this is funny but I am ambivalent to face make up but I would love to be able to paint my nails and I really like looking at the things other people do with their nails. but again if that were my real goal I could just do it.

I painted my toenails once because it's easier to hide and that made me happy so maybe I will do that again

My RLE, CLEARLY started when I threw out ALL my male cloths, and PRESENTED! as female, used my best female voice, and started to be ACCEPTED by people as the female I AM. That is 2 years ago by now.

Trying to differentiate about dykie dressing, hair cuts, grumbely voices is NEVER going to cut it, if all those other 'male parameters' we bring along, come into play on top of it all. You will be 'mistered' no end.

So, it be VERY easy to notice if you 'sired'/ 'mistered' or 'madamed' by shop assistants, parking attendants and such folks that do NOT have your ID, in order to be confused/misdirected.

Well, there be NO need to be pregnant - though it WOULD help, if like two TS friends post-op colovaginoplasty have rather large tummies like 7 months pregnant. Being constantly asked when the baby is due... you have to be the age of course, not like me, and have the hassle to get rid of this bauble eventually. NOT EASY AT ALL, - if you can give birth to it!

When I go out, as again today all afternoon shopping, I get compliments for being very stylish... that's just me. Not even wearing nail varnish on my hands, only toes!
But if I'd dress dykie, those looks I'd get... will be more the 'clocking kind' no question about it. I'm 65, 22 month on HRT, no FFS, small boobage 38A that's all.

So, ... some work needs to be done. Transition is no 'free lunch' AT ALL. Believe me, and it can get RATHER expensive – just so long you enjoy the trip

Axélle

Quote from: Axélle on May 22, 2012, 12:45:55 PM
My RLE, CLEARLY started when I threw out ALL my male cloths, and PRESENTED! as female, used my best female voice, and started to be ACCEPTED by people as the female I AM. That is 2 years ago by now.

Trying to differentiate about dykie dressing, hair cuts, grumbely voices is NEVER going to cut it, if all those other 'male parameters' with bring along come into play on top of it all. You will be 'mistered' no end.

So, it be VERY easy to notice if you 'Sired'/ 'Mistered' or 'Madamed' by shop assistants, parking attendants and such folks that do NOT have your ID, in order to be confused/misdirected.

Well, there be NO need to be pregnant - though it WOULD help, if like two TS friends post-op colovaginoplasty have rather large tummies like 7 months pregnant. Being constantly asked when the baby is due... you have to be the age of course, not like me, and have the hassle to get rid of this bauble eventually. NOT EASY AT ALL!

When I go out, as again today all afternoon shopping, I get compliments for being very stylish... that's just me. Not even wearing nail varnish on my hands, only toes!
But if I'd dress dykie, those looks I'd get... will be more the 'clocking kind' no question about it. I'm 65, 22 month on HRT, no FFS, small boobage 38A that's all.

So, ... some work needs to be done. Transition is no 'free lunch' AT ALL. Believe me, and it can get RATHER expensive – just so long you enjoy the trip

Axélle

I think this is confusing RLE with passing - sure, for some people dressing a certain way helps them with passing but for others if their physiology is favourable (whether due to early hormonal intervention or just due to chance) they just have the physiological traits of their target sex and then it doesn't really matter how they dress to whether they pass or not. I know in my case I hadn't changed anything about my "presentation" at all when I started getting gendered female on my school trip to Washington, DC and during summer school at a different school a few months later.

None of this actually clears up what "RLE" or "living full time as a woman" or even "living as a woman" was supposed to mean. If it's exactly the same thing as passing, why not just use "passing"? Also, it's probably not  -exactly- the same thing, if it's being used as a criterion for SRS and the like, as not all of the people who undergo SRS pass. Or does it mean one thing for people who pass and another for people who don't? If it's actually an antiquated construction based on gender roles that don't exist any more, why pay it lip service at all? Why not just campaign for the elimination of "full time" and "RLE" as a concept entirely, and not use that term to refer to oneself and reject it within the trans community?

To me, the whole "living as a woman"/"full time" deal brings up more questions than it does answers.

Well, if you PASS as your target sex, you happen to live in it, pretty obviously.
And if you don't, what then? 
You seriously think just wearing a skirt now and then for "RLE" will cut it?

I think the two things passing and integrating/assimilating with your target sex are pretty much linked, now aren't they.

We can try split hair over it all, but if you do not pass - at least to SOME degree - you do not present as your target sex, and in fact you are NOT doing any RLE. Quite simple.
Because your Real Life Experience (or 'Test' in older terms) just DOES NOT HAPPEN then, as you do not assimilate with your target sex, you neither integrate with it.

Some folks try to do without any of this RLE and get a NASTY wake-up-call once they really then try to integrate and assimilate with their target sex of transition, and some then de-transition AFTER SRS or FFS, or BA, or what ever!

Going in a skirt every other week to a support group meeting... that is NOT in any way or fashion RLE. Call it what you want but it's not RLE at all.

Just my experience, YMMV
Axélle

I agree with Axelle to a certain degree. RLE is at least trying to pass. Full time is RLE 24/7. Transitioning is not just a token effort to go to the mall in make up and pick out a tube of lipstick IMO.

As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. Before I get side swiped by the whole "BUT CIS GIRLS CAN BE TOM BOY!" routine: how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky at the physiological level) that nobody will.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
I agree with Axelle to a certain degree. RLE is at least trying to pass. Full time is RLE 24/7. Transitioning is not just a token effort to go to the mall in make up and pick out a tube of lipstick IMO.

As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. But seriously, how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky) that nobody will.

Well I think it dependents on your goals. "Butch lesbians" get taken as men all the time. I remember reading about a lesbian woman who got harassed over using the women's restroom and she ended up working with a transgender organization even though she wasn't trans. She just recognized it as the same kind of harassment.

That said, would anyone here say she was "really" a man? I hope not.

I totally respect femme people or people who want to try to pass as much as possible, but I don't think they're more of a woman than people who don't do that.

[Editing this on... I personally do not want to "talk, walk, dress, and act like a man," but it's not really an all or nothing thing. I think people shouldn't give up parts of themselves that they care about and it's not lazy to hold onto those.

Example here is that I am pretty ambivalent about face make up because I find it really really uncomfortable so far and I have trouble with self care so adding another hour onto my morning to work on my appearance isn't really going to work that well during periods where I'm busy 14 hours a day already (it's not like this now but it's not unusual for me). I don't want to have to wear make up to be taken seriously.

I HAVE been working on my voice. Go figure.]

Maybe it's actually what it sounds like.

Real Life Experience - the ability to put theory into practice and experience real life.

I don't think it has quite as much to do with passing, more like regardless of whether someone passes or not, totally blends in or sticks out like a sore thumb, can they function in a day to day world as the person they percieve themselves to be, and live a happy life.

Whether someone totally integrates into society and is never questioned, misgendered or otherwise treated any differently... or vice versa, well... they're both experiences of real life. Albeit perhaps a different life for each. Perhaps it's just a case of "can you handle the way people treat you day in and day out, and still be sure at the end of every day that you are who you think you are?" Rather than "can you blend into society and no one be any the wiser?" Because obviously, for some people, that's less likely than others. That doesn't mean they should be denied the opportunity to see if they can deal with not being the 'stereotypical' woman.

Perhaps someone's real life experience is a seamless blending into society, doing and saying all the right things so no one bats an eyelid. And perhaps someone else's real life experience is a constant struggle to be taken seriously, always misgendered, questioned and mentally exhausting. Both may be doing the exact same thing - living as they believe themselves to be - yet how convincing someone is, perhaps that's not the point. Perhaps it's more "can you handle it?" than "can you get away with it?".

I really like your description of that.

QuoteThat doesn't mean they should be denied the opportunity to see if they can deal with not being the 'stereotypical' woman.

And the line of thinking that says that she SHOULD be denied is exactly why people have been denied transition because of their height, etc.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 22, 2012, 03:51:40 PM
Perhaps it's more "can you handle it?" than "can you get away with it?".

EXACTLY!  RLE is just to make sure you can really handle living as you think you desire, before you HAVE to.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
I agree with Axelle to a certain degree. RLE is at least trying to pass. Full time is RLE 24/7. Transitioning is not just a token effort to go to the mall in make up and pick out a tube of lipstick IMO.

As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. Before I get side swiped by the whole "BUT CIS GIRLS CAN BE TOM BOY!" routine: how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky at the physiological level) that nobody will.

And what makes you think that those of us who object to be told you must do X, don't also do Y, Z, and A?  Sure if you don't do ANY of them then it may be difficult to get recognition, but one, two, or even three of those doesn't make you be automatically be read as male.



**********EDITED TO FIX MY QUOTE TAG ISSUES****************

Quote from: Carbon on May 22, 2012, 03:30:38 PM
Well I think it dependents on your goals. "Butch lesbians" get taken as men all the time. I remember reading about a lesbian woman who got harassed over using the women's restroom and she ended up working with a transgender organization even though she wasn't trans. She just recognized it as the same kind of harassment.

That said, would anyone here say she was "really" a man? I hope not.

I totally respect femme people or people who want to try to pass as much as possible, but I don't think they're more of a woman than people who don't do that.

[Editing this on... I personally do not want to "talk, walk, dress, and act like a man," but it's not really an all or nothing thing. I think people shouldn't give up parts of themselves that they care about and it's not lazy to hold onto those.

Example here is that I am pretty ambivalent about face make up because I find it really really uncomfortable so far and I have trouble with self care so adding another hour onto my morning to work on my appearance isn't really going to work that well during periods where I'm busy 14 hours a day already (it's not like this now but it's not unusual for me). I don't want to have to wear make up to be taken seriously.

I HAVE been working on my voice. Go figure.]

I'd like to start off with: I have no problem whatsoever with those who prefer to be called female, yet go about life doing things in a 100% male stereotype. If somebody wanted to say they're female, even though their presentation is completely male, I'll call them female.

What I have said, and will say, is based on my experiences of society and what I think is reasonable to expect.

I think it's EXTREMELY rare that somebody cis-gender is taken for the opposite sex (outside of developmental / hormonal abnormalities). If they are, and their presentation is that of the opposite sex, can you really blame the outside world for trying to respect that individual based on what they are perceiving them as? The example you list is awful, I feel bad for this girl (and a bit of "stereotypical idiots" feel sparks into my mind when thinking about her) but if her presentation is that masculine I think it just furthers my point that in order to be perceived as your target gender, it is wise to walk within the boundaries of it enough to be successful.

And Sephirah: I agree with it being a more "can you handle it?" than a "can you get away with it", too. But obviously if you can get away with it, you can handle it better!

In the end, it's a struggle to be yourself. If how you present yourself conflicts with your personality, it's likely you'll get harassed.

Quote from: Jeneva on May 22, 2012, 04:03:51 PM
As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. Before I get side swiped by the whole "BUT CIS GIRLS CAN BE TOM BOY!" routine: how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky at the physiological level) that nobody will.

And what makes you think that those of us who object to be told you must do X, don't also do Y, Z, and A?  Sure if you don't do ANY of them then it may be difficult to get recognition, but one, two, or even three of those doesn't make you be automatically be read as male.

That's why I said "and" as opposed to "or"

living fulltime as a woman doesn't mean exactly what you are wearing or what hobbies you like.

Living fulltime as a woman, to me, means you are a woman (meaning you present as a woman...and presents as a woman is presenting as female....not wearing a certain item of clothing or what magazines you buy or what hobbies you have...but it means you present as female).

And that means, to me, you present as a woman at home, at work, when you sleep, when you shower, when you use the bathroom, when you go out, when you eat. It's simply the meaning of who you are.

QuoteIf they are, and their presentation is that of the opposite sex, can you really blame the outside world for trying to respect that individual based on what they are perceiving them as? The example you list is awful, I feel bad for this girl (and a bit of "stereotypical idiots" feel sparks into my mind when thinking about her) but if her presentation is that masculine I think it just furthers my point that in order to be perceived as your target gender, it is wise to walk within the boundaries of it enough to be successful.

What I remember, though, is her saying it started with someone banging on the door and saying "What are you doing in there?" She answered with something like "I'm right where I'm supposed to be" and things escalated from there. Things should have stopped there, not escalated, and that's what you can't blame her for.

I remember a forum with another cis woman who dressed in a very "boyish" way. She said that she didn't care if people took her as male, but that if they started referring to her as a man that she would correct them. "She, not he." You can't really hold it against people for thinking she meant to be taken as male, but they are responsible for anything that comes after she corrects them.

Obviously people who are not gender conforming in their presentation should expect more harassment, but that doesn't mean that they deserve it or that their choices are invalid. One should focus on criticizing the harassers, not the victims, unless she sincerely thinks that  someone really just isn't aware of the risks.

Ditto to AnnaH's response.

Quote from: GhostTown11 on May 22, 2012, 07:07:40 AM
But you're not regular women. I don't mean that as an offense I just mean that you were born male and as such are very Likely of getting read as male more than a cis girl.

Ironic that you try to respond to my generalisation by generalising.

Why am I 'very likely of getting read as male more than a cis girl'. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, there's no reason any fewer people will see it as a duck.

Also I fail to see how you point actually has any relevance to mine. I can only assume your point is that we are somehow more inherently likely to be read as female so we need to do more feminine things to address that. Since I do not agree with the premise, which is that we're automatically more likely to be read as male, I can't support the conclusion either.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 10:36:40 AM
You don't see them doing any of that because they've already done it, lol.

I wish I could get a non gendered ID. In Louisiana, they mark your gender on it.

There's nothing wrong with transsexuals having a gender neutral name. I was thinking about doing it and I'm sure many have done it and presented as female just fine. All I know is every time I tell someone my real name, they either look at me like I'm strange or they immediately go from calling me female pronouns to male pronouns. So I'd say it's quite a big deal for many to change their name so people actually take them as a female.

As far as clothes, same thing. Go ahead and wear whatever you want. If you want to wear boy cut pants with affliction shirts, you must be pretty passable in order for people to see you as a female.

IMO starting RLE is more of a psychological thing. It's when you go out and expect people to see you as a female. You don't really have to look it, although you may get treated insane if you're obviously male going around telling everybody you're female. Starting it is NOT necessarily changing your name, wearing girl clothes, makeup etc.

But as you can see, I'm a girl that obviously likes being the typical girl

Not sure what you mean in your first sentence. But yes, it is pretty cool having non-gendered ID. I used to live in the state of QLD and they do have gender ID's on their licenses, mine said F so it doesn't matter too much, but I agree in principle that ID's neither need nor should have a gender marker on them. Thankfully the state of NSW, and I think most of the other Australian states and territories, do not bother, and simply have your name, address, photo, signature and age on them. Which should be enough to suffice for all the uses of licenses and ID, proof of residence, name, signature accuracy, and age of majority, linked with your appearance.

Feel free to throw that at people who claim we absolutely HAVE to have our gender on our ID's, somehow most of Australia's population seem to do without them just fine.

I believe that physical appearance and voice are pretty much exclusively what will ultimately get you read as biologically one or the other. How you dress, act, etc, are personality traits. Combined with an ambiguous physical appearance, those traits may be just enough to tip you into one side or the other in most peoples eyes, but unfortunately it's not what 99.9% of the population have to deal with.

Quote from: Axélle on May 22, 2012, 12:45:55 PM
My RLE, CLEARLY started when I threw out ALL my male cloths, and PRESENTED! as female, used my best female voice, and started to be ACCEPTED by people as the female I AM. That is 2 years ago by now.

Trying to differentiate about dykie dressing, hair cuts, grumbely voices is NEVER going to cut it, if all those other 'male parameters' we bring along, come into play on top of it all. You will be 'mistered' no end.

So, it be VERY easy to notice if you 'sired'/ 'mistered' or 'madamed' by shop assistants, parking attendants and such folks that do NOT have your ID, in order to be confused/misdirected.

Well, there be NO need to be pregnant - though it WOULD help, if like two TS friends post-op colovaginoplasty have rather large tummies like 7 months pregnant. Being constantly asked when the baby is due... you have to be the age of course, not like me, and have the hassle to get rid of this bauble eventually. NOT EASY AT ALL, - if you can give birth to it!

When I go out, as again today all afternoon shopping, I get compliments for being very stylish... that's just me. Not even wearing nail varnish on my hands, only toes!
But if I'd dress dykie, those looks I'd get... will be more the 'clocking kind' no question about it. I'm 65, 22 month on HRT, no FFS, small boobage 38A that's all.

So, ... some work needs to be done. Transition is no 'free lunch' AT ALL. Believe me, and it can get RATHER expensive – just so long you enjoy the trip

Axélle

Generalisations are the problem here, and I don't claim not to be guilty of it myself.

You have to take age into account, my generalisations were regarding younger women. Women in their 20s dress much more neutral than women in their 60s, it's just cultural norms.

But for most people my age, I believe, how you dress is not going to make much difference in how well you pass, especially if you're read as female, since we're expected to dress in more variety.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
I agree with Axelle to a certain degree. RLE is at least trying to pass. Full time is RLE 24/7. Transitioning is not just a token effort to go to the mall in make up and pick out a tube of lipstick IMO.

As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. Before I get side swiped by the whole "BUT CIS GIRLS CAN BE TOM BOY!" routine: how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky at the physiological level) that nobody will.

WTF is walking or talking like men?

Again, the problem is that a large proportion of the TS community unfortunately don't pass at the physiological level, or don't pass very well, and then project their experiences on younger people who do.

Why can't we act like men? This is 2012, modern women should be able to behave as much like men as they want. This whole 'acting' like a man or a woman are double standards and stereotypes that I don't think have any place in an equal society.

Go look on the FTM side of things, where they routinely dress and act like stereotypical men, and get read as women. Because they haven't started hormones yet and still look like them.

Quote
WTF is walking or talking like men?

Again, the problem is that a large proportion of the TS community unfortunately don't pass at the physiological level, or don't pass very well, and then project their experiences on younger people who do.

I sometimes feel like "the transsexual community"'s standards for walking or talking like women is a caricature of upper middle class white women with no disabilities or speech problems. As in, actually a very definite minority because if you add together poor women, women of color (or from the non-anglosaxon european backrounds), women with disabilties (espicially developmental/neurological disabilities), women from places with strong regional accents (new york, appalachia, etc).

I got told that I walked like a girl when I was a child, but I really just didn't walk like a boy. Besides my smaller steps I don't really walk like a girl either, I just walk weird and that is going to bring attention to me no matter what I do.

Quote from: Carbon on May 22, 2012, 09:00:01 PM
I sometimes feel like "the transsexual community"'s standards for walking or talking like women is a caricature of upper middle class white women with no disabilities or speech problems. As in, actually a very definite minority because if you add together poor women, women of color (or from the non-anglosaxon european backrounds), women with disabilties (espicially developmental/neurological disabilities), women from places with strong regional accents (new york, appalachia, etc).

I got told that I walked like a girl when I was a child, but I really just didn't walk like a boy. Besides my smaller steps I don't really walk like a girl either, I just walk weird and that is going to bring attention to me no matter what I do.

Indeed.

Upper middle class women.... 40 years or older.

Whereas most everyone I know are working class drug users in their 20s, it's not really the same demographic. 

honestly, i think you all are making too much of an issue than it really should be.

Just be yourself. Who cares what other people think (as I would think simply by transitioning that stage has been reached).

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 22, 2012, 06:52:41 PM
WTF is walking or talking like men?

Again, the problem is that a large proportion of the TS community unfortunately don't pass at the physiological level, or don't pass very well, and then project their experiences on younger people who do.

Why can't we act like men? This is 2012, modern women should be able to behave as much like men as they want. This whole 'acting' like a man or a woman are double standards and stereotypes that I don't think have any place in an equal society.

Go look on the FTM side of things, where they routinely dress and act like stereotypical men, and get read as women. Because they haven't started hormones yet and still look like them.

Talking is using a masculine voice. That will get you clocked before pretty much any other non visual cue. Walking is a presentation feature when, put together with other cues, would shift ones perception to understanding you are whatever gender. Acting like a guy will also get you clocked as a male if you aren't passing without question, too.

I had a bunch more to say but it wasn't on topic, so I'll leave it there

Quote from: Annah on May 23, 2012, 12:10:50 AM
honestly, i think you all are making too much of an issue than it really should be.

Just be yourself. Who cares what other people think (as I would think simply by transitioning that stage has been reached).

I agree, but the original question was (I think) regarding RLE, which is a measure of what it takes to be "eligible" for things like SRS.