Quote from: peky on July 07, 2012, 09:23:33 AM
So Ladies and Gents let me ask what would be your answer if you had to enter a building to save your life, but in order to let you in the gate keeper asks you: "are you female or male?" It makes no difference to him what your answers is as long as it is male or female, he would not question your answer at all, he is just a good bureaucrat that needs to keep a tally. He will not accept answer like: agender, gender fluid, and androgynous, etc

What would your answer be?  What do you base your answer on?

Male. I would base it on my biological sex.

Quote from: peky on July 07, 2012, 09:23:33 AM
So Ladies and Gents let me ask what would be your answer if you had to enter a building to save your life, but in order to let you in the gate keeper asks you: "are you female or male?" It makes no difference to him what your answers is as long as it is male or female, he would not question your answer at all, he is just a good bureaucrat that needs to keep a tally. He will not accept answer like: agender, gender fluid, and androgynous, etc

What would your answer be?  What do you base your answer on?

Female.

I am legally female. I am perceived as female. My body is as close an approximation to female as medical science currently can manage. As far as I'm concerned I was born a transsexual female - a female with a defect. The defect can be managed, but not entirely cured. My XY genes (assuming I have 'em) only imply who I would have been if I hadn't been me.

Note - I'm talking about physical sex. I prefer to leave gender out of it. Gender is just too muddy and complex.

So that's my story. I also have a version of it as a fairytale. It has princesses and knights. It's a better story really.

Quote from: peky on July 07, 2012, 09:23:33 AM
So Ladies and Gents let me ask what would be your answer if you had to enter a building to save your life, but in order to let you in the gate keeper asks you: "are you female or male?" It makes no difference to him what your answers is as long as it is male or female, he would not question your answer at all, he is just a good bureaucrat that needs to keep a tally. He will not accept answer like: agender, gender fluid, and androgynous, etc

What would your answer be?  What do you base your answer on?

I would say female.  But it's silly not to recognize answers outside of the binary.

Quote from: sfgeek on July 06, 2012, 04:00:46 PM
I want to be able to walk down the street and look people in the eye without women worrying I might hurt them and men sizing me up to see if I might be their competition (I'm fine with female clothing competition, I can be stylish).  I want to look and feel sexy (which might or might not mean girly, but certainly in my case means female bodied).  I want sexual relationships that work properly given my body and its wants, which presently aren't my own.  I want many more strong sharing friendships where I can let myself be emotional if I need to be.  In Guy World I've found these all to be pretty much impossible, except for developing some strong friendships--and mostly I've found I have those with women.  The social advantages of being male don't seem to equal out to these advantages, in my view, not for me.  Plus, this body chafes. 

Some of these are cultural things, others are body things.  I don't know which affected me first but, since society integrates both to some extent, I think we have to deal with both together until society comes to treat them as separate things.

This has been my experience EXACTLY!!!

One thing I'd desperately like to be able to change is the instinctive distrust that women have for me because of how men typically behave towards them.  Building functional friendships with women is a major struggle because of this.  I'm sick of being guilty for others' crimes.  Some of this is societal but some has been bred into the human species through thousands of years of reinforcement.  I personally do not aspire to be like a typical male and I can't understand why they want to behave the way they do (other than they can't help themselves).  The closest thing I can equate this to as a comparable example is my complete disconnect from and lack of understanding of organised religion and the need to believe in a god.  In analysing my disconnect from male behavior I then began to understand my connections to female behavior.  This opened the door to a complete understanding of how all of my interactions with both genders worked or didn't and exactly why.

Fun fact:  Reading this thread while you're still trying to sort everything out in your head is a terrible idea.  Yay, downward spiral of self-doubt!

Quote from: Molly on July 09, 2012, 12:35:40 AM
Fun fact:  Reading this thread while you're still trying to sort everything out in your head is a terrible idea.  Yay, downward spiral of self-doubt!

I am enamored with your mentality - what on earth does that say about me?!?  queue downward spiral

ZEN ANSWER:
There is no right answer generally, only the right answer for you.
To find the right answer for you, requires the right question to begin with.
Sometimes the right question is no question at all.

PHILOSOPHER ANSWER:
I always worry when I see these two letters in the middle of a question: "or".
At least English is ambiguous this way:
1. "or" can mean "it has to be one of these two things. pick one".
2. "or" can mean "it could be this one. it could be that one. it could be both or neither. so do tell."
3. "or" can mean "it could be anywhere along this range of values between the two extremes I mention. where on the range does it fall?"
3. "or" can even mean "one aspect of the thing is a range of variation between these two extremes. Where on that range is the thing in regards to this aspect, and is this aspect dependent or independent of other variables, and if so which and in what way?"
4. A question that doesn't use a qualifier for time, for example "right now" may have a built in assumption that what they are asking is timeless and unchanging.

MEDIATOR ANSWER:
I suspect most of our debate on this kind of question isn't about the answers, but on the unspoken assumption that each of us makes about the meaning of the question. Maybe we can draw out what the question means to each of us and why so we don't talk over each others' answers and deny each others' unique experiences.

GIRL WHO JUST LOVES EVERYBODY ANSWER:
I'm guessing:
Some of us have a brain that is clearly male or clearly female in most if not all aspects.
Some of us have a brain that is a mix of clearly male aspects and clearly female aspects.
Some of us have a brain that is a mix of clearly male aspects and androgynous aspects.
Some of us have a brain that is a mix of clearly female aspects and androgynous aspects.
Some of us have a brain that is androgynous in most if not all aspects.
Some of us have a brain that has aspects that oscillate between male and female.
Some of us have a brain that has aspects that oscillate between male and androgynous.
some of us have a brain that has aspects that oscillate between female and androgynous.
Some of us have a brain that has aspects that fluctuate along the male to female spectrum in unpredictable ways.
All I have said is a gross simplification.
Some of us say that female and male matter, but only in the context of the whole person and the details of their life.
Some of us disagree on what female or male or androgynous etc mean, and use our unique brain, in its present moment, with its unique memory and experience, to decide this for ourselves, or to chose not to decide.
Some of us have heard enough contradictory statements that we just want to forget about the categories and just be.
And some of us are quite confused.
That's all pretty great, if you ask me.

Queue upward spiral of self-affirmation!

Quote from: MadelineB on July 09, 2012, 01:18:25 AM
And some of us are quite confused.
That's all pretty great, if you ask me.

"Life - real life - is a big mess. Thank goodness. And every answer spawns another question; and every question blossoms with a hundred different answers; and if you're lucky you'll always feel somewhat confused."

- Constance, Goodnight Desdemona (Good Morning Juliet) by Ann-Marie MacDonald

Quote from: Molly on July 09, 2012, 12:35:40 AM
Fun fact:  Reading this thread while you're still trying to sort everything out in your head is a terrible idea.  Yay, downward spiral of self-doubt!

We hurt because we love. (Except me; I'm just a brat.)

I.e. Feel free to ignore everyone else when making the decision whether or not to transition. I did.

I think my brain just exploded

One of the biggest sticking points I've had these last few months is whether or not I am mentally male, or mentally female.  It's a really difficult knot to untie.  While I lean towards being mentally male, I don't feel masculine in any real respect.  My internal compass points decidedly feminine.  I feel feminine.  Except my way of thinking and approaching situations seems to be on the male side of things; I inherently understand what makes men tick (perhaps that's thanks to the testosterone?).  But I don't relate to this sense of maleness, and I don't feel like a man.  In a room full of guys, I feel like a girl.  My nature just seems kindred with that of women.  It's where I get the sense that I belong, where I feel at ease—while with men (for the most part), I am on constantly edge, sort of on the outside looking in.  But at the same time, as much as I empathize with women, in many ways they baffle me.  I'd like to think I understand more about women than the average cis-male, but that doesn't make them any less enigmatic.   As though I was born with only half the decoder.  But all that said, I still wish I had been born a girl.  Because in the end, something about being male just seems, I don't know... wrong.

TL;DR:  I need to lie down.  I think I just broke a synapse.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 02:14:57 AM


Idk, am I the only trans person that gets this? I'm pretty sure this is pretty well accepted stuff. Among laymen and behavioral sciencey people alike.

I am right there with you on this.

Quote from: Kelly J. P. on July 06, 2012, 02:20:44 AM
Many trans people would rather believe that masculine and feminine are more construct than natural for a number of reasons. To justify one's own masculinity (assuming MtF), for example, or for the sake of feminism, or just because, being gender renegades, one feels that he or she should have atypical views on gender...

Yes, I think a lot of trans women would rather believe that men and women are exactly the same because they feel that believing that brings them a lot closer to their goals O_o .  And what you said.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 11:45:55 AM
People make up stories about who and how they are, weaving memories and information together, they craft narratives of their lives and identity to understand themselves and to explain themselves to others. They aren't really right or wrong, they just are.

I totally agree and especially with the aspect that transitioners are trying to make sense of the past in order to explain themselves - to themselves.  Because being born with GID is such a conundrum and there tends to be a lot of self doubt one has to work through.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 11:45:55 AM
By the time someone decides to transition, I'm not sure what the story is that got them there really matters, just that the story exists.

Or more importantly that they got there.  And perhaps the story was a way to communicate their needs to themselves.

Everything you said seems right to me, I just wanted to add my thoughts.

Quote from: sfgeek on July 06, 2012, 04:00:46 PM
I want to be able to walk down the street and look people in the eye without women worrying I might hurt them and men sizing me up to see if I might be their competition (I'm fine with female clothing competition, I can be stylish).  I want to look and feel sexy (which might or might not mean girly, but certainly in my case means female bodied).  I want sexual relationships that work properly given my body and its wants, which presently aren't my own.  I want many more strong sharing friendships where I can let myself be emotional if I need to be.  In Guy World I've found these all to be pretty much impossible, except for developing some strong friendships--and mostly I've found I have those with women.  The social advantages of being male don't seem to equal out to these advantages, in my view, not for me.  Plus, this body chafes. 

Some of these are cultural things, others are body things.  I don't know which affected me first but, since society integrates both to some extent, I think we have to deal with both together until society comes to treat them as separate things.

I wasn't able to understand this sort of stuff until I finally admitted to myself that I might have GID.  Then after I had been exploring transition for a while I began to be able to make sense of my situation and my needs and I would have been better able to express them like you did here.

It took me longer to realize that my social situation/needs were a result of my body being wrong.  I didn't understand other trans women who expressed dissatisfaction with their bodies or genitals until I finally came upon the realization that my genitals had taken my female life away from me or 'my' life.  Does that make me stupid or slow?  Perhaps.

Quote from: Molly on July 09, 2012, 11:35:01 AM
One of the biggest sticking points I've had these last few months is whether or not I am mentally male, or mentally female.  It's a really difficult knot to untie.  While I lean towards being mentally male, I don't feel masculine in any real respect.  My internal compass points decidedly feminine.  I feel feminine.  Except my way of thinking and approaching situations seems to be on the male side of things; I inherently understand what makes men tick (perhaps that's thanks to the testosterone?).  But I don't relate to this sense of maleness, and I don't feel like a man.  In a room full of guys, I feel like a girl.  My nature just seems kindred with that of women.  It's where I get the sense that I belong, where I feel at ease—while with men (for the most part), I am on constantly edge, sort of on the outside looking in.  But at the same time, as much as I empathize with women, in many ways they baffle me.  I'd like to think I understand more about women than the average cis-male, but that doesn't make them any less enigmatic.   As though I was born with only half the decoder.  But all that said, I still wish I had been born a girl.  Because in the end, something about being male just seems, I don't know... wrong.

TL;DR:  I need to lie down.  I think I just broke a synapse.

Part of what gives us our sense of who we are is our situation.  When I am around my parents I begin to feel like I (the female) am dying and like the corpse (the male) is being exhumed and dragged around.  It is because my parents (accepting as they are) think of me as their son who transitioned, rather than as the woman I am.  I can only tolerate being around them for short amounts of time because of this.  When I was more early in transition I would suffer for weeks after being around them for hours.

Needing to transition equals being in a wrong situation.  Our situation gives us a sense of who we are, in ways we are probably not even aware of.  Also many of us have a sense of obligation due to our situation, an obligation to respond a certain way.  I think that is what kills me around my parents.

For myself transition seemed really scary and uncertain.  There was no guarantee that I would ever be able to function in Society as female.  There was no guarantee that people would "accept" me.  Also I remembered thinking, "What are the odds that I have GID?"  I seemed too average, too poor and too un-famous to be trans.  I remembered thinking that only television people could transition, only television people rose above the mundane.  How could I be like that?  There was no way I could ever even afford to transition let alone what were the chances someone ordinary like me could have GID?

As men and as women we are what we do.

When you are following your path, the path or life that is right, you will know it.  Certainty comes from experience.  As long as transition remains a couch trip it will always be debatable.  But once you begin making progress and having experiences you will soon be able to ascertain whether transition is right or wrong for you.  Experience is also the way to conquer fear.  If you never make any mistakes you aren't trying hard enough.  Do.  Don't think, do.  Then you will know.

I have always been female, as I was born intersex.  My parents were not conducive to my transitioning when I was young, as they were conservative, so I had to put on this "male" role for 3/4 of my life.  I learned how to act like a guy, but I never was able to have male/male normal relationship.  I was not gay, so it made life very difficult, especially since i did not know anything about sports, and most adolescent boys interact with sports and then girls.  I was totally screwed, because I am a bi female.

I have a little (?) problem with ALL of this... how does one KNOW the difference of: mentally "male" or mentally "female " 

As it happens, we ONLY can really know who we are. Ever. And we can make projections from what we see and perceive about what others SEEM to be.

I spoke to one married young woman early during transition about this "feeling female" situation. Guess what? The only time SHE actually felt 'female' was when she dolled up and very purposefully PROJECTED a female image. Only THEN.
Otherwise she was just who ever she was - in her inner self-recognition - just the SELF – no EGO involved. Period.

BTW, the exact same I can tell for myself. If I'm all on my own, not dressed, no make-up, just me, just the SELF... I'm just ME, no EGO involved, nothing to show, nothing to project, nothing to prove. Whatever that SELF is... and since GID is gone... I'm right back who I always was - MYSELF! Really.

It can come as some sort of shock, that after ALL this transition stuff – we seem right back to us, to our very own SELF.

One 25 year post-transition woman expressed that same thing to me last year in Phuket and said: "I wonder what all this actually was all about..." And she is a US trained gender psychologist...

I think I know now what she was referring to.

Where does THAT leave 'mentally male/female' I wonder? She was simply female for/to me – and for herself? Just herself, is what I guess. What a PRODUCTION!!! A thousand and one fears and tribulations and in the end... you ARE – who you are. What EVER that happens to be...

ONLY, if I'm stepping out, 'putting on my public persona' then things 'male/female' become apparent. VERY apparent.  So much so, that if I'd look too male to myself, or to others, or God forbid, being sir-ed, then the jig is up, and I'd be most unhappy if it happens. Just the IDEA of Mister, Herr, Sir sends me into a spin, as Mrs, Frau, Ma'am, Madam, is what I want, wish to hear, and expect. Amen.

We have a certain IMAGE of who we wish/perceive to be, based on our 'natural' inclinations, the way we naturally act, naturally present.
If that fits much closer to female THEN one might call this 'mentally female'?

Yet a LOT of the time this passes our consciousness, our awareness. ONLY, if we are VERY self-conscious will this actually come into our AWARENESS.
Like dressed to kill, maybe when flirting, not even sure..., most of the time we are who we are.
If anything, it will be OTHERS that be more of a judge of one's being male/female mentally rather then we ourselves!?

Some MtFs can make for rather embarrassing females/women, not only in looks (my opinion), yes they do --- and then quite some cis-female do quite so as well...

As I said, I got a little problem with this 'mentally male/female' notion...

YMMV,
Axélle

  Mentally Male or female?  To me it is an undefined term like dividing x into zero. 
  Joelene

Quote from: Joelene9 on July 10, 2012, 01:58:18 AM
  Mentally Male or female?  To me it is an undefined term like dividing x into zero. 
  Joelene

Ah, said the astronomer ---or was it 'ass-burger'? 0÷x =

Just kidding,
Axélle

http://femmeftm.tumblr.com/ this is kind of related to this thread , there a feminine transmen who prefer what society deems as " feminine/ female " clothing but i dont think this makes them any less ftm than a ftm who presents as mauscline

I really don't know how I feel about it. I would like to say I have a female mind just because I deeply want to be a girl. At the same time though biologically my mind is a male (as far as I know), and I haven't had the same experiences or hormones that girls have in the real world yet.

To try to explain it to people I tell though, I usually tell them to think about me as having a girl mind in a male body.

I also try to distinguish sex and gender though. Everyone biologically is a male or female, but then there are genders boy or girl. I am male, because I haven't had a surgery yet or started hormones, but I am a girl at heart.