Going back to the original question the answer is; (not necessarily in all cases!) There's a wide spectrum of those born with androgen insensitivity syndrome from partial to complete, the latter being a relative rarity. All are considered to be pseudo-hermaphrodites, they all have XY chromosomes. Some have a markedly female thought process and others, although living in feminine bodies from birth, have a markedly male thought process which is in continual conflict with what that individual's body and others around them is telling them. It's not a happy situation! There was a book written about this very thing by Jeffrey Eugenides entitled Middlesex. It is a really good read and although the author claims that it's not about himself, I suspect that it is about the life of one of his relatives. 

Quote from: pretty on April 22, 2012, 04:37:46 PM
Why should it matter to me what a transphobe wrote? People call everyone a transphobe if they disagree with new-age unicorn gender roles.

Are you really gonna paint me as a transphobe while I'm transitioning?  I don't hate myself THAT much.

Anyway, reality check, just because something someone says denies your identity doesn't mean it's automatically wrong. If life were that convenient I could walk around as a vampire  . I can't do that though. Not saying it's automatically right either, but I'm saying how much it validates your identity has nothing to do with whether or not it's right.

Second of all, and here's the important thing, when someone is transitioning, they're making a claim that they're a sex that they weren't born as, and asking people to treat them as that sex.

If there's NOT a medical basis for it, like, if that never actually happens physically, then it's not a very legitimate claim, is it? Not any more than saying "I'm a vampire, treat me like a vampire." And I really doubt even you would take that one seriously 

You know, I don't set society's standards. And I'm not defending people who just want to deny someone's identity no matter how well it fits them just to be a jerk.

Still, like, you can say you have a problem with society's treatment based on sex. You can tell people they shouldn't treat a guy differently just because they're a guy. Or a girl differently because they're a girl. That's kind of a different issue than trans issues. But when you tell someone "I was born a girl but I'm a guy," or whatever, it's gonna silly if you look and act like a girl.

But anyway, actually paying attention to reality doesn't have to work against trans people. Because if you actually pay attention to reality, where men and women have actual differences in personality and interests and sexuality and stuff, and where some men are actually physically born with innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality and vise versa... then those people can't fairly deny your identity anymore than they could deny that a cancer patient has tumors.

And I went on way too long about this, because honestly I'm kind of in the "whatever" stage about it all, but sometimes I just want to ask this community like, "lol, really?" And I unfortunately have to exclude myself from those "we"s because again, I really have trouble fitting into this community as someone who actually believes it means something palpable to be "masculine" or "feminine." Like, I want to fit in here, but honestly I couldn't even take myself seriously if I were transitioning after having a wife and five kids, a gigantic beard and a car demolition business or something.

Not to be a nuisance or anything, but there are a few logical fallacies there. While very compelling as an emotional opinion, in terms of 'reality',  it's somewhat questionable.

QuoteIf there's NOT a medical basis for it, like, if that never actually happens physically, then it's not a very legitimate claim, is it?

That's a non sequitor. In order for that to work you would first have to be able to say with certainty that medicine knows, and has discovered everything it's possible to know and discover. Since you can't, the conclusion is really only a value judgement on whether you yourself consider it legitimate.

QuoteBut anyway, actually paying attention to reality doesn't have to work against trans people. Because if you actually pay attention to reality, where men and women have actual differences in personality and interests and sexuality and stuff, and where some men are actually physically born with innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality and vise versa... then those people can't fairly deny your identity anymore than they could deny that a cancer patient has tumors.

Well for a start you haven't defined what feminine/masculine personalities and interests and sexuality actually are. So you're using value judgements as fact.

But leaving that aside for the moment, it's another non sequitor. For the whole thing to hold water you first have to say that all women have innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality. Which you can't. So that goes on to make:

"some men are actually physically born with innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality"

Not actually relevant.

What you're getting at, is that since some men are born with innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality... that actually makes them women. And that hasn't been proven. Nor has it been disproven that people with innate masculine personalities and interests and sexuality aren't women.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that "all women have innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality."

That would still make the statement nothing more than correlation, not causation. That women with feminine personalities, interests and sexuality exist, and so do some men... that doesn't automatically make those men women. Or automatically make men without them not women. All it proves, in this context, is that feminine/masculine personalities, interests and sexualites exist.

Which makes other people's denial of someone's identity not justifiable either way, at least not based on the above.

QuoteAnd I unfortunately have to exclude myself from those "we"s because again, I really have trouble fitting into this community as someone who actually believes it means something palpable to be "masculine" or "feminine."

By what you've said above, it appears you believe feminine = female and masculine = male. Since that isn't a fact which has been proven, only asserted by opinion and value judgements... while you're entitled to it, maybe accept that other people are equally entitled to theirs which may not agree with yours.

For example, some people believe that both men and women exhibit a balance of both masculine and feminine traits, neither one in extremis.

QuoteLike, I want to fit in here, but honestly I couldn't even take myself seriously if I were transitioning after having a wife and five kids, a gigantic beard and a car demolition business or something.

That's your call. However not everyone is like you.

To presuppose that a woman can't have a car demolition business because it's not 'feminine' enough... well, this isn't 1912. And the desire for a family isn't something specific to any gender.

...


Sorry for that. However opinions are just that. And shouldn't be used to try and claim one thing, or viewpoint, or lifestyle is more 'right' than another.

Sephirah, I think maybe you read too much into my post, the point I was trying to make is that for you to be able to say "I am a woman, not a man" when you were clearly born as a man, you do have to be able to define what it means to be a woman for that to make any sense. Otherwise, what are you even claiming to be? You gotta define it.

I'm not trying to impose that definition on anyone... 'cause everyone has their own I guess. But then again, society has one too and it's society we all have to exist in. At the end of the day, if someone looks, acts, walks and talks how people are used to from women, that is what is going to get people to accept them as a woman. 

Sorry if it's not a good reply but honestly I don't want to do the long back and forth thing.