I'm in a bit of a different/weird situation where my girlfriend ID's pretty much as a lesbian (ah I hate that word) but doesn't know about me being trans.  It's probably a bit of a mistake on my part, but I'm not in a position where attempting to transition would be easy or particularly fruitful and I'm fortunate that by having her around I can keep a handle on dysphoria.  I don't really see much problem with my situation as the person she knows is exactly the same as the person that she would know if I was actively transitioning except for the physical aspects and the name she refers to me with.  I suppose it's not perfect, but I couldn't make it without her.

She recognises that one day she might fall in love with a bloke and if that happens then it happens but still ID's as gay and is sort of involved in the gay community.  I think that for a lot of people it's just easier to ID as one thing rather than try and explain that you're attracted to one gender 99.9% of the time but for the other 0.1% you're not.  Personally, I was with a CAMAB person (who at the time identified as male) for a while although I've never found men or them attractive at all but still said that I was into women.  That one person didn't change that, I was still attracted to women, I just happened to be with someone who at the time identified as a guy.

I don't know if this is a good time to mention it but I have long identified as a lesbian in a gay man's body.

Quote from: dalebert on July 20, 2012, 09:32:30 AM
I don't know if this is a good time to mention it but I have long identified as a lesbian in a gay man's body.

Really not the right thing to say on a trans website.

Quote from: Nygeel on July 20, 2012, 01:03:48 PM
Really not the right thing to say on a trans website.

Really, for once, I totally agree with you.

I think his comment was intended to be tongue in cheek, lol.

Quote from: Papa Taco on July 20, 2012, 01:13:22 PM
I think his comment was intended to be tongue in cheek, lol.

Yes, of course. Still, I'm sorry. I don't fully understand why it's upsetting but If I offended two different people, then there's probably something to that. I certainly didn't mean to.

Dalebert, I think an emoticon would have helped. 

I didn't have a problem with the post, maybe because I couldn't tell whether it was tongue in cheek. I've read or heard about some unorthodox ways to identify. Sometimes it's hard to tell what's a joke and what isn't!

Quote from: dalebert on July 20, 2012, 01:16:49 PM
Yes, of course. Still, I'm sorry. I don't fully understand why it's upsetting but If I offended two different people, then there's probably something to that. I certainly didn't mean to.

It's because there are people on here who are almost literally lesbian women trapped in gay men's bodies.

Quote from: Nygeel on July 20, 2012, 01:26:26 PM
It's because there are people on here who are almost literally lesbian women trapped in gay men's bodies.

Oh, that's not why I found it offensive, but that's okay.
XD
Still, sort of a good point, perhaps.

Personally I am a majestic pan- and a-sexual unicorn horn (I identify as the horn, not as the unicorn) trapped in a human body.

Personally, I would date a "lesbian" as long as they would date me if i were a cis guy. I'm okay with being an exception as long as my being transexual has nothing to do with it.

Quote from: dalebert on July 20, 2012, 09:32:30 AM
I don't know if this is a good time to mention it but I have long identified as a lesbian in a gay man's body.

I dont understand that to be offensive at all.
serious guys.. 

I suppose the equivalent relationship for me would be with a straight man who loudly and proudly insists that he is straight. It would be a serious slap in the face for me.

But then there's my last relationship. My ex had absolutely no interest in men and was so dogmatic about it that we couldn't get past it. If we HAD been able to work out our differences (I wanted a husband, he wanted a wife ), then things would have been very weird indeed. He identified as straight, period. Because of our twenty-year relationship, he was willing to at least try to make things work, for a little while. Obviously, that didn't last.

I don't know what our staying together would have done to his self-labeling. Actually, he didn't tend to bother labeling himself as straight, probably because straight is a default orientation that usually requires no overt labeling, for most people. So I dunno.

Then again, he is just queer enough that it might have worked for me. I call him a part-time lesbian because he always played lesbian characters in his computer games. With other lesbians, no less. I'm quite sure he isn't trans, but he is...trans-ish in this one way. It's just fantasy.

But if I were to start a new relationship with a straight guy, I don't think I could ever get past the "straight" label unless he changed it. I've worked too hard and gone through too much to be in a relationship where the other guy stubbornly labels himself as straight. And if you think me too dogmatic and inflexible in this respect, then what does that say about the other guy?

Re: Lesbian/FTM relationships

As far as lesbians dating ftms, I think for some it is about the genitals. Not that they don't respect an identity, but they're attracted to certain body parts and not to others. Maybe they wouldn't date a cis guy for the simple reason they don't like what's in his pants. Sexual attraction is that simple for some people.

Quote from: Nygeel on July 20, 2012, 01:26:26 PM
It's because there are people on here who are almost literally lesbian women trapped in gay men's bodies.

That pretty much describes what I was 2 years ago, and the comment didn't bother me. Don't need to be offended on my behalf. Dale was being silly. It's okay to be silly sometimes, nah?


As to the actual topic: people are complicated. Words are also complicated. There are women who identify as lesbian who sometimes sleep with / date men. There are women who identify as lesbian who have a problem with that, and there are those who don't. The word itself has a pretty complex history. And the argument that it includes / should include bisexual women exists. The modern usage of "lesbian" to mean "exclusively attracted to women" is extremely recent. Like a couple of decades old - post it being co-opted for a very different usage in a certain branch of feminism.

The word (outside of meaning a resident of Lesbos) is over 300 years old, and certainly didn't used to include the word "exclusively" in the definition. And still doesn't in some dictionaries. My Canadian Oxford defines the noun form of lesbian as "a woman who is sexually attracted to other women"; it says nothing about attraction, or lack there of, for men (or anyone else). Hell, lesbians who have slept with men are so common that there is a mildly obnoxious term for those who haven't. So there is that.

Personally, I wouldn't have much of a problem being an exception for a girl who ID'd as straight (my equivalent). But then I don't have the genital issue anymore, so I'm not sure it's the same. I don't know how I'd feel about it if I was still pre-op. Maybe not so good.

Quote from: Nygeel on July 20, 2012, 01:26:26 PM
It's because there are people on here who are almost literally lesbian women trapped in gay men's bodies.

No...? Unless there was a sexual orientation change that occurred with transition.

Quote from: Andy8715 on July 18, 2012, 08:35:17 PM
I think the majority (not all!) of lesbians who date FTMs only date us because they think we are "safe" men.  I feel like they basically view us as REALLY butch women.

I've wondered about this. I wouldn't say the majority, but there are definitely some lesbians that have this view. Seems like this kind of dynamic (both people trying to convince themselves that the other is something that they're not) would be damaging over time.

Every person is entitled to their own identity. A lesbian can date a trans guy and still identify as a lesbian. The fact that someone falls in love with another person does not invalidate their own identity or mean that they have to change their own identity just because of who they love. I identify as a gay man and my girlfriend identifies as a lesbian. How is it right to sit there and say, "Oh, well that person CAN'T be a lesbian if they're dating a trans guy." That's just as bad as telling someone they're not really trans because they don't have certain body parts. It's policing. And it's not cool.

I would never tell her that she's not allowed to identify as a lesbian because she's with me. Likewise, she wouldn't tell me I can't identify as a gay man. Who cares how we each identify? We're together and happy and that's what actually matters. Every person is their own person. I wouldn't change my own identity because of someone else or for someone else and I wouldn't want someone else to do that, either.

Quote from: fooledthecrowd on July 27, 2012, 09:36:31 PM
Every person is entitled to their own identity.

Of course they are, but identifying as something does not make you that something.

Quote from: Andy8715 on July 27, 2012, 09:52:55 PM
Of course they are, but identifying as something does not make you that something.

... Nobody can tell you what your own identity is. It's your own. So however it is that you identify is what you are as a person.

Other people can have opinions about your identity or they can try to force what they think your identity should be, but that doesn't change your identity.