concerning ts women, post-op is just a phrase describing you have had "the surgery", or GRS.  that would indicate a vaginoplasty i.e. no testicles or scrotum and no penis. with most ts men, the phrase most often describes "top surgery" or removal of the breasts, with any bottom surgery referred to as extra "bottom" surgery. phalloplasties are rare, extremely expensive and painful, consist of multiple stage procedures, and are unfortunately questionable in patient satisfaction. (although i did meet a man who was happy with dr. brassards results)

post-op or pre-op or non-op is not who you are. we are all people, men and women, and we are taking care of a problem as best we can. we all deserve the rights and dignity afforded to any member of society. in spite of our rather extra ordinary lives, almost all of the ts people i have ever met were very ordinary men and women, and certainly worthy of the courtesy extended to other citizens. 

IMHO, we should always identify with those in earlier stages of transition. their rights are our rights. the children on 20/20 last night broke my heart... and they were much braver than i was. would i tell them that they are not girls yet because they haven't had the surgery? i would rather cut off my tongue. we need to show compassion and understanding for each other, if we are going to demand it from society at large. hugs...

The topic of this thread is titled What constitutes post-op? as it pertains to SRS/GRS (sex reassignment surgery or gender reassignment surgery).  It is not about issues of what makes you a woman, female, whole or what have you.  Let's stay on topic, please!  Thank you.

Quote from: rhonda13000 on April 28, 2007, 10:53:45 AM

Tink, nor anyone else here is maintaining that fatuous conceptualization that gender identity is necessarily and solely a function of genitalia, that the Feds and so many others are doggedly adhering to.

As it pertains to this topic, yes you are correct, I am.  Again, I don't support any notion that a post-op transsexual does not have functional female genitalia, meaning a vaginal cavity, along with labia, a repositioned urethra and a clitoris.  That is what constitutes POST-OP on my book (and the title of this thread) and it is not related to your gender identity, feelings of being female, or whatever else you believe yourself to be.

tink

Quote from: Tink on April 28, 2007, 10:33:26 PM
The topic of this thread is titled What constitutes post-op? as it pertains to SRS/GRS (sex reassignment surgery or gender reassignment surgery).  It is not about issues of what makes you a woman, female, whole or what have you.  Let's stay on topic, please!  Thank you.

Quote from: rhonda13000 on April 28, 2007, 10:53:45 AM

Tink, nor anyone else here is maintaining that fatuous conceptualization that gender identity is necessarily and solely a function of genitalia, that the Feds and so many others are doggedly adhering to.

As it pertains to this topic, yes you are correct, I am. Again, I don't support any notion that a post-op transsexual does not have functional female genitalia, meaning a vaginal cavity, along with labia, a repositioned urethra and a clitoris.  That is what constitutes POST-OP on my book (and the title of this thread) and it is not related to your gender identity, feelings of being female, or whatever else you believe yourself to be.

tink

[annoyed...]

My immediate reaction to this was...that the tone was inordinate.

And I think that I will defer on...additional expression....

Thank God for the changes induced by both transition and HRT.

I think that it is time for this tired old girl to go to bed. 

  again? should i translate my following quote in every language? 

Quote from: Katia on March 31, 2007, 01:29:05 PM
postop means exactly what it implies,  post-operative and since it's [obvious] that we're talking about mtf grs here [and not heart conditions], the term postop refers to having a [vagina] instead of male genitals.  castrations and penectomies arent considered any type of gender reassignment because they're mere modifications.  grs is a conversion (externally and internally). now, some will still argue that grs is a modification, claiming that a postop woman has no uterus or ovaries.  well neither does a woman who's had a hysterectomy, so this pov is also stupid. period.

period. 

Quote from: Katia on April 29, 2007, 02:29:57 AM
again? should i translate my following quote in every language? 

Quote from: Katia on March 31, 2007, 01:29:05 PM
postop means exactly what it implies,  post-operative and since it's [obvious] that we're talking about mtf grs here [and not heart conditions], the term postop refers to having a [vagina] instead of male genitals.  castrations and penectomies arent considered any type of gender reassignment because they're mere modifications.  grs is a conversion (externally and internally). now, some will still argue that grs is a modification, claiming that a postop woman has no uterus or ovaries.  well neither does a woman who's had a hysterectomy, so this pov is also stupid. period.

period. 

[Listening to E. Power Biggs - 'Bach: Great Organ Favorites']



Oh, you are a real vixen, aren't you Katia???

I LOVE it!!!      It would be so delightful to meet you someday, girl!! Perhaps.....

But I awoke this morning feeling reasonably evil [mischievous actually   >] and I thought of Tink's definition and I considered hers in the context of my own present anatomical configuration and it had me wondering [seriously, I'm in a wonderful mood right now  ]....

--I was freaking out [a little. the penectomy vastly reduced or 'de-compressed the TS induced pressure which had become intolerable for me; what could I do?], over the possibility where GRS had been effectively precluded by this procedure.

I contacted one prominent surgeon in Thailand, presenting my case to him in clinical detail. He basically said that he would not recommend colon-section or even standard vaginoplasty [This blew my mind; is not penile inversion generally considered standard GRS - and I had just told him that a radical penectomy had been executed by Henry Ford Urology?  ] for me.

I got the definite sense that linguistic differences would pose a significant problem in gaining the necessary information from foreign surgeons. UNREAL.

So I contacted Dr. Marci Bowers a while back posing the same scenario to her, again in clinical detail [possessing a good command of medical terminology has proven to be very useful, over my transition. How many times I wonder, was I asked,


"Are you a doctor?" or "Do you have medical training?"


"No, I'm only an aircraft electrician."]

[feeling that old, familiar fire] It has been one hell of a journey....

But Dr. Bowers' response to my query?

"We can help you."

But here is an interesting situation, relative to Tink's definition: as it turns out, there are two possible avenues available to me, by which to acquire the needed surgery but the glans tissue, which is commonly utilized to create clitoral tissue, no longer exists.

As it turns out, that deficit will certainly pose no problem in achieving orgasms [that was a massive relief by the way - in more ways than one  >] but it does leave me with no clitoris.

So please tell me: does the absence of a functional clitoris in this future scenario categorize me as 'pre-op' [to some]?

I believe that I will stop here, as I feel my mood shifting in a somewhat negative vector....

Great topic.  I have only read a few pages, but I shall post my views.


I feel that getting an orchiectomy is post op.  The testicles are what is responsible for subataining the male gender.  Even when a men loses them they are most likely given testosterone supplements.  If they can't have supplements for reason x, they are still men in between the ears. 

I think people get blurred because they think the penis is the male sex organ.  It's just a piece of skin that fills up with blood and that's all. 

Vaginoplasty I think is for cosmetic reasons.  The main reason for getting this done is to have a visual representation of the female sex organ.  It is still not the female sex organ.  It does not function like the female sex organ.  Yes, it does also change how you can physically have sex.  Unfortunately, this is something we will all have to deal with in our lives until that wonderful day when science will let us have periods.  Even then it would not make me a woman only a way to reproduce. 

Sex as a noun is all in the brain and hormones in our body.  Sometimes these do not match hence why we exist.  Having sex, as a verb is physical and nothing more then a way to have sex with a part that was produced from testosterone.  In my mind, getting a vagina would be for purely cosmetic reasons and having sex.  It would not dictate what sex I am.  Once my testicals are gone and I have only estrogen flowing threw my body, I would call myself female and post op. 

I tend to think everyone that opposes this idea are the ones that believe "they" need to get a vaginoplasty to be female.  Look in the mirror girl you have been female since the day you were in your mother's womb as an XX with gonads.  It was that nasty moment when testosterone came and introduced your defect.  For an FtM it was that waiting around when testosterone came a little to late or not at all.

Sex is something that we having been changing since the day we existed.  To have it based on
a cosmetic surgery is really a single minded view.  Look around you, this view is evolving hence the creation of transgenderizm. 

~Aurora




   

And again, if you are happy having an orchiectomy and believing yourself to be post-op, that should be the only thing that matters; however, do not expect others to accept your definition of post-op, including the Federal Government, State officials, medical doctors and what have you.

tink

Quote from: Yvonne on March 29, 2007, 10:21:39 AM

QuoteModerator note: The following link contains graphic material.

what?  This is post op.

The specialists in gender identity have gone beyond reality to try to categorize who is a transsexual and who isn't, who suffers from gender dysphoria and who doesn't.   There are many persons who are clearly not transsexual (->-bleeped-<-s and crossdressers) but they have taken over the definition of transsexual the same way they change silky lingerie or choose a new wig.  Transsexuality is not a game, it has nothing to do with being dressed in soft, ballerina dresses.  Transsexuality is a serious medical ailment and very simple to understand. Same thing post-op, it doesn't mean to remove a single testicle, half of a penis, both testicles, or a quarter of a willie!  Post-op in a MTF transsexuals refers to the lack of male genitals (testicles, penis, internal reproductive organs) and the creation of the female vagina as it appears in the link I have given you here.  I'm just bloody tired of people trying to conveniently modify the definitions to their advantage.  If you want to be post-op, be post-op, go to a doctor and have a vagina made, and then say you're post-op.  Until then, you're just fantasizing!

 The only place that really needs to accept my definition of post-op is the place where I was born.  If I can get an orchiectomy and be declared female were I was born by definition, the rest of the world would have to honor that definition.  I could move the US and be declared female in any state.  All it takes is my Birth Certificate and my passport.  Therefore, to the rest of the world, what really constitutes a post op is where you were born.  That is fact in most countries in the world.

This is an open discussion within our community, so it is based on what we as individuals think it should be based on. Not what is necessarily fact.  I feel it should be based on what an individual thinks of themselves and how they would live day to day.  I still stand by what I said about Vaginoplasty being for cosmetic reasons mostly.  If you believe Vaginoplasty should constitute what is Post op, tell me why you feel this way.  Show my your reasoning.  I am interested in all your opinions about my opinions.  That is why I had posted them in the first place.

~Aurora

The day Im post-op.  I want to see a vagina when I look at my crotch.  I dont want to see one testicle or parts of a penis or something that reminds me that I ever had a penis.  I want to be anatomically female, I dont want half of a vagina,  or half of a penis.  I want a vagina.

I would give anything to be anatomically female, but that was not possible the day our X's split into Y.  If a vagina is all you need I am honestly happy for you.  If your penis gives you sorrow everyday then yeah it should probably go, and will be a very happy day for you I'm sure. 

The next few paragraphs are feelings I have never expressed to anyone.  These feelings make me cry a little.... 

To honestly have everything I want.  I would love to have a period.  To be able to feel my body is fertile.  To carry a child for eight months and then produce a miracle.  I will never have these things, and deal with it like any other women does.  I feel a little guilty though.  Unlike the rest of these poor women, I do have a daughter.  I started my transition soon after she was conceived.  I was so jealous of my ex during her pregnancy.  It made me very sad that she could feel things I would never feel.  Someday I will tell my daughter that I would have gladly given my life to carry her to term.  To make the ultimate self sacrifice a mother does in case she does not live and produce another life.

I may be female inside and out, but I will always be a little broken.  I will always be a little jealous.  I will always feel a little guilty.  Having a vaginoplasty will never fix me.  It would never give me want I truly desire.  What do you do when you resent your penis and a broken vagina?  No matter what part I have, I would hate them both.  It is not all depressing though.  This is when I knew for sure my mind is female.  I was happy at least I was in transition.  I was learning to love myself with what I was given.  I have learned to be female even with a penis.  That is what makes me a strong female. 

To know I am never going to have fully functional female anatomy since that day I was born and to accept that fact.  Something we all share as transsexual people in someway.  It is that simple, to be born the wrong sex.  Even if we could have the perfect body we all wanted, we would still be transsexual.  It would be soo much easier to deal with for sure, but we are still born the wrong sex.  It is the only commonality we truly have.  If we were born the right sex, we would not be transgendered.  There is no variance in our condition, only how we deal with it.  If sex has variance and no one was born the wrong sex, we could still have transgendered people, but no transsexuals.  It just makes so much sense to me.

It thinks it is perfectly ok if you need to change your penis into a vagina.  If it makes your happy, I am happy for you.  I just do not care that much about my penis.  My testicals are different.  They have to go.  Not only for legally changing my sex, they are responsible for making my life hell.  They do have there own irony, without them I would never have been a mother.  I am a transsexual woman lesbian mother with a penis that is about to have her testicals removed to become legally post op female.  So many labels, my life could make a good satire.  I only use them is this community.  The rest of the world just knows me as a simple sexy female.  Only a select few know the whole truth about me, and you people I guess. humor me please...I just spent an hour crying over things that I will never get to feel...

Not to say I would never get a vaginoplasty.  There is one reason I would get it done.  If my lesbian wife wanted it that bad.  I would honestly do it for her.  That is a whole other discussion and in the sexuality forum. hehe

If you have an orchi and get arrested, sentenced to prison, and strip searched, guess which prison you're going in?  The men's.  It won't matter how much you cry that you're post-op.

yes, they could potentially put you in a men's prison. injustice and ignorance are a reality for all of us, post op or not. if you have had grs, there is no guarantee that you will receive the same consideration as any other female. and there is always - as in always - the potential for being outed and discriminated against. post-op and grs are not a free pass for anything, except feeling more comfortable in your own body.

But my point was you are much more likely to be put in a men's prison if you have only had an orchi if you have not had GRS.

Quote from: Melissa on May 01, 2007, 02:04:50 PM
But my point was you are much more likely to be put in a men's prison if you have only had an orchi if you have not had GRS.

How can you know for sure?  If you had an orchi and were legally female, why would you think they automatically throw you in a man's prison.  I think they would have to rewrite some law for that.  I am not aware of any case where this has happened.  Who really knows???  In Canada, things are also a lot more liberal.  I have the right to choose whom to be strip searched by, Male, Female, or both in Canada.

If you were legally male then yes, you would probably go to a man's prison.

Prison is the least of my concerns anyway.

~Aurora

Quote from: Aurora on May 02, 2007, 04:30:15 AM
How can you know for sure? 

I didn't say it would definitelyhappen.  Much of it depends on the laws for the area you are sentenced and thrown in prison.  However, it does happen even after SRS:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1598819,00.html

The point is that if somebody is found to have a penis, they will be assumed male regardless of paperwork.  For instance, I haven't had surgery and my license says female on it, plus I pass.  According to local laws (at least in Oregon), I would be placed in a separate prison for transgendered.  The only way they would really know I was TS was if they did do a strip search on me and this would most likely be the case.  They see a penis, then they see you as NOT female.

In fact, did you know that in California there is actually a law to castrate sex offenders after a second offense?

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/336/14/1030

If they perfform orchi's on prisoners, what makes you think they would consider sending you to a women's prison?

Quote from: Aurora on May 02, 2007, 04:30:15 AM
If you had an orchi and were legally female...

According to Amy T. (an attorney on here), you can not legally be female if you have only had an orchi.

melissa, that's a terrific point.  i'm glad you brought it up. 

For a MTF, post op constitutes lack of male genitalia and the construction of a vagina.  Even here in The Netherlands where everything is legal (unlike some countries in the world), a transsexual woman has to be post-op to go to a womens prison and obtain post-op status to get a new birth certificate.

QuoteAs it pertains to this topic, yes you are correct, I am.  Again, I don't support any notion that a post-op transsexual does not have functional female genitalia, meaning a vaginal cavity, along with labia, a repositioned urethra and a clitoris.  That is what constitutes POST-OP on my book (and the title of this thread) and it is not related to your gender identity, feelings of being female, or whatever else you believe yourself to be.

What if the person has "the operation," but a less than satisfactory result? Which results in a loss of clitoral area, labia, or vaginal cavity? Does THAT mean that she is not a "real post-op?"
Even if she had an operation? I mean, the original intent of the term post-op was post-operative. PERIOD.

And would a post-operative woman without a vaginal cavity, or without a clitoris, or without labia go to a male prison? Yes, I am being a little silly, because I am noticing a return to the nasty judgments that were prevalent here a few months ago. We seem to be back to defining people even though not everyone can agree on the definitions.

What if somebody somewhere suddenly decided that only women that underwent colon-resection SRS were post-op, because it is "more-realistic?" Then all of the penile inversion SRS women would suddenly be inferior, and less than post-op. What if they figure out a way to transplant a real vagina from a donor to a trans-op woman? If that surgery became available and prevalent, would that make all of the women of this generation less than post-op because of a change in available technology?

There is always going to be "something better" in the future. But you don't live in the future.
There was a time when being post-op was having an orchiectomy, as that was the latest in technology too. I always assumed that post-op meant lack of penis. But the truth is, that the penis material is STILL THERE on current post-op women, as so defined. It is just inside, instead of outside. The clitoris is still a modified glans, so the nerve connections are still the same. We are all currently limited to the skin we were born with as children.

But then, Bornstein said every cell in her body was changed after seven years, so it could be argued that those new cells in a new form are not what they were at all. Nice thought. I think that it is really important that we each define things for ourselves using I-statements here.

If the f2m community were like the m2f, than almost everyone would be less than post-op.
But for some reason, they don't seem to feel the need to adhere to the latest technology to feel acceptable. Why such a dissonance between the two communities?

If Tink and Katia (love the new avatar) want to define themselves as post-op for having penile-inversion surgery, fine. Since this site is dedicated to empowering people, and not policing people, than I suggest everyone define themselves appropriately, and refrain from creating definitions that label other people. The one common thread to everyone on this site seems to be that society views everyone here, regardless of surgery status to be a little less than "normal." I keep coming back to the same thing over and over and over. We are all a lot more alike than different.

I realise now that I made that stupid trip to the US for nothing.  I spent all those thousands of American dollars in surgery, hotel, recuperation time after GRS for nothing.  I modified my life so drastically to fit my dilation schedule for nothing.  I went through the physical pain of GRS for months for nothing at all.  I just wanted to be a "normal" girl and have the same legal rights as any other normal girl.  Have a new birth certificate, get married, have children through adoption.  I was very stupid.  I could just have had a castration and everything would be as normal as it can be.