Quote from: rachl on May 25, 2012, 09:29:17 AM
But, I think, this is the very point of the thread, and definitely the point of my re-igniting it (wow, that really took off). I'm currently thinking about this (in an academic sense), and I'm looking for what people consider to be the official 'start' of one's RLE. I don't think that there is a well defined way to do this, but I'm looking for the diversity of views that I think are out there. Right now, I suspect that the medico-psychological industry thinks one thing, but they're ignoring what it means to be a woman (or a man for transmen) and what it means to begin living "full time" as one's new gender. And part of what they're ignoring is the diversity of how women/men live gendered and sexed lives.

There are some good points here.

I consider my "identity transition" to have completed around Easter 2011. That's when I ceased to think of "David" as the "real me" and began to think of "Connie" as the real me.

But, I didn't start publicly living this identity until September 16 2011, about 5 months later. So, at what point did my RLE start? I think it's safe to say that I wasn't "full time" until September. How does this differ from starting the RLE? I think that from the point of view of my transition process, my "RLE" started when I went "full time." But, it could also be argued that I was "stealth" before that date in September.

I guess it depends on one's point of view. From my POV, my RLE did indeed start when I went full time. And, that's when I started "living full time as a woman" because that was the identity that I was publicly sharing with all those around me.

Ok,  when my friend & co worker came out to the company officially and started her RLE year she jumped in with both feet right off the bat! granted this was 1992 and fashions were quite different then, but first thing she did was buy a pink Corvette and then she immediately started wearing the skimpiest, shortest wildest outfits you can imagine to the office! she was having a great time and had the great attitude to go with it!

As the year went on the clothes got more conservative (at least for her) and she traded the Vette for a new Harley Heritage Softail.

fast forward a couple years later and the fashion was prairie skirts and boots, then eventually back to flannel shirts and jeans.

We always talked about the RLE thing and what it really meant other than exposure to the public as "female" in its many different personal looks and forms. I guess its a way to see if you can handle what the general public will be throwing at you and if you are really serious about the transition and beyond.

She was and always will be a great inspiration to me!!

I don't know?  But I love that people open doors for me now. And I always got stopped if I tried to use the men's room. So now I use the woman's room and thats how I know I'm full time

nothing in particular really. to me, it's all about being myself and being happy.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 23, 2012, 08:40:10 PM
First off, 'in some places' is weasel logic, what places? In what context? That's just playing with words to hijack the argument.

I'm going to ask this one last time, and if you decide not to comment on it again I'm just gonna stop posting in this thread.

Why then do we not have the same requirements for tattoo's, cosmetic surgery, piercings, etc.

This is pathetic, and no, I don't actually have to live with it. I do not recognize the authority of the psychiatric establishment. I will speak out against it and I will speak out against its supporters.

EDIT: When I get frustrated I say stupid stuff that could get me in trouble with the admins so I'm removing it now that I'm feeling a little less enraged by the lack of sound, rational, scientific based argument of hypothetical governmental policies.

Don't worry.  I don't take offense at someone who speaks from the heart.

There are places that don't require the RLE before surgery.

https://www.susans.org/wiki/Real_life_experience

Looks like I really started something here.The IDEA of RLE is fine in theory, but in practice it is dubious.Not only hard to define, but other problems.If someone suddenly goes to work dressed and a woman, and wanting to be addressed by feminine name and pronoun, what they actually  are experiencing isn't so much being regarded as a woman as being regarded as a public curiosity.It definitely would not be the same as starting work  as female to begin with. As far as changing name legally, using the bathroom,until you have actually undergone at least some of the physical changes these may be legally difficult or impossible. It is understandable that doctors want to avoid lawsuits, but it is doubtful that this really does that much good.And since there is no longer that much difference in the way men and women live anyway, how is this going to tell you anything?

There's been a lot to follow in this thread and from a purely pragmatic standpoint wrt to RLE the answer for me in the UK is deed pole name change - which is a legal hoop to jump through to begin change your name everywhere. From an SRS standpoint, this marks the first day of the 1 year RLE period.

IMHO gender is much more than genitals. For me, changing my anatomy won't change my comfort levels in the world, being myself will. A one year "trial" period for my life is a bizarre notion and I think a better process is waiting to be found for surgical intervention.

Like others have said, it's what you say and do and feel. In my mind it's far too abstract a notion for me to define. I can honestly say that I've never really "lived as a man" in my lifetime simply because I've never related to what is typical "male behaviour". That doesn't mean I never learned to do or behave as a "man", but it was never instinctive and/or comfortable. In my experience, a lot of that was me trying to fit in and was motivated by shame, fear, and all the rest of the crap. That for me came from what I perceived about being trans* and my own internal BS about being trans*. Once I got over that, then living as *myself* became a whole lot easier. 

As a woman in society, I don't need to show my genitals to anyone. Getting on with *my* life, interacting with people the way that feels right and is instinctive to me is what "Living full time as a woman" means for me. More succinctly it's: Living full time as myself. Those interactions, and the way that I instinctively conduct those interactions are perceived by those around me as those of a "woman". As much as it's no one else's business how I live my life, society is divided up in lots of different ways with woman/man being at the top of the list. I'm perceived as a woman. Lucky for me, this is what feels right for me.


**edits to clean up some really awkward phrasing

QuoteLike others have said, it's what you say and do and feel. In my mind it's far too abstract a notion for me to define. I can honestly say that I've never really "lived as a man" in my lifetime simply because I've never related to what is typical "male behaviour". That doesn't mean I never learned to do or behave as a "man", but it was never been instinctive and/or comfortable. In my experience a lot of that was motivated me to try to fit in was out of shame, fear, and all the rest of the crap. That for me came from what I perceived about being trans* and my own internal BS about being trans*. Once I got over that, then living as *myself* became a whole lot easier.

very well said and how I feel also!

what if they required for us to show "we are not really male" instead of showing that "we can be female" ?

I agree that the process needs to be reevaluated somewhat

Quote from: Michelle G on June 02, 2012, 11:53:23 AM
what if they required for us to show "we are not really male" ?

Heh. There were soooo many occasions pre-transition that people just looked at me and wondered. And the girlfriends who remarked that my thinking was different. Oh well.

"To thine own self be true"

I do feel like that if SRS were covered under a national healthcare system that there would need to be some kind of system in place to establish that it's actually necessary, just like with any other procedure. This isn't so much to protect from themselves as it is to use public funds in a responsible way.

People in the US are basically paying out of pocket, though, so...

I think the real life requirement has more to do with how others are perceiving you and how successfully you're able to live and function while being perceived by others in that way. It's a requirement design for OTHER people. Not for US. You define you're own "real life experience/fulltime experience" as male or female on your own. The requirement and how you see being fulltime are two seperate things because being fulltime cant be defined, really. it's all very individually based.

Quote from: cryan91 on June 03, 2012, 03:00:58 PM
I think the real life requirement has more to do with how others are perceiving you and how successfully you're able to live and function while being perceived by others in that way. It's a requirement design for OTHER people. Not for US. You define you're own "real life experience/fulltime experience" as male or female on your own. The requirement and how you see being fulltime are two seperate things because being fulltime cant be defined, really. it's all very individually based.

1. It's explicitly offered as an aspect of informed consent for the patient.

2. The diagnosis procedures serve the gateway function. At most, one month of RLE should be required...AT MOST.

There are medically covered breast augmentations (usually downward): they don't require a mental diagnosis or for someone to pretend living with smaller breasts for a period of time. There really isn't a SINGLE analogue to the RLE for any other medically covered procedure. So that reasoning is BS.

Finally! Surgeons typically require the RLE even if the patient pays.

the rle is bs.

I'm writing this to offer support for those people who do not fit into neat categories, or those who do not prefer to wear makeup, or those who prefer not to have their marriage annulled by a legal gender change, or those who for safety reasons are unable to live full time as an unpassable woman. In short, you don't have to, and you can still get the blessed surgical relief the rest of us have (hopefully) enjoyed.

Sorry, don't mean to be categorical, but this is a big pet peeve of mine. As someone who knew what gender I was (NoT the one into which I was born), I resented any directives that placed my gender future in the terms of whether I changed my name or wore a skirt or told people what my gender was. Although I identify as a female, I am more androgynous in appearance. I never liked feminine clothes, although all of my clothes are bought from the female racks. I never liked makeup, but then again, neither does my cisfemale wife, who has supported me through my transition in more ways than I could say. Plus I live in eastern Europe, where very simply put if you cannot pass 100% of the time, you will eventually be physically put to grave danger. I am okay regarding passing, but not 100%. That is not acceptable for me or for my wife. Who, incidentally, would be deported if I changed my passport to F because same-sex marriage is illegal in my homophobic country, and she is an immigrant.

In short, for anyone who knows what they want / need but feel the RLE requirement will significantly ruin / damage their lives, they can be excused by an empathetic psychologist / surgeon. My US psychologist and my being 12 days post-op by Dr Suporn of Thailand can attest to that.

RLE, while trying to minimize the risk of regret for us, fails to understand that for most of us, we've had 20, 30, 40, 50+ years to digest, absorb and understand who we are. They are flexible enough to allow that you might also at this point know how you wish to present yourself to the world. Thank god.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
I agree with Axelle to a certain degree. RLE is at least trying to pass. Full time is RLE 24/7. Transitioning is not just a token effort to go to the mall in make up and pick out a tube of lipstick IMO.

As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. Before I get side swiped by the whole "BUT CIS GIRLS CAN BE TOM BOY!" routine: how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky at the physiological level) that nobody will.

that sounds like the majority of girls in my town LOL

I've been living full time since May 2012.  For a year up until then, I was living as an androgynous being because I would wear men and women's clothing on and off, I would take mens roles when it came to theatre and I just didn't really care about femininity or passing.  For a while I didn't even know I was for sure going to transition.  I finally decided I wanted to transition around February and that's when I started getting serious about being less androgynous, etc but now I'm a student and I recently decided that I like being androgynous every now and then.  I'm still full time but now I can be a full time girly girl or a full time tomboy! Since going full time I always get treated as a woman wherever I go and I love it, it's major reassurance and I think everyone likes some reassurance every now and then lol.  I just know I'm a woman and that's all that matters.

Living full time as a woman is just that living as a woman 24/7. Please do not make it more difficult than it has to be.

Old thread, good topic. I SHALL RESURRECT YOU, thou art a worthy topic!

I never introduced myself to anyone as "Hi I'm chris, refer to me as "he" please". I see no use in saying "Hi I'm ______(any female name), refer to me as "she" please". Last time I checked, some girls have guy's names, some guys have girls names. Many have neutral names.

Do I need to go to everybody I know in my classes and tell them to say "she" now... I don't really know them that well. People know me as chris, so I might legally change my name to Christina or Christine but still go by Chris.

So I will continue to introduce myself as Chris, and I will physically present however I feel at the time, maybe i'll be lazy and wear sweats and a normal t shirt. Maybe i'll wear a hooker dress and heels LOL. Am I presenting as any less feminine by one or the other?

I think bra/ hair is big. Maybe i'm hardcore butch lesbian and shave my head and wear guys clothes... is that "living full time as a woman"... idk. It's different for everyone and a good therapist will know that, especially if you have a decent conversation with them.