Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 01:11:10 PM
Girls are expected to be tomboys. Femininity is sneered on and "girly" is an insult (a big step back for feminism in my opinion). They are very competitive especially when it comes to significant others. They are also rather aggressive and people are as likely to get assaulted by girls as they are by guys.
Most guys I've met are much much more laid back. Dads who don't take care of their children are looked down on (as they should be). Many guys care a lot about their appearance and spend a lot of money and time to look how they want (not just "metrosexuals").
Those are just my experiences though and I maintain that this is just based on the people I knew and that individuals can act however the heck they want.

Oh you're Swedish! Lmao

Well, at least your people have their looks!

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 03:45:25 PM
Could mean those things, but that's pretty obviously not what they were getting at, since if you read a couple lines down, they list preferences for the other sex's stereotypical dress and activities as essential criteria.

This all seems like a big to do about nothing.

Society, like it always does, will catch up to the notion that people can do whatever to their bodies and just get over it.

Or maybe I'm just an optimist?

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 03:53:40 PM
This all seems like a big to do about nothing.

Society, like it always does, will catch up to the notion that people can do whatever to their bodies and just get over it.

Or maybe I'm just an optimist?

Obv they'll forget about all of this when the cyborg overlords start invading 

I want to be able to walk down the street and look people in the eye without women worrying I might hurt them and men sizing me up to see if I might be their competition (I'm fine with female clothing competition, I can be stylish).  I want to look and feel sexy (which might or might not mean girly, but certainly in my case means female bodied).  I want sexual relationships that work properly given my body and its wants, which presently aren't my own.  I want many more strong sharing friendships where I can let myself be emotional if I need to be.  In Guy World I've found these all to be pretty much impossible, except for developing some strong friendships--and mostly I've found I have those with women.  The social advantages of being male don't seem to equal out to these advantages, in my view, not for me.  Plus, this body chafes. 

Some of these are cultural things, others are body things.  I don't know which affected me first but, since society integrates both to some extent, I think we have to deal with both together until society comes to treat them as separate things.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 03:59:56 PM
Obv they'll forget about all of this when the cyborg overlords start invading 

How did you know!?

Code red! Code red!

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 03:45:53 PM
Oh you're Swedish! Lmao

Well, at least your people have their looks!

No, I'm Canadian. Still have good looks though.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 01:33:40 PM
It's easier for people to accept that someone is a woman if they remind them of other women. If they don't remind them of other women, then it feels like a miscategorization.

Huh, I think I like the practical portion of your argument a lot better. I definitely agree with that. I'm just not sure the superficial does follow from the internal. But then it may be because I didn't have the same experience of having my gender policed so strongly. I was taking figure skating lessons along with the archery and fencing when I was little. I just never really thought much of it, or of being in classes of 95% women through high school and university. I'm still surprised sometimes to find out things I do or ways I act are considered feminine, because I don't really think that much of things in terms of gender.

I mean my mannerisms are inexplicably within female norms apparently, and I don't know why or how I picked them up. It's sort of a creepy thought for me to be honest. I don't much like the idea that I'm preprogrammed to behave a certain way, or that gender is such an overwhelming determinant. That doesn't mean it isn't true though just because I'd rather it wasn't. But I'd like to see a lot more research done on the topic before I'd be willing to cede the point. Interesting argument anyway.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 03:59:56 PM
Obv they'll forget about all of this when the cyborg overlords start invading 

I'm totally planning on being one of the cyborg overlords. I've already got a ton of metal and plastic in my body. 

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 04:59:55 PM
No, I'm Canadian. Still have good looks though.

Oh hey, I didn't know you were Canadian. I think as a society we do tend towards being a bit less gendered than most, especially in the urban areas. Your case does sound rather extreme though. Kinda cool to be honest. Though I know how weird it can be to be told there is no difference between genders and then... end up trans. Does your head in a bit.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 05:22:08 PM
I'm totally planning on being one of the cyborg overlords. I've already got a ton of metal and plastic in my body. 

Dream big. The cyborg overlords are going to be working for me.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 05:22:08 PMOh hey, I didn't know you were Canadian. I think as a society we do tend towards being a bit less gendered than most, especially in the urban areas. Your case does sound rather extreme though. Kinda cool to be honest. Though I know how weird it can be to be told there is no difference between genders and then... end up trans. Does your head in a bit.

Yep, I'm originally from an urban area although, strangely, it is in the middle of the most conservative province. You're from Canada too?
It sure does my head in.

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 05:32:48 PM
Dream big. The cyborg overlords are going to be working for me.
Yep, I'm originally from an urban area although, strangely, it is in the middle of the most conservative province. You're from Canada too?
It sure does my head in.

Most conservative province in Canada= oil-rich Alberta non?

Oh, dear I feel so bad for you. That's like being born in Texas....

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 05:32:48 PM
Dream big. The cyborg overlords are going to be working for me.
Yep, I'm originally from an urban area although, strangely, it is in the middle of the most conservative province. You're from Canada too?
It sure does my head in.

Umm, I'm not trying to be mean but... Canada still has a male-dominated political system, a primarily male prison population, more men in the work force and a wage gap favoring men over women, with men preferring traditionally male-dominated fields and vice versa for women.

I don't think Canada is really any different than the norm in terms of gender roles 

Quote from: mementomori on July 06, 2012, 01:13:57 AM
i feel too many transgender stories focus on things like " i liked to play with barbies as a child and wanted to wear dresses " i see those things just as social construct and not something thats inate

I guess its because like 95% of the times we need to explain ourself we need to explain ourself in front of cis-gender people how it feel to be a diffrent gender than what your biological sex is or was..

There curious but to be honest I think they never will understand unless they have tried it themself.
So all we can do is to put up exemples they understand.. like
"you know I was like a boy and I liked boyish things and played with the boys bla bla"
its kinda stupid yes But somethimes you need to say it simple to make them understand in the first place..

if a 6 year old ask what math it, you can say math is when you has, 3 appels and then you get 3 more.
Sure that is also math but theres SO MANY kinds of math, But you cant explain that to a 6 year old, he wouldnt understand..

I see it the same way for cis-genders who have lived there whole life in a gender-binary sociaty.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 06:13:34 PM
Umm, I'm not trying to be mean but... Canada still has a male-dominated political system, a primarily male prison population, more men in the work force and a wage gap favoring men over women, with men preferring traditionally male-dominated fields and vice versa for women.

I don't think Canada is really any different than the norm in terms of gender roles 

Yeah it does. It is, however, a huge country. I only grew up in one city and, as I said, I am talking about what I observed. I'm sure someone in Toronto has vastly different experiences just like someone from Vancouver or Victoria has vastly different experiences than someone from Saint John or Fredericton and someone from Yellow Knife has vastly different experiences from someone from Montreal.
Actually, I found that the city I grew up is more tolerant in general than the one I currently live in and I currently live in NB which is kind of weird considering AB's reputation and population of loud conservative ninnies.
I think that using gender roles to explain GID doesn't explain anything and makes things worse. But that may just be me because I hate being confused with a tomboy.

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 06:31:12 PM
I think that using gender roles to explain GID doesn't explain anything and makes things worse. But that may just be me because I hate being confused with a tomboy.

Hmmm, yeah idk.

Ultimately, I believe what I'm saying but then on the other hand, all that really matters is who you are, not what this or that person defines you as. People aren't gonna go around asking, "are you a man? Are you a woman?" They're just gonna make their own conclusions anyway.

So I think even the distinction between tomboy and guy are not that big of a deal if they're similar things. Usually they're not but yea. Really the reason I am going on about how it makes sense to fit in even stereotypically with your gender is because man and woman are words that describe stereotypes in the first place. Like with all stereotypes, only the majority of people fit them, not everyone. I guess I don't know what's so great about the words "man" or "woman" if you're trying to avoid that kind of stereotyping in the first place.

So I do sometimes feel that what people want here is a more just a genderless society, even more than wanting to be a different gender. Sorry if that's a wrong impression though. 

Well, personally, I believe there is more to gender than illogical social fads. I want to overthrow the social fads, yes. They're stupid. But I refuse to believe that they define or having any real bearing on gender. Otherwise, that would make me stupid for being trans* and that would make me despise myself.
(Sorry I talk about myself so much.)

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 06:40:44 PM
Hmmm, yeah idk.

Ultimately, I believe what I'm saying but then on the other hand, all that really matters is who you are, not what this or that person defines you as.

So I think even the distinction between tomboy and guy are not that big of a deal if they're similar things. Usually they're not but yea. Really the reason I am going on about how it makes sense to fit in even stereotypically with your gender is because man and woman are words that describe stereotypes in the first place. Like with all stereotypes, only the majority of people fit them, not everyone. I guess I don't know what's so great about the words "man" or "woman" if you're trying to avoid that kind of stereotyping in the first place.

So I do sometimes feel that what people want here is a more just a genderless society, even more than wanting to be a different gender. Sorry if that's a wrong impression though. 

You have confuzzled me today lol!

Maybe it is just a cosmetic change. I think if you have to force yourself to be more girly, then you may be doing it wrong. It should just flow naturally. That's my one criteria for any identification:

Let if flow bee-yotches!^^

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 05:32:48 PM
Yep, I'm originally from an urban area although, strangely, it is in the middle of the most conservative province. You're from Canada too?
It sure does my head in.

Yes from Canada. I'm from an white, academic, progressive, atheist, upper-middle class family. Both my parents were active in the feminist movement. I think in a weird way they are proud of having a queer trans tomboy daughter, now that they're over the initial shock anyway. Totally gives them a one-up on all their friends. I sprinkle magic liberal-cred pixie dust wherever I go.

(Actually, my parents are pretty much the most awesome parents in the world and I love 'em to death.)

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 06:40:44 PMI guess I don't know what's so great about the words "man" or "woman" if you're trying to avoid that kind of stereotyping in the first place.

Personally, "woman" is just a word used to describe people with my physical form. Doesn't really mean all that much to me. And, ya, I would prefer a much less rigidly gender-defined world. But then I am my parents' daughter.

As I said before, we all weave our own stories to get us to where we are now. Not sure the form the story takes is all that important, just that it got you here. I'm infinitely happier than I was pre-transition. That's the main thing, nah?

As for the convenience (or comfort) of labels, it amuses me greatly that people who don't understand when I say "I'm female but not feminine" seem greatly relieved if I just tell them I'm basically a dyke - because then they've got a stable mental image to wrap around me . It's weird how much people's notion of gender is intertwined with sexuality.

Whoever you think you are, it's never going to be the same as who others think you are, so it's important to prioritise knowing who you are before worrying too much about how you'll be perceived. I gave up "passing" when I stopped trying to be a man. I have a strong appreciation of beauty that many consider a 'feminine trait', but I got it from my dad, perhaps the only positive thing about him was his passion for the lovely (especially in words). To me, the so-called masculine and feminine qualities are just human qualities, and if you're not straight or not cis- or not binary (and I'm none of those), it's easier to jump out of the system (because the system is manifestly not designed with you in mind) and enjoy all the diversity available without feeling obliged to fit.

I do not think the language has yet caught up to what it is we experience being Transgender.  A lot of these terms feel clumsy and inadequate.   When I try to describe what's going on on my brain with my body I find I feel sometimes a horror at it that is untranslatable to someone who hasn't been there.  To know yourself truly and see your body's inability to do anything but betray that knowledge is the everyday struggle.

Society makes it very hard on us because their definitions of gender are so undeveloped.   I think gender identity supercedes expression.  You can be a girl or boy and not express that because of biological incongruities.  But are they incongruities of biology or are they a measurement of the failure of language to give us a safe and dignified space in society?

Quotei feel too many transgender stories focus on things like " i liked to play with barbies as a child and wanted to wear dresses " i see those things just as social construct and not something thats inate

When I was a child, it was the clothing and toys that were so different between boys and girls. I naturally latched on to that, because those were the only things within my power to change. So yes, I dressed like a girl when I could in secret. I loved to play with dolls when I could get away with it.

Now that I'm comfortable. Clothes are of no consequence. My toys are typically male. I don't go for home decorating. I'd rather have a 60 inch flat screen than a new couch. I still eat of cheap dishes. I keep my house clean and well maintained, but it looks like a bachelors den. My hubby digs it.

It's hard to define this thing in terms that we understand. It just is. We either find a way to deal with it or we don't.

Chin up!
Cindi

So Ladies and Gents let me ask what would be your answer if you had to enter a building to save your life, but in order to let you in the gate keeper asks you: "are you female or male?" It makes no difference to him what your answers is as long as it is male or female, he would not question your answer at all, he is just a good bureaucrat that needs to keep a tally. He will not accept answer like: agender, gender fluid, and androgynous, etc

What would your answer be?  What do you base your answer on?