I mean I definitely think that what we describe as 'gender' is something that exists, but I think that it's a complicated concept that in everyday life we reduce to a simple duality of boy/girl man/woman etc for sake of convenience.  Back to transsexuality and being 'born female' or 'born male' -- I believe I was born a certain way, and from experience I can describe that certain way as (mostly) matching a female gender, rather than my male biology.  But I'm wary of saying that I was born 'female' because I don't really know what that term means -- it strikes me as something of a comforting idealism rather than anything I could back up with rationality.  All I can definitively account for is the sense of incongruence/dysphoria/etc.

Quote from: Ketsy on April 07, 2010, 01:25:03 AM
I mean I definitely think that what we describe as 'gender' is something that exists, but I think that it's a complicated concept that in everyday life we reduce to a simple duality of boy/girl man/woman etc for sake of convenience.  Back to transsexuality and being 'born female' or 'born male' -- I believe I was born a certain way, and from experience I can describe that certain way as (mostly) matching a female gender, rather than my male biology.  But I'm wary of saying that I was born 'female' because I don't really know what that term means -- it strikes me as something of a comforting idealism rather than anything I could back up with rationality.  All I can definitively account for is the sense of incongruence/dysphoria/etc.

I somewhat agree with this.
I think there is definitely something in my biology that predisposes me towards questioning my birth assigned gender (otherwise any boy with strong female role models and weak male role models would end up trans).

I believe that there are some gender attributes that are linked to our sexual anatomy.  One example is that females are built to receive and males are built to prod, thrust, and enter.  To me, that has an effect on our innate sense of who we are, part of which is our gender identity.  The effects of hormones also play into this.  So there are physical differences between males and females.  (Yes, there is overlap of many attributes, but I'm talking generalities.)

Because of these physical differences between males and females, I think that our "trans-ness" is based on whether who we are inside matches who we are outside.  And if that is the case, there will be transgendered people regardless of the social construct we call gender.

I had a male anatomy when I was young, so people told me I was a boy.  But I identified with the girls and admired their anatomy, hoping my body would correct itself.  I wanted a female body so others would see I was a girl, but I also wanted a female body because I liked it better and thought it would suit me better.  Was I female or did I just want to be female?  It depends on interpretation.

I say I was male (anatomy) but a girl (mind and soul).  I was male but never a man.  Many people don't make that differentiation, but I've found it useful.

- Kate

Whoa, K8, hold up there! Women are built to receive and men are built to prod, thrust, and enter? Tell that to the bottomy gay guys, and to the dykes who like to use a strap-on! Tell that to every submissive man and every dominant woman! That just ain't right, I'm sorry. It plays into the whole "men are meant to lead, women are meant to follow" thing, and it's just not true at all.

Quote from: FlanHusky on April 07, 2010, 11:55:03 AM

* FlanHusky reminds that while the sexuality labels are dependent on gender identity, as a whole, sexuality and gender are separate concepts

Yes, thank you.

I was born a woman in mind and spirit, if not in body. Well, female, anyway. Nobody is born a woman, but becomes one with age and maturity. I say I was born female because all the attributes of my character and personality that align me with other women today were present from the very youngest ages, both in my recollection and in the recollection of those who knew me. If that weren't the case, I'm not sure that I could answer.

Quote from: PanoramaIsland on April 07, 2010, 11:41:13 AM
Whoa, K8, hold up there!

OK.  I didn't express myself well.

There are physical differences between males and females.  There are usually hormonal differences, too, which in turn create more physical differences.  I think that the combination of those physical differences and hormonal differences affect how people, on average, think and act.  We see this in the differences in male and female behaviour that transcend culture.

So, if you have the physical nature of one sex and the mind and soul of another – what we often refer to as gender – you are at odds with yourself.  My body and hormones were male, but my mind and soul – my gender identity – were female.  So, was I male or female?  The short answer is "yes".

To make it easier to make sense of it, I thought of myself as male (body) but not a man (not male in my mind and soul).  I don't think this would be different in another social structure.  Or, more strictly, it would be different but still present.  Therefore, to me being tansgendered is not a social construct or a failure to fit into a social construct but is inherent in my nature of having a male body and a female essence.

Or have I just muddied it more and should now just shut up?

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on April 07, 2010, 06:24:52 PM
OK.  I didn't express myself well.

There are physical differences between males and females.  There are usually hormonal differences, too, which in turn create more physical differences.  I think that the combination of those physical differences and hormonal differences affect how people, on average, think and act.  We see this in the differences in male and female behaviour that transcend culture.

So, if you have the physical nature of one sex and the mind and soul of another – what we often refer to as gender – you are at odds with yourself.  My body and hormones were male, but my mind and soul – my gender identity – were female.  So, was I male or female?  The short answer is "yes".

To make it easier to make sense of it, I thought of myself as male (body) but not a man (not male in my mind and soul).  I don't think this would be different in another social structure.  Or, more strictly, it would be different but still present.  Therefore, to me being tansgendered is not a social construct or a failure to fit into a social construct but is inherent in my nature of having a male body and a female essence.

Or have I just muddied it more and should now just shut up?

- Kate

I'm with you on this, Kate ... Of course there are exceptions to any and every generalization, but it seems to be pretty evident that all sorts of aspects of female and male behaviour match that physical/genital model of the man imposing and the woman receiving ...

For example, to take my own professional field in the media ... if you look at women's magazines, which are written by and for women, they are incredibly inwardly directed. The overwhelming emphasis is on the reader and her emotional, sensual, aesthetic experiences ... her beauty routine, diet, clothes, relationships ... and huge attention is paid to her feelings in every one of these contexts. Stars are constantly held up as examples to emulate by (as it were) bringing her into your life and yourself ... buy a handbag like this actress; go on a diet like this model; bring up your children as brilliantly as this singer, etc.

Men's publications, on the other hand, are much more outgoing, assertive, active ... No man's magazine ever suggests that its readers should copy a top entrepreneur's suit, or get their hair done like a world champion athlete .. these men are held up as examples of external achievement ... and there are lots of stories about money and how to make it, girls who'd be great to screw, sports, outdoor activities ... etc, etc.

This is a massively controversial field, for all sorts of political and scientific reasons ... but if you look at the ways in which we are rewarded by our nervous/hormonal systems, women get a rush of warm, cozy, affiliative oxytocin if they pick up a baby, or even see another woman's baby pics. Men get a massive adrenalin and testosterone boost from being on a winning sports team.

This leads me to wonder if we can ever claim to truly be women as long as we have male bodies, which still respond on a primal, physical level in male ways. The test - as you have clearly discovered, to judge from your many fascinating posts - is what happens during and after transition.

If HRT and SRS give one a feeling of wholeness, contentment and truth, then clearly one is a woman and was always meant to be one. But if they do not, then perhaps it was just a fantasy, or a desire that had no basis in reality.

I cannot honestly say right now: yes I am a woman. But i can say that all my life I have felt profoundly ill-at-ease with my male existence and absolutely certain that I would be happier if I could present myself to the world in female form ... and that's enough to be going on with!

Quote from: misty on June 13, 2012, 01:05:48 PM

I wasn't born female ........I just want to be female

.........does that make me a lesser female.....................or less right to be female ?

I think this fundamentally goes down to the divide between "born as, or chose to" which actually effects all of LGBT.

Born as implies that you had no choice in the matter and that it's being who you are, but can be twisted to say it's a "birth defects" and thus "curable"

Chose to implies that you have made a reasonable and logical or passionate choice to be what you want to be, but can be twisted to say that your choice is invalid or that it's thus something you can choose to not do.

So ultimately it's two coins with sides that people can twist, however regardless of your reasons, your past, your present, or your future, you are what you are and that nothing you believe makes what someone else believes any more or less valid.

If I had to say, I think I was born with the innate desire to be a girl, that it's something I have wanted since before I could remember, and that my proof is a picture where I dressed up in my sister's cute church dress when I was 2, x3 and that I have felt the desire to be female since I had the ability to understand what that was.

But I think if I had just made the choice now, that I wouldn't be lesser, and you aren't as well.

I always been female, 100%

In my own humble opinionmost of us are born females, what happens is it just takes a little bit longer for some of us to discover that we were misgender at birth, that is all.

I sincerely believe that "gender identity" is never a choice.

Quote from: misty on June 13, 2012, 01:05:48 PM

I wasn't born female ........I just want to be female

.........does that make me a lesser female.....................or less right to be female ?

No, it just makes you different from some other folks. Different doesn't mean lesser. All the colours of the rainbow are equally shiny.

Quote from: SourCandy on June 13, 2012, 01:32:42 PMBorn as implies that you had no choice in the matter and that it's being who you are, but can be twisted to say it's a "birth defects" and thus "curable"

Is that twisted? I guess I'm twisted. I see my transsexualism the same way I see my migraines. Genetic trash that I wish I didn't have.

I don't feel the same about my queerness though. That doesn't seem defective to me because it doesn't cause pain.

Is it just me or is this thread full-on high-voltage terrifying?

I mean I never thought I was a woman (though I had lots of trouble getting the hang of being a boy. Might be just because I'm naturally clueless). But over the decades I've developed an intense desire to be one. If I could flip a switch and permanently change genders without hurting anybody I'd do it in a second.

Always been safe to have these feelings, since I knew I wasn't a woman, I wouldn't feel that overwhelming drive to transition.

Now I'm reading about people feeling just like me. And they transition. LIke I wish I could, but I don't know that I want to do that to my body and it would hurt some people I really love. I'm not usually one to avoid stuff, but I wish I hadn't read this thread.

Anyone else have that feeling?

Like anything else, transition has become a casual pursuit, a hobby, an interest, something to do (for many people).

Once people find out about something there will always be those who do it, even if it never would have occurred to them without seeing other people doing it.  Monkey see, monkey do.

As long as you are comfortable sticking with it then perhaps it may work for you and who is to say that de-transitioning later on is wrong?  Especially in an age when it is non-PC not to advocate pretty much anything.

Also what Peky said factors in.

Quote from: Axélle on June 24, 2012, 01:46:50 AM
So now, there is for me ONE HUGH ITEM that makes the difference here, and THAT - is GID.

I hear your story from so many other people that it could be said to be typical. So many Transsexuals talk about being close to suicide before their dysphoria drove them to transitioning as the only choice possible that allows them to stay alive.

I'm pretty sure that will never be me. I had my suicidal period and I will never let myself get to that point. I've learned too many ways of enjoying the world to want to check out early. I don't have the kind of body dysphoria that you and so many others describe.

But I'm hearing a kind of "minority report" from some. They didn't have body dysphoria, never had the strong sense that they were a woman, only that the answer to living the kind of life they wanted to live, lay in transition. All such people, all of them, make the point that the differences between their story and the typical story does not make them any less MtF than those people whose first sentence was "I'm a girl, not a boy."

I want to shut those people out, to pretend they don't exist, to say, I've never thought I was a girl, ergo I'm no kind of candidate for transition. But they do exist, and as I'm not really happy with how I'm fitting in as a male, I'm reluctantly giving them a frightened listen.

I haven't read through the entire thread, and I'm sure similar perspectives have been shared, but here's how I see it. I think the question is faulty. It's this either/or thinking that fuels the Blanchard's of the world. Gender identity is a complex combination of genetics and (I believe) environment, and I'm not sure that simple answers can be found. I feel like a woman inside, but I don't feel comfortable leaning only on genetics. I wasn't born a girl, but I'd suggest that NOBODY is born a girl or a boy. We're assigned a cultural role and we either grow into it or we don't.

Quote from: peky on June 24, 2012, 10:44:38 AMods yes)
Mom: Boys do not wear dresses! (sarcastically)
Me: I AM NOT A BOY!
Mom: OH, YES YOU ARE ! You have a penis !!!!
Me: Oh, do not worry, it will go away when I grow up

That is a cute story and my heart goes out to you as a child.

But how did you ever come up with the conclusion at four years of age that your penis would go away when you got older?  I don't think I even realized that women had vaginae until I was seven or eight.  How did you know about vaginae?  Sorry... maybe I should not ask. O_o ...

Then again maybe you had a very advanced kindergarten school system but if so where did you come up with the idea of body parts disappearing when you got older? O_O .  At four years of age had you been learning about sex reassignment surgery?

Quote from: agfrommd on June 24, 2012, 11:15:59 AM
But I'm hearing a kind of "minority report" from some. They didn't have body dysphoria, never had the strong sense that they were a woman, only that the answer to living the kind of life they wanted to live, lay in transition. All such people, all of them, make the point that the differences between their story and the typical story does not make them any less MtF than those people whose first sentence was "I'm a girl, not a boy."

The human condition is a funny thing.  I remember taking hormones and thinking that they were causing me to prefer the company of men (sexually).  But I had forgotten my past.  I had forgotten who I was.  When I was little my mother accused me of talking and acting like a "little queer" and a "->-bleeped-<-got" (her words).  She was concerned what complete strangers and neighbors might think of me.  She tried to scare me into acting more masculine and it worked, I mean my own mother was shaming me and causing me to fear not being accepted, being singled out and attacked.  And then my father got me to start lifting weights and kept telling me to hold up my shoulders and stick my chest out.  Prior to that I had been sleeping over at male friends houses, engaging with them in sexual activity where I essentially took a more feminine role.  It may not have been right and perhaps it was twisted but it felt right.

But then I was ashamed of having done that.  I thought I would burn in Hell for all of eternity if I continued and I had to be straight.  Fast forward many years and I actually fooled myself into thinking I liked women.  Even though sex with women caused me to go into a deep depression and I knew I could never get married.  I tricked myself into thinking I was normal.

I barely remember my childhood.  The truth is that we only remember little snippets of the past and each time we refer those little snippets the narrative changes a little.  My father told me (again) recently how my grandmother used to always say I was so pretty that I should have been a girl.  But I don't remember that.  It probably upset me at the time and maybe I blocked it out.

When I try to remember the past as someone who transitioned I interpret those vague little snippets a certain way.  I do remember seeing my mother's shoes in her closet and trying them on.  If you had asked me if that had any significance when I was trying so hard to be normal I might have repressed that memory.  As someone who had just begun transition I might have used that incident to justify my being trans or whatever.  Sometimes when you are outside and it is cloudy it means shade, if you just painted your house it means rain.  It is difficult to find meaning in the past, instead I would focus on your intention.  Do what you think is right and if it feels like you then go with it.  If you think it is something you can maintain for the long haul then have at it.

I didn't have body dysphoria, I only had SRS because I didn't know what else to do at the time and my bank offered me a loan.  What I had was a very strong need to interact as female.  I could have kept my penis and been damn happy except I didn't know what else to do at the time and I had the money so I had SRS, and I am glad I did because I didn't realize how much one little surgery that almost no one sees could change my life so drastically and create opportunities.  Also I am not the sharpest person in the world and it took me a while to realize that it was my penis and testes that had stolen my life from me.  I never had any magical genital hatred.  I did hate how sexually driven I was.  I hated being a slave to male sexuality.  I hated that a lot.  I feel so much better.  If back then someone had taken me into the future to show me what life would have been like after transition and then told me I had to wait another fifteen years or however long...  I think that would be like going to a Heaven Dimension and then waking up in your casket back on earth, having to claw your way through the lid and dig yourself out of your grave just to live a Hell-like, miserable existence as a zombie.  Kind of like that episode in Buffy the Vampire Slayer where they bring her back to life and leave her to find her way out of her grave after tearing her from a Heaven dimension.

So there you have it.

And I don't think many of us really understand why we do what we do.  I think most of us tend to make sense of our motivations after the fact and there is a kind of bias there.

Oh... and it is generally accepted as truth that the dysphoria worsen's with time.

I know I was not born female, but it took me 30+ years to actually have the courage to do what is right and become one.  SRS however is not for me, as I am who I am

When my ability to self-determine, my self-image, and my sense of self was born, it was born female. And it wants to be able to be what it is.

So... both.