Quote from: foosnark on April 25, 2012, 10:47:13 AM
Why did transgender, as an identity, not exist before the 20th century, and genderqueer not exist until the last few decades?

All this says is that we didn't used to have language to describe those identities. Or are you suggesting that the identities exist now only because we invented words for them? That seems a bit circular.

And honestly I'm the wrong person to respond to this, but a lot of people feel very strongly that their gender identity is intrinsic and fixed at birth - to the extent that they seek out medical intervention for their bodies as a reasonable solution. In contrast, efforts to alter someone's gender identity via socialization have been shockingly and painfully unsuccessful.

I'm kind of mind blown that you posted this on a trans forum, frankly. You do know that a similar "thought experiment" was done, right? A little boy was raised as a little girl. The result? David Reimer.

Actually trans people period are kind of proof that gender identity is innate at least to some degree. So confused by you right now... Are we using language to mean different things here?

I am more and more convinced that gender is primarily psycho-social than innate or biological, although has a biological base.

To say something is social is not to say it is not important. I think biology and genetics are given far more credit for the minutiae of human lives and I think it's dangerous, that to lay everything on biology is to make people powerless against them.

Also - I think it would be astonishing not to discuss the idea that gender is social or psychological. If this is a trans site than all talk about gender should be allowed. Especially in the androgyne section where everything is a little more wibbly.

There is a pretty huge difference between suggesting gender is primarily social, and suggesting gender is entirely social...

Even if it were entirely social, I don't think that makes much difference, we are social creatures after all.

(However, the existence of two sexes and a general pan-global tendency towards having notions of gender suggest that there must be some biological base to me, but I digress).

Quote from: Pica Pica on April 28, 2012, 02:58:50 PM
Even if it were entirely social, I don't think that makes much difference, we are social creatures after all.

(However, the existence of two sexes and a general pan-global tendency towards having notions of gender suggest that there must be some biological base to me, but I digress).

If it's entirely social, we are blank slates... which means you can successfully raise a boy as a girl, or rather that there is no such thing as a boy or a girl at birth beyond external physical characteristics. Which is the theory behind doctors "correcting" intersex births, or Dr. Money's experiment. Further it suggests that socialization can alter identity, leading to things like ongoing reparative therapy of trans kids. So... I'd say it kinda does make a difference when you get past theory and into how the theory is applied and the kind of horrific results of that.

Edit: Great, the girl without a gender identity is arguing in favour of its existence. Again. I guess I really want to believe in it. Even if I can't feel it myself. At least I get points for irony.

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 28, 2012, 03:09:06 PM
Edit: Great, the girl without a gender identity is arguing in favour of its existence. Again. I guess I really want to believe in it. Even if I can't feel it myself. At least I get points for irony.

I believe in the existence of not having a definable gender identity.

Z

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 28, 2012, 03:09:06 PM
If it's entirely social, we are blank slates... which means you can successfully raise a boy as a girl, or rather that there is no such thing as a boy or a girl at birth beyond external physical characteristics.

Fortunately human beings are hugely variant. There are so many varieties and dimension in the human condition that it is virtually impossible to say anything definite that would apply to everyone.

Is it possible that some people's gender identity (or genderqueerness) is with them at birth, while others arrive as a reaction to their social situation?