I wonder how the people that say they don't want to associate with a non passable trans in public would feel if while they were still in their early stages, a cis friend decided that they didn't want to be seen with them for fear of being embarrassed? 

Me, I'm thankful for those who weren't ashamed to be seen with me while I was still very clockable.

Nope, not at all. If they're a good friend, no reason to be ashamed.

Quote from: Jaime on April 29, 2012, 11:03:13 AM
I wonder how the people that say they don't want to associate with a non passable trans in public would feel if while they were still in their early stages, a cis friend decided that they didn't want to be seen with them for fear of being embarrassed?

Actually, that was a big concern for my best friend immediately after I came out to him. As it turns out the fear came to naught, but I don't know exactly how we would have dealt with it. I don't think it's fair to simply say "get over it." Like ignore the scary people starring at you, it's really all in your mind. 'Cause it isn't. Getting in trouble for being "trans while walking" is kinda a thing. And associating with that is a choice people should get to make, without risking being classed as some kind of inconsiderate monster.

Personally, I'd be okay with it / have done it. But that still comes from a place of privilege. Being out with a visible trans person is not going to affect whether people gender me female or not - I'm just going to be the gay girl hanging out with a trans person in other people's eyes. I totally get why someone who is more at risk of losing their invisibility would shy away from it. This is about staying safe and protecting your own mental health, and, in the case of being stealth, protecting the life you've built for yourself.

If hanging out with someone meant risking being gendered male, I wouldn't. Sorry, but my sanity comes first.

Quote from: Jaime on April 29, 2012, 11:03:13 AM
I wonder how the people that say they don't want to associate with a non passable trans in public would feel if while they were still in their early stages, a cis friend decided that they didn't want to be seen with them for fear of being embarrassed? 

Me, I'm thankful for those who weren't ashamed to be seen with me while I was still very clockable.

A cis friend and a "barely passable" trans person are two things. It may arguably be a lack of solidarity, but it can be really depressing to have the equivalent of a big neon sign with "trans" on it next to you when you don't need much to be clocked to begin with. If that other person doesn't even look like she's trying, it's easy to feel like she's the one who's not being very considerate.

I'm not saying it's okay to be mean to the "newbie", but I would compare this to a business situation (even though the example is a bit exaggerated). If a businessman, having just founded his company, doesn't have the money for a really nice business suit, carries his documents in a school backpack and couldn't afford an elaborate pre-marketing plan, is going to try to sell his services to a bunch of people... Since his company doesn't really have any credibility, and he could hardly make himself "passable" to the serious and rich people, it might be fatal for him to bring his punk, unshaven partner in worn-out jeans and a "->-bleeped-<- you" t-shirt, even if he likes him a lot; even if he's helpful.

So short of saying "don't associate with her anymore; she'll drag you down", I really don't blame her for trying to avoid "social suicide".

I guess it comes down to weighing up whether the value of one friend means more to you than the opinions of ten, a hundred, or a thousand strangers. That's something everyone has to decide for themselves. Everyone's circumstances are different.

To the OP: Talk to her. Sit down with her and tell about your concerns. Tell her why you feel the way you do. And listen to what she has to say. Communication is the key here.

Ok, so maybe my animal farm and ancient roman quotes were too old (although the roman quote got a lot of press when they made the watchmen movie).

Instead here is a fairly recent quote where the series is still a big cultural presence.

Quote from: J.K. Rowling
You'll soon find out some wizarding families are much better than others, Potter. You don't want to go making friends with the wrong sort. I can help you there.

Quote from: A on April 29, 2012, 12:26:13 PM
I'm not saying it's okay to be mean to the "newbie", but I would compare this to a business situation (even though the example is a bit exaggerated). If a businessman, having just founded his company, doesn't have the money for a really nice business suit, carries his documents in a school backpack and couldn't afford an elaborate pre-marketing plan, is going to try to sell his services to a bunch of people... Since his company doesn't really have any credibility, and he could hardly make himself "passable" to the serious and rich people, it might be fatal for him to bring his punk, unshaven partner in worn-out jeans and a "<not allowed> you" t-shirt, even if he likes him a lot; even if he's helpful.

It isn't fair to assume the other person isn't trying, that is just an excuse and once you take away the unshaven bit then doesn't his friend sounds a lot like Ron Weasley. 

Well I haven't seen the situation with my own eyes. I'm just taking the OP's words, which I interpret as: if she's trying, it certainly doesn't show.

Although I might be biased by my belief in the practice of not trying to pass until one is able to.

I don't know, maybe I've gotten so used to being in a situation where everyone and their sister knows I'm trans, yet it never gets mentioned to me other than a minor misgender by a couple of people.  And even that is generally ignored by people that are around at the time. I'm just not worried about whether someone perceives me as trans or not anymore, so long as they are respectful and better than 99% of the time, they are. Maybe if I lived in a place where I was concerned for my safety, I could possibly feel differently about it, but for now, I have no issue with being around anyone so long as their behavior is reasonable and they are respectful to others themselves.

Most of the time I don't give two cents what others think about my appearence it's about how I feel about myself that bothers me if that makes any sense...

I'm always the one who passes the least, and I hope my friends never feel this way about me. I love them all so much.

And now that the Slytherins have taught us that mudbloods aren't really wizards perhaps this thread has served its purpose and it can be locked before we hurt people.

Just as a note to the admins you may want to check the OP's old posts and IP address.  All but one of her posts is fairly elitist so we may have a returning guest.

I hate to see so many people disregard your embarrassment as ignorance. It's not ignorant at all.

Ignorance, noun the state or fact of being ignorant;  lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

People who are ignorant tend to not have knowledge, and also not accept knowledge. You, however, know exactly what you're talking about. Being around someone who is the opposite of what you're trying to become is extremely embarrassing and tends to make you look bad in the eyes of others.

If you hang out with a group of 3 friends, and all of those friends are smoking weed, then it's gonna make you look very bad. Even if you're not participating, it still presents a very negative image. Your parents might get pissed at you if they see you around these people, and your "clean" friends are simply gonna stay away from you. It doesn't matter if they're your friends or not. Don't hang out with people who are presenting as something that you do not wish to identify with.

If your friend isn't putting any effort to pass, and they're presenting themselves as a "->-bleeped-<-", rather than a woman, then it's perfectly fine to feel awkward. I personally wouldn't want to hang around a person like that because that's exactly what I don't want to become. It seems that you and I both don't want to be affiliated with masculine women. That's perfectly fine. In all honestly, seeing a straight-up dude in woman's clothing is kinda gross to me.

There's nothing wrong with thinking this way and it certainly doesn't make you ignorant. It means you're a unique human-being with different views. As others suggested, maybe you should talk with your friend and try to help them pass. Otherwise just be honest and tell them how you feel about it.

Quote from: Corey on April 29, 2012, 01:58:18 PM
Ignorance, noun the state or fact of being ignorant;  lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

People who are ignorant tend to not have knowledge, and also not accept knowledge. You, however, know exactly what you're talking about. Being around someone who is the opposite of what you're trying to become is extremely embarrassing and tends to make you look bad in the eyes of others.

In an attempt to cure ignorance let me share the following:

Quote from: Susan
Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and ->-bleeped-<-s.

Quote from: Susan
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

***edited to add proper attribution to the definition***

Quote from: Jeneva on April 29, 2012, 02:05:46 PM
In an attempt to cure ignorance let me share the following:

Umm... What?

Quote from: Lily on April 29, 2012, 01:44:49 PM
I'm always the one who passes the least, and I hope my friends never feel this way about me. I love them all so much.

I think as long as your comfortable being you then it shouldn't matter ^^ (and I'm sure you look beautiful)

Quote from: Corey on April 29, 2012, 02:07:34 PM
Umm... What?

That is the site definition of transgender and is a portion of the site rules of which you appeared to be ignorant.

Quote from: Jeneva on April 29, 2012, 02:08:56 PM
That is the site definition of transgender and is a portion of the site rules of which you appeared to be ignorant.

I know well about the transgender umbrella term, and I didn't bash/flame a single person.

Quote from: Corey on April 29, 2012, 02:10:31 PM
I know well about the transgender umbrella term, and I didn't bash/flame a single person.

Quote from: Corey on April 29, 2012, 01:58:18 PM
Being around someone who is the opposite of what you're trying to become is extremely embarrassing and tends to make you look bad in the eyes of others.

Quote from: Corey on April 29, 2012, 01:58:18 PM
If your friend isn't putting any effort to pass, and they're presenting themselves as a "->-bleeped-<-", rather than a woman, then it's perfectly fine to feel awkward. I personally wouldn't want to hang around a person like that because that's exactly what I don't want to become. It seems that you and I both don't want to be affiliated with masculine women. That's perfectly fine. In all honestly, seeing a straight-up dude in woman's clothing is kinda gross to me.

Are you sure about that?  You said they are the opposite of a transsexual.  You said ->-bleeped-<-s are gross.  You even called someone a ->-bleeped-<-.