory to access university, for 2-3 years, depending on the field of study, and then, university's first cycle of study only takes three years, leading to a baccalaureate (if that's how they're called in English), instead of four in many other places, including the rest of Canada. Overall, a person with that diploma actually has one or two more years of studies than an American, for example, I believe.

Torn1990:

QuoteEdit: Connie Anne linked to it, so no need for this./quote]

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 14, 2012, 01:23:36 PM



I really don't get what the big deal is. I'm privileged 'cause I'm white and middle-class and university-educated and from a progressive environment. On the other hand I'm trans and gay and female and disabled. Each individual has their own personal cocktail of advantages and disadvantages. Nobody is trying to say a black queen has it harder than a white pawn. All men are not better off than all women. Just that a black pawn has it harder than a white pawn. If you control for all other factors, being male comes with advantages over being female. That's just the world we live in. Even in Canada.

not sure what i did broke any of those rules actually.
But if this is better for you all...
I am in agreement with what is being said here, i think it is important information! Coolio cereal keep up the awesomeness. 
Preach.
Strange judgment mod.. i mean, if i responded to A with the face palm meme then i'd understand but come on people. Plus, i wouldn't do that anyway because i think A's perspective is still valuable i was just highlighting some  knowledge i find important.

To clarify, you posted just a picture without text, which did not add to the discussion, and regardless of the original intent, it could easily be interpreted as disrespectful.

Quote from: A on April 14, 2012, 03:57:14 PM
To clarify, you posted just a picture without text, which did not add to the discussion, and regardless of the original intent, it could easily be interpreted as disrespectful.

I suppose! i guess i'm not really a proponent of censorship. Plus, i'm an active forum member that always likes to add to dialogue not some troll. I'm not against bullying regulation, but now i feel my perspective is being bullied just because i posted a gif that expressed agreement with something. I think that contributes to the discussion because it tells someone to maybe take a second look at something that was said.
Smells like a double standard

Actually, I don't know about others, but I originally interpreted that as you accusing her of preaching, as an insult.

Plus, I believe the main point to your post's deletal (if that word exists) was that it was only an image to express a message, which is generally not very appreciated by people, and that there was no explanation or arguments for it. Just like people who just post "+1", it can easily called flooding, but even more so because it's an image which, as I already said, aren't a very nice thing to post, unless you're on an image board.

Quote from: A on April 14, 2012, 04:06:14 PM
Actually, I don't know about others, but I originally interpreted that as you accusing her of preaching, as an insult.

Plus, I believe the main point to your post's deletal (if that word exists) was that it was only an image to express a message, which is generally not very appreciated by people, and that there was no explanation or arguments for it. Just like people who just post "+1", it can easily called flooding, but even more so because it's an image which, as I already said, aren't a very nice thing to post, unless you're on an image board.

As an insult to sarah? oh goodness this is getting skewed and exceptional.
in context for those who have seen that glee episode, it means "i agree."
i think this takes out the fun in forum posting but allrighty..
Rules being forced upon by subjective rulings of one person can't be perfect!   Maybe emoticons will be better?
How's this one? " "
I'll try and avoid outside gifs in the future.

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Probably not a good idea to be discussing it in a public thread.

Not to mention, it's deviating from the thread subject.

(Don't want to step on any toes here, old habits die hard I guess, lol)