I just have some things to say about trans men and dating/being with a lesbian. Most people say one of two things: 1) she must view you as a girl or 2) she is disrespecting you by identifying solely as a lesbian, and if she's dating you and finds you attractive then she's not a lesbian. Both of those statements or anything similar CAN be true but CAN ALSO be complete and utter bulls--t! My girlfriend and fiancée is a lesbian. She has been for years. I know for a fact that she has never once viewed me as female nor does she not find me attractive. She very much views me as male, knows I'm a man (better than I do sometimes) and finds me attractive. She is still lesbian. She still finds women sexually attractive and is still mostly attracted in nearly all ways to women. Thing is, she fell deeply in love with me. Whether I'm a man, woman, chicken or a bird, she is in love with me. She struggles with the fact that she will be with a man for the rest of her life, not because she doesn't love me, not because she doesn't find me attractive, but because she is a lesbian. She sees guys as bros. Many times she even sees me as a bro, but knows that she loves me more than anything in a much different way than that. She doesn't want it to be a wife and husband/bro relationship and we are going to work through it.

Quote from: Brayden on July 18, 2012, 02:47:17 PM
My girlfriend and fiancée is a lesbian. She has been for years. I know for a fact that she has never once viewed me as female nor does she not find me attractive. She very much views me as male, knows I'm a man (better than I do sometimes) and finds me attractive.

If she finds you attractive as a guy and sees you fully as such, she is not truly a lesbian, at least by the definition of that identity.
She may be bisexual or pansexual, again by the definition of those identities, but not a lesbian.
Your description of your girlfriend loving you, as a person, regardless of what you are would make me believe that she would fall under the pansexual category though.

Ok sure I'll give that a woman can date a man and still ID herself as a lesbian, but she is not solely a lesbian otherwise she would not have fell in love with a man.  I personally would never date someone who ID's as a lesbian especially if she is going to continue to call herself one while dating me, a man.

Well.. words are words..
im bisexual, but I do not mind if people call me gay or straight,
Neither do I mind call myself gay, (I do mind calling myself straight, because.. I seem alittle too queer for that LOL)

I must admit I never could be in a relationship with a lesbian, or straight guy,
for me they should at least be bisexual, or admit to be alittle bi-curious. I wouldnt trust them otherwise, even if they said they loved me, as a guy I would still be forever suspecious which wouldnt leave to anything good.
also I feel strange by them to use the word. I wouldnt say I was in a gay relationship either, so for me it would annoy me alot like a deal breaker.
--
I do know ftms who are in relationship with lesbians. One of them had to lose all her friends of the lesbian comunety to be with a ftm, which also is very sad.

Personally I deep down belive we got a very wide sexual orientation, as having exeptions of a little or bigger point. I do often feel I get alot of exeptions of people I arnt attracted to. I dont see why lesbians shouldnt have those exeptions. as one of my girl friends say. "I am hetrosexual, exept for my girlfriend"

generally its not important how our relationships work out, as long they work, if your both feel its fine for her to be lesbian, then thats what matters.
People say I should be pansexual, because of my sexual orentation, but I honestly dont fell confortable with the decribtions as something who suit me. so I am bi

These sorts of things are always better viewed as a spectrum rather than just 2-sided.

For example I'm in pretty much the same situation, I have only ever been physically attracted to females in the past, and that seems unlikely to change.. but currently I have a boyfriend because our emotional connection surpassed the need for physical attraction in the beginning. The main thing is to be open minded and soon the eyes will agree with the heart.


Unfortunately most people don't understand that these kind of situations can even happen, so when someone asks me if I'm gay/straight I just say "don't know, don't care"

-Chris-

My co-host, who still insists on self-labeling as gay, is currently dating a woman. We've been using the term homoflexible. We were just talking about his dilemma on the last show. I admit it's confusing to me but I think people's identities are up to them and should be respected.

But I'll be honest. This video baffled me to no end. This guy passes EXTREMELY well and is very good-looking as a guy. I couldn't understand why he would consider lesbians as a dating option. What would they find attractive about him? In your case, you were dating before transition. That seems a little different to me. It's not like you're going out and seeking lesbians to date like this guy.

Not being disrespectful, but I'm honestly just curious.  Why does it seem like so many lesbians who date FTMs are so hell-bent on clinging to the "lesbian" label?  I guess because labels seem so shallow and unimportant to me, it's hard to understand.

I think the majority (not all!) of lesbians who date FTMs only date us because they think we are "safe" men.  I feel like they basically view us as REALLY butch women.

Quote from: Andy8715 on July 18, 2012, 08:35:17 PM
I think the majority (not all!) of lesbians who date FTMs only date us because they think we are "safe" men.  I feel like they basically view us as REALLY butch women.

You know, I kind of think this too.

Agree with earlier posts.. it's cool if that's how she wants to identify, but sexuality isnt something merely identifiable,(meaning, sexuality doesn't just come with categories that we DECIDE to be put into, because we like the names) it's biological. Just as you are biologically a male(just not conventionally, or cisgendered in the fact that your genitalia doesnt match who you are). If she is attracted to you - as a male - then she cannot fully be a lesbian, as that pertains to being attracted to ONLY females. I would suggest that she's more pansexual, with a strong preference for women...  or atleast, lesbian with exception..

I haven't had any sleep, so that probably makes no sense... but we'll roll with it and pretend that I made that clear enough for everyone to grasp.

I say be who you are, let her be who she is, and if you both love one another then it doesn't matter how either identifies. Youre who she's gonna be with, and vice versa. Screw what society or anyone else has to say.

When transistioning first came up and we discussed our fears, her major fear was not knowing who she was anymore. She's identified as a lesbian since she was 14 (she's 22 now) and now that will change and her and I will be viewed as a straight couple. Also, she was worried about not being openly viewed as part of the community. I told her if she likes the label so much she could keep it but that it didn't make sense to me because she has admitted to being more pansexual before I even thought about transistion. She just thinks and worries too much.
In my opinion, labels are labels. Everything is fluid and if you spend too much time trying to put it in perfect lines you will waste a lot of energy for an impossible task.

Personally, I believe in the scale idea and labels are too restricting.
As for why someone would cling to the label, I have heard that bisexuals used to be shunned. Maybe it's left over from that?

I've been skulking around here for almost a year now and never bothered to post anything, but this is something that's always bothered me and I suppose I'm gonna come out of hiding. Or something.

Is it just me or do a lot of the people (not all) who run around talking about how bad labeling is, how we shouldn't judge people and what not, some of the first to label their sexuality? It's like a new fad as well... in some communities, 'cliques', and age groups it's cool to be gay. OBVIOUSLY I'm being extremely black and white right now but I'm fairly sure this can't just be in my area. It's bad to label and call people names but if you're gay, bi, pan, asexual, or whatever it's cool to tell everyone who will listen. Again, I'm being really black and white here and mean no offense.

I agree with a lot of the other posts. I don't care how people identify, if she sees herself as a lesbian that's great. In fact, I'm dating a 'heterosexual' guy and TONS of people here would be against that. He likes women and me for some really strange reason! Plus, he met me after I came out. He didn't meet a tomboy or a girl who decided to be a guy. He met a childish guy who he got to know... He is perfectly fine with people seeing him as gay, but he really isn't. Many people might think he's bi-curious but if the subject ever came up, he and I would probably say he's straight because he doesn't actively seek out men, women, and other identifying people. He only tries to date women.

But what I'm trying to say (which is coming out horribly cause I'm not fully awake, sorry!) I think the underlining uhh... 'thing' I guess, for lack of a better word, is that a lot of lesbians see it as more than their sexuality. I suppose it's more of a way of life for them, they want to be in the community. Which she'll lose if she no longer identifies as one. Though maybe not because a lot of transmen still identify as a lesbian (which I personally hate... but I'm gonna shut up on that). Anyone following? The OP could be saying the two of them are like me and my boyfriend in that she likes women and him, leave it at that because it's simple! No need to argue on that, in fact, I don't see why people care so much to push the new 'appropriate' label.  But from what I've seen it really has nothing to do with that for most women and is more about the community. I only say this because of where I grew up there is a really strong lesbian/feminist/EXTREME feminist community that I tried very much to avoid since I never once identified as one. Though my mother tried her best to make me one but that's a whole other story!

Some people may cling to the lesbian label because they're afraid of losing their community. Especially if they've identified as such for a long time. I think claiming a new identity can be tough for some. Plus, maybe they feel like they can't function without their label. I personally would be upset if my partner identified strictly as a lesbian since she's dating a man, "lesbian" wouldn't entirely be true. Or, she sees me as female which is a bigger insult.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on July 19, 2012, 12:43:08 AM
You know, I kind of think this too.

Uh, hopefully not the last part of it.

I don't fully understand what you're trying to accomplish here.

There's a lot of flexibility in sexuality. There are some lesbians who might one day fall for a man (cis or trans). It just means they have some flexibility in their sexuality. When I first sorta came out I had a relationship with somebody who at the time IDed as a lesbian. Part of it was the sense of community she had, part of it was that she had never loved a man before. So, we started dating. I'm still the only man she's ever loved and might actually be the only person she's ever really loved three years later. Many "rules" have their exceptions. You're not supposed to go through a red light but if there's a fire truck behind you with its lights flashing and there's nowhere to move left or right, you go through the light.

I did notice (however) that the last time I saw her was in January. She was no longer interested in me at all in a physical way because my appearance had changed from hormones. My being hairy was a complete and total turn off but as it was the result of hormones, and something I kinda needed it felt like a total bummer. I guess it was maybe that she didn't think I would go on T as I wasn't on it for a long time, or maybe actually confronting the fact that I had wanted these changes that she didn't was what happened.

Currently...I try to steer clear of lesbian identified people in terms of dating. It might limit my potential dating pool by...a lot but I've dealt with an excessive amount of badness from dating lesbians in the past and I'd rather try to minimize that.

If you want to date somebody that identifies as a lesbian and you're both happy, then awesome. If you say "hey, I'm not going to date lesbians because I would feel uncomfortable" then good for you. What works for one person might not work for another.

To be honest, I don't get it.  I'll probably never get it.  But if you are happy, she is happy, who the hell cares?

Quote from: four_est on July 19, 2012, 08:08:14 AM
Is it just me or do a lot of the people (not all) who run around talking about how bad labeling is, how we shouldn't judge people and what not, some of the first to label their sexuality? It's like a new fad as well... in some communities, 'cliques', and age groups it's cool to be gay.

I haven't noticed that exactly, but I have noticed in my hometown that it was common for young women to claim they were bi. Some are, but others showed no actual interest in women.

Quote from: JasonRX on July 19, 2012, 10:33:32 AM
Uh, hopefully not the last part of it.

I don't fully understand what you're trying to accomplish here.

I don't understand why you quoted my response to his post...

ETA

I read, and re-read, and I've come to the conclusion that you're assuming I think FTM guys are butch women? If that's right, all I gotta say is you guys got a hairpin trigger for jumping to conclusions. What I THINK is exactly what Andy already stated: I think the majority (not all!) of lesbians who date FTMs only date us because they think we are "safe" men.  I feel like they basically view us as REALLY butch women.

Don't know how thinking the exact same thing could be misinterpreted.

I think people can't help who they fall in love with even if its against what they normally find attractive I will admit that back in high school I tried to date men even though I wasn't really attracted to them and ended up liking one of them it was the only time I probably ever would actually like a man that way. I like women always have always will I will not put myself into a label but that's just me.  The girl I am currently seeing identifies as lesbian so i asked her why would she like me she knows i am one day going to have a penis and I am a guy if not physically but mentally already. She knows this and she likes me anyways basically she said yes she only likes women but she also believes in love and she feels that if she truly loves me that she wont care what body parts I have because i am still me. Like i said you can't help who you fall for does that make it any less real that they usually only like one or the other but for some reason or another fell for someone who happens to be the wrong gender?