Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 08, 2007, 04:47:16 AM
Hmm... I'd like my spine shortened by five inches, my legs lengthened by about 4 inches, and my rib cage reduced by 10 inches.  I'd like a longer neck, smaller boobs, and a smaller head. Can you do that stuff? Otherwise, I look fab! 



Seriously, I don't worry too much how tom boyish I look. I don't worry much about what I wear around here either.  It's self confidence girls ... the way you walk, talk, and behave!  That's what gets you by.

Cindi

I was talking to another sister about dieting, just last night. I told her that I was fanatical about my figure and diet, but she topped me when she said that she was engaged in Bulimia and that she would stop the practice when she attained her 'ideal weight'.

I do not at all like the sound of this and I am concerned about her.

I know all about the Bulimia thing.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 08, 2007, 04:47:16 AM
Hmm... I'd like my spine shortened by five inches, my legs lengthened by about 4 inches, and my rib cage reduced by 10 inches.  I'd like a longer neck, smaller boobs, and a smaller head. Can you do that stuff? Otherwise, I look fab! 



Seriously, I don't worry too much how tom boyish I look. I don't worry much about what I wear around here either.  It's self confidence girls ... the way you walk, talk, and behave!  That's what gets you by.

Cindi

Cindi, don't take this personally, but you're a twit! 

You're a twit, but I love and respect you. 

Rhonda, that's the best compliment I've had all week!  Of course it's only late Monday.... or very early Tuesday morning...  and I live alone out in the boonies... and my dog doesn't talk much let alone give me compliments!

Naw... my wish list is totally absurd!  I was just kidding.  You notice there's not anything on that list that most people mention when altering their body.

I'm tall and I'm proud.  I used to wear heels to work every day.  I fixed the thing that I didn't like and I'm fine with the rest of me for the most part.  I tend to worry much more about other things. 

Cindi

In another thread, I just put I looked pre HRT,
and seeing those pictures you'd understand why
I would think I needed lots of "help".

But, after 5 months on HRT, I looked female to most others, but not too myself... there was that long nose! That brow bossing that stuck my eyes in deep shadow in the sun. I always had hair accross my eyes outside.

Also, 3 times in a month, a guy read me and HAD to say something to his girlfriend in a voice high enough I was sure to hear (like that proved their masculinity, that sure pissed me off!) Women who read me, I'm sure there were some at that time, kept their opinions to themselves.

At the point of these photos. 5 months into HRT.


As you can see, the angle and lighting makes a big difference in how "female" how looked and I was just tired of being self consciuous about it. I took the decision to do get a rhino+get my brow bossing done Would any one else had done it, who knows? All I know is that

I've estatic about the results. That angle picture right in the noon sun would have looked much different before. In this case, I don't think it was vanity, although my mother keeps saying that doing the brow bossing was useless... I beg to differ. BTW, initially, I only wanted to fdo the bossing, that's the one I was most self-conscious about; but, Brassard (yes the one who does SRS) convinced me to do the nose too (it cost a lot less when doing 2 ops at the same time, only cost $3000 extra to do the rhino).

That's me, last week, 10 months HRT, 4 months post surgery

That looks like good work keira.

The trouble I have with most FFS jobs is when they just look fake and when you do minimal bone work like that shown it works really well, it's like you're peeling back the effects of T. 


Someone mentioned wide shoulders a while back.... Ever noticed how supermodels have really wide shoulders? it's an attractive feature and it makes you look thinnerin proportion, my shoulders are not especially wide but they're about right for my frame, it's not worth getting obsessive about things like shoulders/height when most natal girls would kill to have that supermodel look, I'm 6'1 and instead of spending every waking moment hating how tall I am I just work with it and see it for the advantages it brings. 

Yes, I have the same criticism Mawd,
Many want (and some particular surgeons encourage it) try for a summun of facial feminity, not  the female version of themselves if T had not modified things. The results, range from fantastic (if that's the look that suits you) to a totally bland, generic female face. Esthetics is a subtle thing not to be triffled with lightly; most attractive female face are striking, to be striking there has to be some angles somewhere (jaw line, nose, eye orbit, etc.). Esthetically, a higher nose bridge is sought and many of the most beautiful women, have eyes accented by a significant orbital rim; It acts like a natural makeup. People with little orbital rims and low nose bridges often need makeup, so their eyes are not lost in their face.

In my case, I could have set back my orbital rim further (bensimon, who works in brassard's office, does the more aggressive FFS), but then I would have had to get a much lower nose bridge and a button nose (the basic doctor O look). With my strong cheekbones, and small upper eyelid, it would have thrown my whole face out of balance. I would probably have ended looking chineese. Which is fine, if you're indeed chinese; but that wasn't me.
.
Anyway, from straight on, in not too bright lights, I look subtly different, but mostly the same. I see that the eyes are much more open; before, I felt my brow crushed my eyes.  From the side or at an angle, I look much different and that coupled with the fact that most people have trouble remembering faces from angles means they won't recognize me until I face them straight on.

Quote from: Keira on May 08, 2007, 05:56:48 AM
In another thread, I just put I looked pre HRT,
and seeing those pictures you'd understand why
I would think I needed lots of "help".

But, after 5 months on HRT, I looked female to most others, but not too myself... there was that long nose! That brow bossing that stuck my eyes in deep shadow in the sun. I always had hair accross my eyes outside.

Also, 3 times in a month, a guy read me and HAD to say something to his girlfriend in a voice high enough I was sure to hear (like that proved their masculinity, that sure pissed me off!) Women who read me, I'm sure there were some at that time, kept their opinions to themselves.

At the point of these photos. 5 months into HRT.


As you can see, the angle and lighting makes a big difference in how "female" how looked and I was just tired of being self consciuous about it. I took the decision to do get a rhino+get my brow bossing done Would any one else had done it, who knows? All I know is that

I've estatic about the results. That angle picture right in the noon sun would have looked much different before. In this case, I don't think it was vanity, although my mother keeps saying that doing the brow bossing was useless... I beg to differ. BTW, initially, I only wanted to fdo the bossing, that's the one I was most self-conscious about; but, Brassard (yes the one who does SRS) convinced me to do the nose too (it cost a lot less when doing 2 ops at the same time, only cost $3000 extra to do the rhino).

That's me, last week, 10 months HRT, 4 months post surgery

Kiera, you look a bit like Tori Amos

Quote from: Mawd on May 08, 2007, 06:37:08 AM

Someone mentioned wide shoulders a while back.... Ever noticed how supermodels have really wide shoulders? it's an attractive feature and it makes you look thinnerin proportion, my shoulders are not especially wide but they're about right for my frame, it's not worth getting obsessive about things like shoulders/height when most natal girls would kill to have that supermodel look, I'm 6'1 and instead of spending every waking moment hating how tall I am I just work with it and see it for the advantages it brings. 

That would be me talking about my wide shoulders and what I had said was I do not feel having broad shoulders makes me look any less of a woman.

TWC,

My wife always asks me, "Why do you hate yourself?"  I always answer, "I do not hate myself."
.......

BTW Keira  you are pretty.
................

W

I agree with Wendy. You are pretty, Keira.

Is this a new trend that so many people are posting photos? It makes me feel good to know that so many are coming along and are feeling confident about themselves. I also like the posts where the writers acknowledge some imperfections, but are handling them so well.

I just had a guy tell me I was beautiful yesterday while I was walking from my work to the train.

Apparently my face must be fine.   As for my body itself, other than the genitals, I'm pretty happy with it.

QuoteKristi,
If that is your picture, you definately DO NOT need FFS. 

Some of the people who already posted on this I have read about them desiring FFS or BA, that do not need it (and I will be the FIRST to tell you if I have seen your picture that you do not need it).  Prime examples of how one can be extremely critical.  The truth is it is often absolutely not necessary.  There is a line with being transsexual and making yourself a victim of patriarchial ideas of ideal beauty as a female.  When you pass as female and begin taking on the bad societal concepts of beauty and feminity and obtaining surgery to obtain that...it is crossing that line where its not gender dysphoria anymore, and you become a victim of impossible ideals of feminity that are largely imposed by the patrairchy. 

I am sorry, if you pass, you do not need FFS or BA.  I may sound a little extreme in that opinion, but if you have a naturally feminine face and body, you are exchanging it for one that is not and just perpetuating a NEGATIVE stereotype with regards to TS whether you realize it or not. 

Congradulations darlin', you have just crossed over to the real world.   

Welcome sistah-grrrl, T.

So, getting back to the orignal question.
Others could I said that I looked fine,
and I didn't need to spend 10K to fix myself.

But, you have to remember that we have a big body
image problem, we KNOW we would not look like
this if T had not done its job. For some, T didn't
have too much effects and they can live with them; for
others, the effect have been traumatic for their self-image
and fixing them will bring congruence between mind and
body.

I don't think its being hard on yourself to abhore having
a significant brow bossing or a big honk nose.
To feel the bossing like a brick on my forehead
sticking out!!  Its the possibility, with the popularisation of FFS,
of fixing this problem, that gave me hope, that
helped me take the step forward to transition, I
did not want to see a male in a mirror; and in my
case, until doing the surgery, in spite of HRT, that's
what I saw.

I think being critical of oneself is only bad if its about something you cannot change. Our process is about so many changes that some find repugnant, or incredible, or whatever; why would wanting FFS be different than wanting SRS, they're both about matching mind and body.

There are things, like the possibility of having children, that we have to give up, and I can live with that.... Because I have too. But, if it was suddenly possible to have an uterus implanted safely, I'd be first in line.

BTW, I do think you look great Mawd. I saw the pre-photo and you look 10000 times better as a woman :-). The bossing looks very light in that picture, but its hard to judge it without having a light shining straight above (you saw the my middle picture in the sun, that's probably the least flatering picture I have; my bossing looked horrible in that one). A similar picture of you could tell if really you have a significant bossing, or its all in your head, or on your forehead... In this case ;-). I think its very light, because I saw your old male pictures in the sun and it wasn't really visible on them  (when its significant, its visible). One advantage of removing the bossing is that it opens the eye even more; you already have large beautiful innocent eyes, so I can't imagine how they could be more open :-) (my eyes are more the piercing mysterious type).

An example of a very  attractive female with significant bossing (and a significant jaw line) is the model/actress Molly Sims. It shows clearly in pictures of her; she's in the TV show Vegas.


Thanks, for the compliments everybody; many tell me this, but I still have my old depressed image in my head. Feeling pretty and also confident is something I'm working hard on. Tori Amos... A bit yes. I supposedly look like Molly Sims, though I think I look more like Vanessa Marcil (another actress on the same show), Jennifer Love Hewitt (Ghost Whisperer) or Rebecca Romijn (she has a very good jaw line). Maybe I look like everyone ;-).

Quote from: Keira on May 08, 2007, 12:27:20 PM

So, getting back to the orignal question.
Others could I said that I looked fine,
and I didn't need to spend 10K to fix myself.

But, you have to remember that we have a big body
image problem, we KNOW we would not look like
this if T had not done its job. For some, T didn't
have too much effects and they can live with them; for
others, the effect have been traumatic for their self-image
and fixing them will bring congruence between mind and
body.

I don't think its being hard on yourself to abhore having
a significant brow bossing or a big honk nose.
To feel the bossing like a brick on my forehead
sticking out!!  Its the possibility, with the popularisation of FFS,
of fixing this problem, that gave me hope, that
helped me take the step forward to transition, I
did not want to see a male in a mirror; and in my
case, until doing the surgery, in spite of HRT, that's
what I saw.

I think being critical of oneself is only bad if its about something you cannot change. Our process is about so many changes that some find repugnant, or incredible, or whatever; why would wanting FFS be different than wanting SRS, they're both about matching mind and body.

There are things, like the possibility of having children, that we have to give up, and I can live with that.... Because I have too. But, if it was suddenly possible to have an uterus implanted safely, I'd be first in line.

There is a point where a line is stepped over where it is no longer about being TS and looking more feminine.  By definition there are image issues that is true.  FFS is VERY differant than SRS though, because for many...it is never needed and it is just vanity, and it is sourced in a lack of perspective and observation, impossible societal standards and what I call "community isolation".  I am a person who views FFS as necessary for some (those who do not pass) and completely cosmetic for others (even when they say they still saw a male, especially when they are extremely feminine looking to begin with) where it does not stem from being trans anymore.  I know I am an outsider in this perspective in the trans community, but it is a perspective that I think is actually a bit more grounded.  I am by far the largest critic of FFS.  I don't necessarily see it as a congruence issue, and I don't see it as important as SRS.  I think this is where being overly critical of oneself, coupled with ideals of the patriarchy regarding femininity, coupled with the the idea of some in the trans community that FFS is as important as SRS come to create an unhealthy dialog regarding FFS.   

I don't think a real debate over FFS has really taken place where there is a critical perspective on the issue and a deeper analysis.  I think any commentary has come from those who are major supporters of it, many of who have the same "trans community capture" and lack of perspective that I mentioned. 

I understand the need for congruency (I have major major issues with it myself), but at the same time self criticism, community capture, and unrealistic ideals imposed on women in society do take over in a way that really should not be there, and as much it can be argued that it is congruence, it really is not anymore.  Sometimes outside or critical perspective on these issues can be very helpful, but this is where fear and shame do take over for many. 

Maybe all of my ideas have been schooled into me by my riot grrl and feminist friends over the years, along with my own perspective on these issues of being somebody with a gender studies background.  The trans community does fall into the worst traps of the patriarchy sometimes, and there really needs to be a dialog on these issues to break itself free.  There really is a lack of discussion with regards to what is congruence, and what stems from a lack of a wider perspective (looking almost exclusively inward without a meaningful outside perspective). 

As much as I understand the arguement you are stating (and the proponents of FFS) Keira, I still see major flaws in it.  Even if you can change something, the criticism of yourself may be completely unjustified and it is usually a lack of an outside neutral (yet supportive) voice that perpetuates that inner criticism.  As much as this can be personal, that societal element is what proves to be a barrier to self acceptance.

Keira wrote:

QuoteThat's me, last week, 10 months HRT, 4 months post surgery

Keira, it was worth every penny. The changes are subtle but make a world of difference.

Cindi

Keira, I am not going to criticize you for the minor amount of surgery on your face.  It was very subtle but it did make a huge difference in your profile, and I can see why you were self conscious about it.  If I just saw the front of your face I would have said it was not necessary, but looking at the old profile, I could see why you thought it was necessary. 

Amym, I don't take much personally anymore, I'm kind of getting mellow.
But, I do like a good discussion as long as it stays away from personal attacks.

Feminist theory (if I can call it that) is itself very provincial and insular and that's why it is withering in the general population.

A theoritical assault on patriarchy won't matter much if someone can't find a job or a partner because of their appearance

First, who decides that a TS passes enough, that alone has as many meanings and degrees as there are TS's and external point of views on TS's. The implication itself of not passing depends on the macro and micro environment the person lives in; someone living in TS aware SFO may have a difference perspective on this than someone living in India or Cleveland. In some places, people don't blink at a man in a dress with a beard (like in the gay village in Montreal), while in other places, someone who passes almost perfectly risks a beating and possibly death every day. At work it has a different meaning than in a private situation with a possible partner or with friends. It also depends on if you want to stay stealth or not.

So, passing is not simple, not a yes or no proposition in the absolute, but a rich cameleonesque tapestry.

So, should we cue ourselves on the person with the most sensitive TSdar on earth or just go for the average one in our local environment? Of course, there's no real way to find out what's that average is (though we can get an approximation), or who is this super duper TS detector person, so we take a guess, mix this with our own perception of how we should look (which itself is influence by society, may it be patriarchal or not...) and hope for this level of seemless integration into society. Since its so hard to really know, we leave ourselves a margin and may overcompensate.

The important part is that our goals are realistic and the disphoria ends once we've reached them. If that's not the case, and someone always want more changes without ever being happy; then we are entering the "michael jackson" territory and hopefully help will be sought for this problem before it gets out of hand.

Quote from: Keira on May 08, 2007, 04:02:54 PM
or who is this super duper TS detector person

I tend to be one of those people.  I had honed my "detector" to a very high level of sensitivity in order to evaluate myself so that I could look for my flaws that really stuck out and correct them.  Most of the time my appearance does not set it off, but every so often it does.  As for reading other people, they can look very female and I will still usually read them.  Voice is probably the number 1 thing that gives people away though, rather than the face.

Quote from: Keira on May 08, 2007, 04:02:54 PM
Amym, I don't take much personally anymore, I'm kind of getting mellow.
But, I do like a good discussion as long as it stays away from personal attacks.

Feminist theory (if I can call it that) is itself very provincial and insular and that's why it is withering in the general population.

A theoritical assault on patriarchy won't matter much if someone can't find a job or a partner because of their appearance

First, who decides that a TS passes enough, that alone has as many meanings and degrees as there are TS's and external point of views on TS's. The implication itself of not passing depends on the macro and micro environment the person lives in; someone living in TS aware SFO may have a difference perspective on this than someone living in India or Cleveland. In some places, people don't blink at a man in a dress with a beard (like in the gay village in Montreal), while in other places, someone who passes almost perfectly risks a beating and possibly death every day. At work it has a different meaning than in a private situation with a possible partner or with friends. It also depends on if you want to stay stealth or not.

So, passing is not simple, not a yes or no proposition in the absolute, but a rich cameleonesque tapestry.

So, should we cue ourselves on the person with the most sensitive TSdar on earth or just go for the average one in our local environment? Of course, there's no real way to find out what's that average is (though we can get an approximation), or who is this super duper TS detector person, so we take a guess, mix this with our own perception of how we should look (which itself is influence by society, may it be patriarchal or not...) and hope for this level of seemless integration into society. Since its so hard to really know, we leave ourselves a margin and may overcompensate.

The important part is that our goals are realistic and the disphoria ends once we've reached them. If that's not the case, and someone always want more changes without ever being happy; then we are entering the "michael jackson" territory and hopefully help will be sought for this problem before it gets out of hand.

I don't really agree with you with regards to feminist theory.  Its alive and well (thankfully the modern ones have dropped the awful opinions of trans people).  It has had a major resurgance with blogging (Pandagon, the Broadsheet, Feministing, I blame the Patriarchy).  Every time it gets dismissed and people write it off, it tends to come back in a better form. 

There is a point where overcompensation takes on an extreme form.  I would say many who go to Doctor O. and the 40k surgery at a young age when they are completely passing (and rather pretty) before hand is a prime example of this extreme form. 

You are right the environment is very key to how one passes.  Living in a major urban area will be much safer than those who live in Rural America.  For the most part transsexuals have not learned the lessons of thier queer brothers and sisters: pick a city that is queer friendly.  Because as much as you pass even visually, there may always be that one person who figures it out.  In other words nobody passes 100% of the time, no matter how much surgery. 

Passing though should not be the most important thing.  Self Acceptance should be. In many cases they are one and the same. Generally speaking this is up to the individual.  Some people have deeper problems outside of just the dysphoria, which make self acceptance very difficult.  Others just are more likely to achieve it no matter what they look like.  There are varying degrees of self acceptance.

Like I said, I am not critical of those who seek out FFS where appearance is a barrier for living a normal life. I will be the first to say, that whether the changes are minor or major, whatever is needed for that person to have a functional life.   I am extremely critical of those who have extremely feminine looks and pass without question, contemplate FFS.  This is where there is a critical lack of perspective and as you say "gets into creepy Michael Jackson" territory.  I only have a theoritical perspective on why this is the case.

Some of us do have issues that will keep us from passing and that needs to be "fixed" outside of SRS and HRT in order to maintain a normal life (I fall into this category myself).  That is not my issue.  My issue is when I see a beautiful trans woman talk about dramatic FFS, it breaks my heart, because it is often for all the wrong reasons.  It is often for at least some of the reasons I stated. 

Quote from: Melissa on May 08, 2007, 04:51:20 PM

Quote from: Keira on May 08, 2007, 04:02:54 PM
or who is this super duper TS detector person

I tend to be one of those people.  I had honed my "detector" to a very high level of sensitivity in order to evaluate myself so that I could look for my flaws that really stuck out and correct them.  Most of the time my appearance does not set it off, but every so often it does.  As for reading other people, they can look very female and I will still usually read them.  Voice is probably the number 1 thing that gives people away though, rather than the face.

This is absolutely 100% correct.  Vocal intonation will give you away more so than anything else. 

Ok, TWC.  I am going to argue out of both sides of my mouth here.

On the one side, there is the simple fact that we all, TG and GG alike are subject to gender stereotypes.  So some of our expectations have been imposed on us from the outside, and those expectations involve placing the value of a woman soly in her physical beauty.  The degree to which we have internalized those stereotypical expectations, controls to some extent how much we can accept ourselves as we are and how much we compare ourselves to some impossible ideal.  Perhaps TGs have internalized those stereotypes more than GGs, but that's not to say that GGs are immune.

On the other side, it is easy for GGs to criticize TGs for being sensitive about their looks.  After all, you have never walked a mile in our shoes.  If I could think of a way to create the equivalent of a Black Like Me experience for GGs, I would.  But how can I make you understand what it is like to not pass?  The best I can say is to try to imagine not passing as your gender for a whole year, and try to imagine how it would make you feel.  If that really happened to you, then you would become conscious of your appearance.  See the thing is, you just are a girl and when people look at you, you don't have to worry that they are judging you.  We do.  Every day.  Day after day.  A life-time's worth of days.  I have no desire for BA or FFS, and I pass, period.  But I spend alot of time looking over my shoulder expecting that I don't.  Until you've had to live like that, it's best not to throw stones.

Quote from: Lisbeth on May 08, 2007, 07:27:52 PM
Ok, TWC.  I am going to argue out of both sides of my mouth here.

On the one side, there is the simple fact that we all, TG and GG alike are subject to gender stereotypes.  So some of our expectations have been imposed on us from the outside, and those expectations involve placing the value of a woman soly in her physical beauty.  The degree to which we have internalized those stereotypical expectations, controls to some extent how much we can accept ourselves as we are and how much we compare ourselves to some impossible ideal.  Perhaps TGs have internalized those stereotypes more than GGs, but that's not to say that GGs are immune.

On the other side, it is easy for GGs to criticize TGs for being sensitive about their looks.  After all, you have never walked a mile in our shoes.  If I could think of a way to create the equivalent of a Black Like Me experience for GGs, I would.  But how can I make you understand what it is like to not pass?  The best I can say is to try to imagine not passing as your gender for a whole year, and try to imagine how it would make you feel.  If that really happened to you, then you would become conscious of your appearance.  See the thing is, you just are a girl and when people look at you, you don't have to worry that they are judging you.  We do.  Every day.  Day after day.  A life-time's worth of days.

Apparently you didn't get the jest of the OP Lisbeth. If you want to call my post criticizing TGs so be it, but you are mistaken.

And just for the record, what makes you think that people do not look at me and judge me harshly? Didn't you just do that?

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 08, 2007, 07:47:06 PM
And just for the record, what makes you think that people do not look at me and judge me harshly? Didn't you just do that?

Exactly, I think that it's just part of being a woman.  You get sized up and scrutinized by everyone.  However, because we *know* that we started at a disadvantage it causes us additional worry.  Here's a thought that comes to my mind "If I was born as male, how can people possibly see me as a GG?"  I have yet to answer that question, but none the less that's how people see me.