As usual I have something to say and I am not sure how it will be received so let me preface this with this....Often when talking to Brooke she says things critical about herself. Like she nit picks different traits or features that she deems masculine or unacceptable for passing etc. Ok so here goes...

So many of the things Brooke is worried about (and some of you from posts I have read) seem off base to me as a GG. For instance...Brooke thinks she can't wear spaghetti strap tops because her shoulders are too wide. While this MAY be the case for some it really is not the case for her. In fact, I am sure my shoulders are broader then hers and many of yours and I wear spaghetti strap tops all the time. I see what she is seeing, but I also see that the *view* she is looking from is skewed because of GD and what she *thinks* a GG is supposed to look like. I know there are charts and this and thats that say females are this and that etc, but the reality is we come in all different shapes and sizes.

I have an hour glass shape, very busty and hippie. I am not skinny, but I am not obese. I have a bit of an athletic build and am somewhat muscular from Martial Arts, but also that is the way my genetic makeup is. Do I look in the mirror and wish I was smaller? Prettier? Had a better nose? Straighter teeth? Longer hair? Narrower shoulders? Sure I do. Do I do things that negate my flaws? Of course. Everyone does. Do I dwell on them? NO and nor should any of you.

I understand how important passing is and granted as a GG it isn't something I have ever really worried about, but I think that many of you - Brooke included, worry about things you really do not need to worry about. I hate the fact you pick yourselves apart, because after a day of picking there has got to be little *positive* left. I am not an unattractive woman and I am also not a beauty, but most of what makes me attractive to others is my personality and my confidence level, not my appearance. I find when I let my flaws be magnified by myself then I am miserable and self loathing. I don't feel pretty or sexy or even female at those times. If I don't when I do that how can any of you?

Of course, no one is how or who they want to be.. part of life and being human, especially in our culture. My guess is that as TGs, we are so used to being self-critical, feeling wrong deep-down, in body and soul. Yes, everyone should be at peace with themselves, at some point.. not so easy.. but it's what we strive for, in therapy, with all the changes we make, all the obsessive thinking we all do. At some point, saying "knock it off!" is appropriate!
Blessings, Tara

Quote from: Tara on May 07, 2007, 11:45:52 AM
Of course, no one is how or who they want to be.. part of life and being human, especially in our culture. My guess is that as TGs, we are so used to being self-critical, feeling wrong deep-down, in body and soul. Yes, everyone should be at peace with themselves, at some point.. not so easy.. but it's what we strive for, in therapy, with all the changes we make, all the obsessive thinking we all do. At some point, saying "knock it off!" is appropriate!
Blessings, Tara

Tara I agree, but I think it is more than that. I really am getting the impression that some of what ya all think is the way it should be or has to be is incorrect.

I mean, yes I know that in general there is x-amount of space from the bottom of a mans nose to the top of their lip, or that a female chin is usually only so wide etc....but really....look at all the women you all encounter everday. The variences are huge! Do I look like a man because I have broad shoulders and muscular arms? I don't think so.

I cannot agree with you more.
I think part of the fault is kind of an inner dialog in the TG community, that by in large is NOT healthy.  I cannot count how many times I have seen people talk about BA or FFS, when in reality neither was necessary.  Basically I know some of the TS girls who are B cups who talk about BA.  I am sorry, at that point it is not necessary (though I may argue it may not be necessary at all in nearly all cases).  Or people who basically look dead on female talk about FFS.  There is an extreme amount of self criticism, and quite a bit of it comes from a type of social isolation coupled with certian ideas that are largely accepted in trans community. 
The thing is most TS look inward so much that they often forget to be observant to notice the wide variation in women out there. There is a point to being self critical, but sometimes there needs to be a bit of a reality check as well.  There would be a great deal of cost savings and less recovery time from surgery. 

The truth is because of the amount of social isolation there is rarely somebody there saying "you know that is completely unnecessary".

It is true women are critical of themselves at times, but trans women take it beyond a point of reason at times.  Because of this self acceptance is never really achieved by these people. 

I am fortunate enough to have quite a few of my close friends be GG and be very accepting.  They actually have been helpful about this. 

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 12:42:31 PM
I cannot agree with you more.
I think part of the fault is kind of an inner dialog in the TG community, that by in large is NOT healthy.  I cannot count how many times I have seen people talk about BA or FFS, when in reality neither was necessary.  Basically I know some of the TS girls who are B cups who talk about BA.  I am sorry, at that point it is not necessary (its not even necessary if you are an A cup and have a small frame).  Or people who basically look dead on female talk about FFS.  There is an extreme amount of self criticism, and quite a bit of it comes from a type of social isolation coupled with certian ideas that are largely accepted in trans community. 
The thing is most TS look inward so much that they often forget to be observant to notice the wide variation in women out there. There is a point to being self critical, but sometimes there needs to be a bit of a reality check as well.  There would be a great deal of cost savings and less recovery time from surgery. 

The truth is because of the amount of social isolation there is rarely somebody there saying "you know that is completely unnecessary".

It is true women are critical of themselves at times, but trans women take it beyond a point of reason at times.  Because of this self acceptance is never really achieved. 

I am fortunate enough to have quite a few of my close friends be GG and be very accepting.  They actually have been helpful about this. 

yep yep, that is what I am getting....I also think it has something to do with what each TG perceives as *pretty*. I mean obviously every woman (well most) wants to be pretty or sexy. That is just part of who we are. So for a TG transitioning and trying to reach their ideal of girlhood I think they are looking at the very images of women that make GG's wanna kill themselves. Unrealistic women.

Ironically, I had this same conversation yesterday with my wife... but about HER.

She has this delusion that she looks "weird" to people, like her various parts (nose, mouth, teeth, hair, etc.) are abnormal or something. She's actually a bit afraid to even be seen at times.

And I TRY to tell her she's adorable, cute... with a body and face most GGs and M2Fs would KILL for. But she just won't see it, she sees individual PARTS, taken one at a time and out of context... which makes ANYONE look odd. I mean, have you ever seriously studied a nose up close? I mean they are WEIRD things... just stuck on a face, sticking out... bizarre.

But that's not how people perceive others. They see a PERSON, not parts. They get an overall impression, make a snap categorization, and let it go at that. Unless you give them something REALLY incongruent (beard and skirts come to mind), they don't go any further. The impression "sticks" until invalidated by something WAY outside the norm.

Same with her being cute... it's not about her nose or mouth or anything as parts, it's how it all comes TOGETHER. Taken individually, anything can look odd out of context. But taken together as a whole, they can create incredible beauty.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on May 07, 2007, 01:17:13 PM
Ironically, I had this same conversation yesterday with my wife... but about HER.

She has this delusion that she looks "weird" to people, like her various parts (nose, mouth, teeth, hair, etc.) are abnormal or something. She's actually a bit afraid to even be seen at times.

And I TRY to tell her she's adorable, cute... with a body and face most GGs and M2Fs would KILL for. But she just won't see it, she sees individual PARTS, taken one at a time and out of context... which makes ANYONE look odd. I mean, have you ever seriously studied a nose up close? I mean they are WEIRD things... just stuck on a face, sticking out... bizarre.

But that's not how people perceive others. They see a PERSON, not parts. They get an overall impression, make a snap categorization, and let it go at that. Unless you give them something REALLY incongruent (beard and skirts come to mind), they don't go any further. The impression "sticks" until invalidated by something WAY outside the norm.

Same with her being cute... it's not about her nose or mouth or anything as parts, it's how it all comes TOGETHER. Taken individually, anything can look odd out of context. But taken together as a whole, they can create incredible beauty.

~Kate~

Maybe you should start having conversations with yourself and take a bit of your own advice.

TWC,

You are so right, and I guess I'm one of the worst.  I confess.  As I sat in on Sandy's consultation with Dr. Z, and then with a professional makeup artist I learned all of those same things.  And I thought I should just give up.  But I learned that a lot of GG's fix those things with clothing choices or makeup!  So, in the end, what's the biggie?  I mean I want a new nose, higher cheek bones, eyelid surgery, and we could go on.  But will it make me more feminine?  Not really.  I am trying to be the best I can, then free myself to slavery to things I cannot change.  Than, in the end, WILL make me more feminine.

Thanks for a thought provoking post.

Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on May 07, 2007, 03:08:59 PM
TWC,

You are so right, and I guess I'm one of the worst.  I confess.  As I sat in on Sandy's consultation with Dr. Z, and then with a professional makeup artist I learned all of those same things.  And I thought I should just give up.  But I learned thaty a lot of GG's fix those things with clothing choices or makeup!  So, in the end, what's the biggie?  I mean I want a new nose, higher cheek bones, eyelid surgery, and we could go on.  But will it make me more feminine?  Not really.  I am trying to be the best I can, then free myself to slavery to things I cannot change.  Than, in the end, WILL make me more feminine.

Thanks for a thought provoking post.

Kristi

Kristi,
If that is your picture, you definately DO NOT need FFS. 

Some of the people who already posted on this I have read about them desiring FFS or BA, that do not need it (and I will be the FIRST to tell you if I have seen your picture that you do not need it).  Prime examples of how one can be extremely critical.  The truth is it is often absolutely not necessary.  There is a line with being transsexual and making yourself a victim of patriarchial ideas of ideal beauty as a female.  When you pass as female and begin taking on the bad societal concepts of beauty and feminity and obtaining surgery to obtain that...it is crossing that line where its not gender dysphoria anymore, and you become a victim of impossible ideals of feminity that are largely imposed by the patrairchy. 

I am sorry, if you pass, you do not need FFS or BA.  I may sound a little extreme in that opinion, but if you have a naturally feminine face and body, you are exchanging it for one that is not and just perpetuating a NEGATIVE stereotype with regards to TS whether you realize it or not. 

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 04:06:28 PM
Kristi,
If that is your picture, you definately DO NOT need FFS. 

Um, and get this: she's not on HRT or anything either, yet she is passing perfectly.  If she ever did decide to transition, she would be one of those people who had an easy time in regards to face and body.  I'm not sure about hair though since I've only seen her with wigs.

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 04:06:28 PM
I am sorry, if you pass, you do not need FFS or BA.  I may sound a little extreme in that opinion, but if you have a naturally feminine face and body, you are exchanging it for one that is not and just perpetuating a NEGATIVE stereotype with regards to TS whether you realize it or not. 

Yeah, I know.  For some of us it just takes a bit of time to accept ourselves.  I have gone back and forth on FFS because there is a certain way I would love to look, but then on the other hand I have many people tell my I look hot (even people who do not know I'm not GG).  But that is with makeup and my hair done how I like it.  Still, the second reason is really helping me change my opinion of myself.  It may yet be a while and perhaps may involve me doing bolder and bolder things while still passing to become confident enough in myself.  At this very moment, I'm quite happy with myself.

As for BA, I just need my breasts to fill out a little (not necessarily a bigger cup).  According to my doctor, this should happen with HRT still and SRS might be enough to give it the boost it needs.

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 12:42:31 PMpeople who basically look dead on female talk about FFS. 

>


One word: vanity.

There are things that bother me about my face, others consider them inconsequential, I pass flawlessly without question and according to many I'm rather attractive. However I know I'd be happier in myself if I had my forehead done, nothing else bothers me, just the forehead and some day when I have the money/time out from work/studies I'll do it.


Though I am in two minds about this, on the one hand I love that my look is very au natural and I don't want to loose that. I can't stand being percieved as fake or phoney so i have a strong aversion to cosmetic surgery, however what's there at the moment bugs me allot and i know it could be fixed.....


fyi this is a very raw picture of me: http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8963/photo191xf8.jpg

When people expect lower of you, you just have to beat their expectations, and then them themselves. And demonstrate that their opinion is pure ignorance to the obvious facts.


I live my life like that, and I won't make exceptions for this. It's not about being perfect, not at all, you just have to beat the ones who look down upon you at their own game.

Quote from: Melissa on May 07, 2007, 04:32:13 PM

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 04:06:28 PM
Kristi,
If that is your picture, you definately DO NOT need FFS. 

Um, and get this: she's not on HRT or anything either, yet she is passing perfectly.  If she ever did decide to transition, she would be one of those people who had an easy time in regards to face and body.  I'm not sure about hair though since I've only seen her with wigs.

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 04:06:28 PM
I am sorry, if you pass, you do not need FFS or BA.  I may sound a little extreme in that opinion, but if you have a naturally feminine face and body, you are exchanging it for one that is not and just perpetuating a NEGATIVE stereotype with regards to TS whether you realize it or not. 

Yeah, I know.  For some of us it just takes a bit of time to accept ourselves. 

Melissa and Amy,

I was essentially agreeing with what you are saying, though I appreciate the compliments.  I think you have to realize that there is one element here that is crucial for some of us:  time   I am still pretty new at this and self-acceptance is not easy, nor is it accomplished overnight.  But I do think it's the most important thing about passing.  I'm learning.  I just sometimes ask for a little affirmation and patience.

Kristi

The popoular phrase is 'you are your own worst critic'. I can empathize with some of you in a way. I always want what I do to be perfect, but it rarely is.  Speaking from personal experience, self esteem is probably the primary building block of who we are. Its important that we do all we can to address the core root of the issue, be it therapy, confronting the people that hurt us in a manner that is safe for us, and finding healthy, non-harmful ways for us to move past the issues that cause the emotional pain. Hence, don't introspect, because you'll only depress yourself. Rather share your ideas and thoughts; accept yourself for who you are and, whilst trying to improve yourself, still know that you are not somehow inferior. You are only inferior if you let yourself be.

Quote from: Mawd on May 07, 2007, 04:57:03 PM
Though I am in two minds about this, on the one hand I love that my look is very au natural and I don't want to loose that. I can't stand being percieved as fake or phoney so i have a strong aversion to cosmetic surgery, however what's there at the moment bugs me allot and i know it could be fixed.....

fyi this is a very raw picture of me: http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8963/photo191xf8.jpg

Actually, Mawd, I wouldn't know your birth sex if I didn't know you from these forums.

In myself, when I criticize how I look and obsess over minutiae that no one would ever notice besides myself, it seems to be a lack of confidence, a fear, that I try to overcome by being as perfect as I can be in my presentation.

This lack of confidence is directly related to my self-esteem as an evolving woman, rather than a finished one, and it feels a bit like what I've seen in my teen aged granddaughter's approach towards herself.  I hope that in time, and after many reassurances and validations, I will be able to accept myself as I am and know that no matter how I might look, I'm the woman on the outside that I am on the inside.

hugs & smiles
helen

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 07, 2007, 11:34:23 AM
As usual I have something to say and I am not sure how it will be received so let me preface this with this....Often when talking to Brooke she says things critical about herself. Like she nit picks different traits or features that she deems masculine or unacceptable for passing etc. Ok so here goes...

So many of the things Brooke is worried about (and some of you from posts I have read) seem off base to me as a GG. For instance...Brooke thinks she can't wear spaghetti strap tops because her shoulders are too wide. While this MAY be the case for some it really is not the case for her. In fact, I am sure my shoulders are broader then hers and many of yours and I wear spaghetti strap tops all the time. I see what she is seeing, but I also see that the *view* she is looking from is skewed because of GD and what she *thinks* a GG is supposed to look like. I know there are charts and this and thats that say females are this and that etc, but the reality is we come in all different shapes and sizes.

I have an hour glass shape, very busty and hippie. I am not skinny, but I am not obese. I have a bit of an athletic build and am somewhat muscular from Martial Arts, but also that is the way my genetic makeup is. Do I look in the mirror and wish I was smaller? Prettier? Had a better nose? Straighter teeth? Longer hair? Narrower shoulders? Sure I do. Do I do things that negate my flaws? Of course. Everyone does. Do I dwell on them? NO and nor should any of you.

I understand how important passing is and granted as a GG it isn't something I have ever really worried about, but I think that many of you - Brooke included, worry about things you really do not need to worry about. I hate the fact you pick yourselves apart, because after a day of picking there has got to be little *positive* left. I am not an unattractive woman and I am also not a beauty, but most of what makes me attractive to others is my personality and my confidence level, not my appearance. I find when I let my flaws be magnified by myself then I am miserable and self loathing. I don't feel pretty or sexy or even female at those times. If I don't when I do that how can any of you?

An 'occupational hazard'. While I do admit that this can become obsessive, there is merit in being 'situationally aware' and circumspect.

I find it [going to excess] almost impossible to avoid and this indeed, adds a great deal of stress to life.

It's a product of both condition and history.

Many of us have a healthier perspective of this; I do not and I have indeed, found this to be very stressful and painful.

Quote from: Mawd on May 07, 2007, 04:57:03 PM

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 12:42:31 PMpeople who basically look dead on female talk about FFS.

>


One word: vanity.

There are things that bother me about my face, others consider them inconsequential, I pass flawlessly without question and according to many I'm rather attractive. However I know I'd be happier in myself if I had my forehead done, nothing else bothers me, just the forehead and some day when I have the money/time out from work/studies I'll do it.


Though I am in two minds about this, on the one hand I love that my look is very au natural and I don't want to loose that. I can't stand being percieved as fake or phoney so i have a strong aversion to cosmetic surgery, however what's there at the moment bugs me allot and i know it could be fixed.....


fyi this is a very raw picture of me: http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8963/photo191xf8.jpg

You look great. 

I am terminally jealous of those who still have quite a bit of hair on their head when they transition (it is my only regret with transitioning at 28).  See what you have is a little issue with yourself.  I have a big issue that will keep me from passing without a wig and eventually hair transplants (I am passable now, though flat chested, with a wig).  That is my only problem, and it is an expensive one to fix in a real way.  Luckily it is probably the only issue that is easy to cover up (literally) if you are smart about it and have good aesthetics.  (To tell the truth one of my GG friends has begun wearing wigs because she has basically killed her hair through extensive use of hair dye, and she is 21.)

Everybody has vanity, but it is knowing what is vanity and what is actually needed.  This is hard to distinguish for some.  I have a pretty good grasp on what I would like to look like with HRT, and I have no issue with it.    To me it would bring the small changes to push me into looking female.  I need HRT, I need SRS, and eventually I will get sick of wigs and will want to fix the hair problems.   

i believe it depends on the person. some people are very hard on themselves, they torture themselves over the smallest and most petty mistakes and make their own lives a living hell by not taking things easy. on the other side, some people never question themselves or the validity of their actions, and end up being selfish and insensitive jerks that only care about their personal welfare and harm everybody else around them. both extremes are bad. i'm trying to be in the middle.

Hmm... I'd like my spine shortened by five inches, my legs lengthened by about 4 inches, and my rib cage reduced by 10 inches.  I'd like a longer neck, smaller boobs, and a smaller head. Can you do that stuff? Otherwise, I look fab! 



Seriously, I don't worry too much how tom boyish I look. I don't worry much about what I wear around here either.  It's self confidence girls ... the way you walk, talk, and behave!  That's what gets you by.

Cindi