Lol, you should see my local women's rugby team on a girl's night out. I'd love to see anyone try to tell them they're not female identified. Bring a gumshield.

You'd never guess they spend their free time trying to piledrive other women into the ground... umm... I mean run around with an odd shaped ball?

I guess some folks need to gender everything because of the whole "you are what you do" mindset. I don't know why there has to be a line in the sand with stuff segregated on either side of it, and if you cross that line then it somehow has implications on other stuff totally unrelated.

Here's something interesting:

Quote from: lilacwoman on May 01, 2012, 01:30:23 PM
transphobic lesbians pull the 'you like guy stuff so you are just a pervy CD/TV' about TS who like cars and guns but these transphobes can't or won't understand that having to live male in youth does expose a person to stereotype pastimes and interests.

QuoteI like guns

QuoteI like shooting big guns

Quotewon't understand that having to live male in youth does expose a person to stereotype pastimes and interests

BS.That sounds like a silly excuse for liking masculine things by nature.  Being interested in (big) gunplay and shooting is  a typical (American) masculine interest, and a very agressive and violent one at that.

It's almost the same nonsense Annah wrote a couple of days ago; 'being raised into finding women sexually attractive' as to explain why the overwhelming majority of MTF is lesbian.
If that were true  gay or bisexual men simply wouldn't exist.

I'm from an apart from my mother all male household. My father and  4 brothers exposed me constantly to stereotypical masculine pastimes and interests.
Yet I developed stereotype feminine pastime and interests.

Of course my very masculine father and brothers constantly tried to 'correct' me but to no avail.

There is something like a (very) masculine nature or a (very) feminine nature in people.

And no, I never wear dresses or skirts and yes, I wear my hair short ala Halle Berry. With large hoop earrings, eye make up and lipstick.
And I hate videogames, soccer, baseball, motorcycles, racecars and weapons.

Quote from: Dahlia on May 01, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
BS.That sounds like a silly excuse for liking masculine things by nature.  Being interested in (big) gunplay and shooting is  a typical (American) masculine interest, and a very agressive and violent one at that.

It's almost the same nonsense Annah wrote a couple of days ago; 'being raised into finding women sexually attractive' as to explain why the overwhelming majority of MTF is lesbian.
If that were true  gay or bisexual men simply wouldn't exist.

I'm from an apart from my mother all male household. My father and  4 brothers exposed me constantly to stereotypical masculine pastimes and interests.
Yet I developed stereotype feminine pastime and interests.

Of course my very masculine father and brothers constantly tried to 'correct' me but to no avail.

There is something like a (very) masculine nature or a (very) feminine nature in people.

And no, I never wear dresses or skirts and yes, I wear my hair short ala Halle Berry. With large hoop earrings, eye make up and lipstick.
And I hate videogames, soccer, baseball, motorcycles, racecars and weapons.

Yeah this I guess....

I am happy to live and let live but I feel kinda written off when people say they were raised into masculine interests like they wouldn't have otherwise liked them, when I was raised being pressured into masculine interests but refused to do them and still developed mainly feminine ones instead.

Quote from: Dahlia on May 01, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
There is something like a (very) masculine nature or a (very) feminine nature in people.

Maybe, but the emboldened word is the key. People. Men or women can have either, or somewhere inbetween. A balance of Yin and Yang.

Quote from: Dahlia on May 01, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
And I hate videogames, soccer, baseball, motorcycles, racecars and weapons.

My hairdresser hates the same things. Yet he identifies very strongly as a man. And he's actually quite proud of not fitting any of the stereotypes and living his life to his own rules. The last time I had my hair trimmed we talked for like two hours about all kinds of cool stuff. He's very new age, into crystals and spiritualism. He's also into fashion. He said he always wanted to be a designer but was never any good at drawing. And god knows what kind of skin-care regime he has but he told me how old he was and I swear to god that he looks at least 20 years younger than his age. I think he bathes in the blood of virgins or something.

He's a happily involved gay man, I've met his partner. And he's pretty awesome, to be honest. As a role model for just being yourself, he's right up there.

So I'm not entirely sure what your point is. You like what you like, and don't like what you don't like, that's cool. So does everyone else.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 01, 2012, 04:45:10 PM

He's a happily involved gay man, I've met his partner. And he's pretty awesome, to be honest.

A happily involved gay man is something completely different from a MTF interested in big gun shooting amongst other (very) masculine things.
Worlds apart don't you think?

To say that one's culture does not affect who they became is, to me, hogwash. That one is exposed to particular elements due to their culture, and in this case cultural gender ideals, absolutely has to increase the likelihood of an individual liking said element

For example, let's use the example that Americans love guns...well they are exposed to guns and are thus more likely to find them acceptable. Men may be exposed more to Rugby or weightlifting, thus increasing the probability that a male will adopt those as hobbies. Conversely there are people who unconsciously refuse to adopt a preference for something simply because it is a part of a culture they hate (ie people of other cultures may hate guns simply because Americans like them...I have seen this one personally.)

It only makes sense that one is more likely to find an eventual attraction toward the things to which they are exposed. Even ideas of good and evil are culturally subjective. It's cultural anthropology at work...and human psychology aswell...( see the "mere exposure effect"

I may not like it, or think it ideal...but our respective cultural exposures have a massive effect on who we are, and who we may become!

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 04:33:25 PM
Yeah this I guess....

I am happy to live and let live but I feel kinda written off when people say they were raised into masculine interests like they wouldn't have otherwise liked them, when I was raised being pressured into masculine interests but refused to do them and still developed mainly feminine ones instead.

Well, some people may not be particularly driven to masculine or feminine things but fall into them by default. If a child doesn't have a particular preference, it's more easy for her to just do what her friends are into. And since boys are usually discouraged from pursuing 'girly' pastimes, he'd likely only do it if he was passionate about the activity.
At a time when fitting in is such a priority, a lot of kids just go with the flow.

Thank you everyone. It helps... I was being silly.

Quote from: Dahlia on May 01, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
BS.That sounds like a silly excuse for liking masculine things by nature.  Being interested in (big) gunplay and shooting is  a typical (American) masculine interest, and a very agressive and violent one at that.

It's almost the same nonsense Annah wrote a couple of days ago; 'being raised into finding women sexually attractive' as to explain why the overwhelming majority of MTF is lesbian.
If that were true  gay or bisexual men simply wouldn't exist.

I'm from an apart from my mother all male household. My father and  4 brothers exposed me constantly to stereotypical masculine pastimes and interests.
Yet I developed stereotype feminine pastime and interests.

Of course my very masculine father and brothers constantly tried to 'correct' me but to no avail.

There is something like a (very) masculine nature or a (very) feminine nature in people.

And no, I never wear dresses or skirts and yes, I wear my hair short ala Halle Berry. With large hoop earrings, eye make up and lipstick.
And I hate videogames, soccer, baseball, motorcycles, racecars and weapons.

Wait, I'm really not sure what your point is.  Should I NOT like those things?

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 04:33:25 PM
I am happy to live and let live but I feel kinda written off when people say they were raised into masculine interests like they wouldn't have otherwise liked them, when I was raised being pressured into masculine interests but refused to do them and still developed mainly feminine ones instead.

Someone saying that they have hobby X and still feel feminine does not impact you at all.  But on the other hand saying that hobby X means you aren't a woman does impact many people.

There is NO one size fits all.  I'm sorry you feel that someone not specifically following your path is writing you off, but your path is not the only one.

Quote from: Forum Admin on May 01, 2012, 05:05:40 PM
Well, some people may not be particularly driven to masculine or feminine things but fall into them by default. If a child doesn't have a particular preference, it's more easy for her to just do what her friends are into. And since boys are usually discouraged from pursuing 'girly' pastimes, he'd likely only do it if he was passionate about the activity.
At a time when fitting in is such a priority, a lot of kids just go with the flow.

If someone had no preference for masculine or feminine, what would be the point of transitioning though? 

I'm sorry I just never get it  . People talk about their internal voice or something even if they lived successfully as their birth sex.  But if you don't even care about gendered things, what's the point of changing your gender presentation?

Quote from: Jeneva on May 01, 2012, 05:16:41 PM
Someone saying that they have hobby X and still feel feminine does not impact you at all.  But on the other hand saying that hobby X means you aren't a woman does impact many people.

There is NO one size fits all.  I'm sorry you feel that someone not specifically following your path is writing you off, but your path is not the only one.

Well, maybe it's gonna sound shocking, but it doesn't really matter to me if someone (including myself) is a woman or not  . Because once that becomes about something other than birth sex it is totally up to each individual what constitutes being a woman.

I mean, "woman" and "man" are just words to classify. They don't really mean much. Masculinity and femininity are what you really see in the real world. Those are the vibes that a person gives off. They're what really engenders what we (and especially the collective we) think of as men and women. So even if you say that someone IS a woman, and even if that's totally fair and true by some standard, I don't feel like it is very meaningful if they just don't come off as a woman to people. I'm not saying that like it's supposed to be insulting or something. People just either are more masculine or more feminine. But yeah, personally, I place value in the real substance of who someone is and not what they're called. It's not to be mean and it's not to be intolerant. I just can't willfully replace my perceptions of reality however I wish.

Quote from: Dahlia on May 01, 2012, 04:52:30 PM
A happily involved gay man is something completely different from a MTF interested in big gun shooting amongst other (very) masculine things.
Worlds apart don't you think?

Not really. He's just living his life. Same way everyone else tries to do. Who am I, or you, or anyone for that matter, to judge?

But anyway, I use 'MtF' as an adjective, not a noun. I see the women here as women first, and a term used to describe someone undergoing transition second. So "a woman interested in big gun shooting", as far as I'm concerned, whatever tickles your pickle. Same goes for any other activity they may take an interest in. Doesn't make them any less of a woman. Heck there are enough women in the armed forces who get a kick out of driving tanks and shooting very big guns. Point is, you live your life doing what makes you happy, what you find satisfaction in. I don't know, it seems like a weird form of sexism to say that women shouldn't do this or that because it's just not 'proper' or 'ladylike' or whatever. People are free to do whatever they want, within the laws of the land.

That some women like to do those things doesn't invalidate their womanhood any more than my hairdresser's hobbies and interests invalidates his manhood.

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 05:23:31 PM
I mean, "woman" and "man" are just words to classify. They don't really mean much. Masculinity and femininity are what you really see in the real world. Those are the vibes that a person gives off. They're what really engenders what we (and especially the collective we) think of as men and women. So even if you say that someone IS a woman, and even if that's totally fair and true by some standard, I don't feel like it is very meaningful if they just don't come off as a woman to people. I'm not saying that like it's supposed to be insulting or something. People just either are more masculine or more feminine. But yeah, personally, I place value in the real substance of who someone is and not what they're called. It's not to be mean and it's not to be intolerant. I just can't willfully replace my perceptions of reality however I wish.

And so you see in the real world what their private hobbies are?  Or who they prefer for romantic relationships?

Let's just take a woman in the grocery store or running errands around town by herself.  She happens to be trans.  How do you know what her hobbies are?  How do you know if is straight or lesbian?  Don't you see how these are just part of her character and don't define her as masculine or feminine?

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 05:23:31 PM
If someone had no preference for masculine or feminine, what would be the point of transitioning though? 

I'm sorry I just never get it  . People talk about their internal voice or something even if they lived successfully as their birth sex.  But if you don't even care about gendered things, what's the point of changing your gender presentation?

Well, maybe it's gonna sound shocking, but it doesn't really matter to me if someone (including myself) is a woman or not  . Because once that becomes about something other than birth sex it is totally up to each individual what constitutes being a woman.

I mean, "woman" and "man" are just words to classify. They don't really mean much. Masculinity and femininity are what you really see in the real world. Those are the vibes that a person gives off. They're what really engenders what we (and especially the collective we) think of as men and women. So even if you say that someone IS a woman, and even if that's totally fair and true by some standard, I don't feel like it is very meaningful if they just don't come off as a woman to people. I'm not saying that like it's supposed to be insulting or something. People just either are more masculine or more feminine. But yeah, personally, I place value in the real substance of who someone is and not what they're called. It's not to be mean and it's not to be intolerant. I just can't willfully replace my perceptions of reality however I wish.

so you should transition just so you can do things that are gendered the opposite of your birth sex? that seems to be what you're saying, that there is no other reason to -  'no point'. 

its nature vs nurture, maybe your gender identity can leaveyou more predisposed to some things, but then so can your upbringing, just like with height, weight and other things like that.  you cant dismiss one and not the other, they are both important factors.

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 05:23:31 PM
If someone had no preference for masculine or feminine, what would be the point of transitioning though? 

I'm sorry I just never get it  . People talk about their internal voice or something even if they lived successfully as their birth sex.  But if you don't even care about gendered things, what's the point of changing your gender presentation?

To feel comfortable in your own skin and stop thinking about gender long enough to be able to actually get on with your life, I guess. For a lot of people there's a very tangible physical incongruency. It's not about needing to have a 'masculine' or 'feminine' approach to life. It's just about having the body that matches the image in your head when you close your eyes, and every time you look in the mirror for a few seconds before it fades away and you're left with the uncomfortable, and often painful realisation of what you're actually faced with.

I don't know if you've ever felt dysphoria with your body, or your genitalia, but it's a very real feeling, and it's quite seperate from whether you're into 'girly' things or not. Sometimes it really is as simple as rearranging anatomy to fall into line with your own mental self-image. Not about acting like a woman according to societal stereotypes or gender roles, but just being yourself and living your life, free from the jarring physical sensations of having the wrong anatomical organs.

This is why I asked the question before about living your life in a place where you had no one to present to. Where there was no one to prove that you are a woman to, no one to treat you as such, and you're free to live your life the way that feels natural. Would you still go through with it? For a lot of people, the answer is 'yes', because whether other people are around or not, their bodies still feel horribly wrong and need to be corrected. It's not about whether other people see them as a woman, but whether they themselves feel like one.

Sometimes people just want bodies which fit them, even if that doesn't fit in with everyone else's preconceptions. That doesn't make it wrong.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 01, 2012, 05:54:01 PM
To feel comfortable in your own skin and stop thinking about gender long enough to be able to actually get on with your life, I guess. For a lot of people there's a very tangible physical incongruency. It's not about needing to have a 'masculine' or 'feminine' approach to life. It's just about having the body that matches the image in your head when you close your eyes, and every time you look in the mirror for a few seconds before it fades away and you're left with the uncomfortable, and often painful realisation of what you're actually faced with.

Well, honestly what you described sounds to me like BDD and not GID.  (BDD is a serious problem too)

I do get depressed about my body. But that's for reasons that are absolutely intertwined with my social presentation and with relating to others, expressing myself and being myself outwardly. There's no way I could separate them or isolate my need to transition as being just "wanting the right body." So the desert island example makes no sense to me. It's a lot more than that.

QuoteThis is why I asked the question before about living your life in a place where you had no one to present to. Where there was no one to prove that you are a woman to, no one to treat you as such, and you're free to live your life the way that feels natural. Would you still go through with it? For a lot of people, the answer is 'yes', because whether other people are around or not, their bodies still feel horribly wrong and need to be corrected. It's not about whether other people see them as a woman, but whether they themselves feel like one.

I have often daydreamed about this scenerio and the answer to myself has always been YES, I have spent the last 50 years being what "others" want to see, not what "I" am on the inside looking out...which to me is clearly more female that what my body looks like, now I dont have to dressy all up to feel good, but it sure does feel nice to be a little "pretty" in 3D...just to validate in my mind that is possible to "match" mind with body if not in just a small way.

Its "my turn now" I'm not getting any younger and I want to be true to myself for once...and my hobbies will still be an important part of that whether it be basket weaving or shooting at my gun range

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 06:53:10 PM
Well, honestly what you described sounds to me like BDD and not GID.  (BDD is a serious problem too)

I do get depressed about my body. But that's for reasons that are absolutely intertwined with my social presentation and with relating to others, expressing myself and being myself outwardly. There's no way I could separate them or isolate my need to transition as being just "wanting the right body." So the desert island example makes no sense to me. It's a lot more than that.

Then why is the end goal of a lot of treatment for GID, SRS/GCS/GRS.  Being dissatisfied with your biological sex is a key part of dysphoria for many people.

I was trying to use it to dig a hole and then make it fall off at 4.  Being older and then being raised by my grandparents I was quickly "taught" to not do that and not to talk like that.  When I finally decided I HAD to transition I was willing to do it even if I were a total outcast from society.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 01, 2012, 12:19:01 PM
http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

• The average gamer is 37 years old and has been playing for 12 years.


• Eighty-two percent of gamers are 18 years of age or older.


• Forty-two percent of all players are women and women over 18 years of age are one of the industry's fastest growing demographics.


• Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (37 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (13 percent)

Not really what I'd call an entirely male pursuit.

This is quite true. But I've found few females while amidst multiplayer halo matches on Xbox Live.

Of course since most of the kids are jerks, I don't blame them.

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 06:53:10 PM
Well, honestly what you described sounds to me like BDD and not GID.  (BDD is a serious problem too)

http://www.thebddfoundation.com/what_isbdd/preoccupation2.htm

QuotePeople with BDD may be concerned about a lack of symmetry, or feel that something is too big or swollen or too small, or that it is out of proportion to the rest of the body. People with BDD may have specific concerns or vague concerns simply referring to ugliness.

That's not really the same as feeling that something is part of the wrong physical sex and shouldn't be there at all, and replaced with something else entirely.

So no, I don't think it's that.

I am a woman, my mind and soul tells me so.. What does it matter if I happen to enjoy fast cars, guns, sports etc? Does this somehow invalidate what my mind and soul is telling me?