It use to be the case, in some places, that one needed to have real-life-experience prior to receiving HRT.  That was then modified to a concurrent experience.

Both were cruel, in my opinion, especially for the transitioning MtF.

The rationale about RLE prior to SRS/GCS is sound - to prevent regrets that lead to suicide. But one size (in terms of policy) may not fit all.

Research indicates (and no, I can't find the link, which is annoying) that there's no proof that RLE before surgery leads to a lower regret rate (the regret rate is incredibly low anyway, and there's not enough info about what issues the regretters have besides gender dysphoria that might be contributing, so it's not even very meaningful statistics).

I think there's a value for some people in taking their time, and settling into role. But not everyone seems to need that.

Years before I transitioned I learned about RLE and that, in my country at the time, one year was required before HRT. It seemed absolutely insane to me to have to be put through that.  I certainly see how waiting a year or so before SRS can be a good thing, but RLE before HRT I don't really get.

The only place I had learned about transitioning was in the news, and all the women they reported on had adapted this stereotypical presentation of femininity in the fashion of yesteryear. I particularly remember one news report about a transitioning woman that was shown in her workplace wearing pink pumps, a tacky mini skirt, a flowery blouse, 5 o'clock shadow, raccoon makeup and a Dolly Parton wig. All the reports I ever saw was of this kind and it seemed to me that this sort of presentation was required for anyone seeking treatment. I found it extremely off putting to have to conform to such a stereotype with no HRT and no chance of passing. I remember wondering if I would be denied treatment should they ever catch me wearing pants. Once I got started I knew that wasn't really the case, but going to my appointments at the GIC  I still had this nagging fear of being rejected for not living up to their standard of what presenting as a woman means.

I don't really get exactly how RLE is defined. In the early stages of my transition I thought I was doing it, but then my one day while I was over for dinner my mom asked if I had been outside as a woman yet. Apparently she too was expecting the flowery dress, pink pumps and matching handbag.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 20, 2012, 12:51:58 PM
I don't really get exactly how RLE is defined.

One of the most personally disturbing definitions was changing my gender legally on documents before hand (this is possible in places). I am one of the incredibly lucky people who have a prior spouse who decides to stay on for the ride. In a country where gay marriage is illegal, RLE would have meant possibly annulling my marriage. Which I would never do.

Ultimately, and I think most of us could testify to this, is that a year or two on full HRT is what should be mandatory, not RLE. The people who fetishize this process (and there are plenty) WILL fall by the wayside as their testosterone and libido goes away. They will quit on their own, while those of us who know who we are are affirmed by the process, happy by the loss of erections and the new ways/sensations of our bodies, will be fully mentally and emotionally ready for the surgical next step.

As ever people do not fit into neat boxes. Some of us transition well and easily, for some it is a time of fear and worry.
I think Karen made a very fine comment in that if an RLE is to be useful it needs to be supported by professionals to help in the steps. People who can help the 'TG' (for the sake of the post) to learn how to present, how to dress, how to do some makeup etc. Not everyone has a (in the case of MtF)  very female figure and need some advice in 'fitting in'. They need their confidence supported and lessons to how to handle themselves in social situations.  How to do simple things like how to use a rest room (OK bizarre but true for some).  How to stand up for yourself as a woman.

These are life lessons that both males and females learn as they grow. In the case of adults transitioning these lessons may not be obvious, but they make a difference between acceptance and rejection.

I don't think there should be any 'exam' as to whether you succeed or not but a transition RLE can have a lot of benefit.

JMO

Cindy

I think if you have the money to pay for SRS, sign the consent forms and have at it. You should know what you're getting into, and if not, then the blame falls on you for being so irresponsible.

Quote from: SilentOwls on September 01, 2012, 07:43:09 AM
I think if you have the money to pay for SRS, sign the consent forms and have at it. You should know what you're getting into, and if not, then the blame falls on you for being so irresponsible.

I agree with you there, but you still must have safe guards built in also to the process. Seeing two psychologists also is a good idea to see if your mentally prepared and fully understand what you are doing. A two year mandatory of HRT is also good and doing away with RLE requirements. It is true that most who try to transition as a fetish will drop out of HRT before the two yr requirement. The question i ask is why should people be required to wear makeup, wear a dress or skirt to get SRS when alot of cis females already dress Androgynous.

Most people who do have postup regret always try to blame their Therapist or Doctor. They should take responsibilities for their own actions. That is what is wrong with the system.

I think several professional had made what may be necessary for some mandatory for all. I wonder why? perhaps a good way to secure some business.

IMAO

RLE before HRT is harmful and cruel.
RLE before SRS may be a good thing for a selected ones.
A endo to monitor HRT is totally unnecessary, any GP can do the monitoring
A GP or endo may require a letter of concurrence from a psychologies, psychiatrist, or other GP who knows the patient well, otherwise, if the GP or endo knows the patient well, then just go ahead with the HRT

Now, most people would agree with my requirements as stated above, then why are they not in place ?


Perhaps a great deal of gate-keeping has to do with money, of course under the guise of "caring"

Quote from: peky on September 03, 2012, 02:47:56 PM
I think several professional had made what may be necessary for some mandatory for all. I wonder why? perhaps a good way to secure some business.

IMAO

RLE before HRT is harmful and cruel.
RLE before SRS may be a good thing for a selected ones.
A endo to monitor HRT is totally unnecessary, any GP can do the monitoring
A GP or endo may require a letter of concurrence from a psychologies, psychiatrist, or other GP who knows the patient well, otherwise, if the GP or endo knows the patient well, then just go ahead with the HRT

Now, most people would agree with my requirements as stated above, then why are they not in place ?


Perhaps a great deal of gate-keeping has to do with money, of course under the guise of "caring"

Medical Society is all about Money............Money greatly figures into their decisions

IMO, I think the medical community sees TG folk as cash cows.

Nothing more, nothing less.

RLE is silly,  some of us want to keep our jobs a little longer.  Not everyone is prada and lipstick.

I didn't have to do any of that before hormones and by the time I am ready for SRS I will definitely be full time but to mandate someone to be your personal monkey for a year p*sses me off.  And if for some reason you don't bow to their every whim they control whether you are a girl or not in the eyes of society is also another load of BS.

My doctor says not everyone is self medicating like you are, and those of us that are tend to suffer more in front of a psychologist who wants to break apart every aspect of our existence and pass judgement that is most likely off base.

Is a a year + of painful electrolysis not enough?  I sure as heck am not doing it because I enjoy pain.

Isn't the 26 years of my life, most of it knowing how wrong my life was not enough?

Isn't the fact that sometimes I cry sometimes fearing being forced to be a guy again enough?

Isn't the fact that I finally love my life not enough?  My happiness is not enough?

Some people need guidance, someone to talk to.  Someone to help push them, but even those people deserve better than dog is trained. 

Sorry for the anger, I can be a bit of a firecracker when my well being is threatened.  Where I go to at Callen Lorde I shouldn't have to worry about getting a bad therapist. They are all kind and very easy to pass through.
It is easy to spot someone who is confused, and not resolute in their decision.  I was very resolute and significantly educated on the topic, I came in ready to begin and I began a month later on HRT.

I mean that was my primary reason for being on this forum, I don't understand everything about hormones and SRS and not even a doctor knows everything.  This community shows the results and points of view of people with body types, and genes very different from my own.  As such I tend to ask stupid questions.

Yesterday I could not sleep thinking about this. Let's face it: I don't have an girly, androgynous or barely passable face. For me, this is like torture.



Basically I can't do it while living with my family:

- With my parents at home: Strictly forbidden (not that I want to be seen like that)

- What if they went on holidays?: Risk of being spotted by one of the 66 neighboring homes in the building, and gossiping spreads quickly. It is impossible to go down twelve floors without being stopped and spending one minute in a lift with somebody that can easily recognise you.

- At work? Impossible, I don't work in a cubicle.



But still thinking about how could I do it. The face is a disaster, but maybe the body...

- Skinny form fitting unisex pants? they could work, but the tucking is going to be quite difficult or impossible.
- Strong thick and long neck? Maybe a wig that could go down to the shoulders...
- gigantic adam's apple? To big for a make up trick, I would need a turtleneck sweater.
- torso? Luckily I have a decent figure, but a corset could help.
- Beard? Already on laser. Too bad about the burns still being visible, but I can hide them with concealer.
- Skin? Gigantic pores. I could use a professional cleaning and a chemical peeling, but not so sure on how can it help.
- EyeBrows and brow bossing? I'll need my eyebrows to be done, I have the courage to enter a saloon.
- Hair? Wig is mandatory
- Walking gait? Absolutely the worst. It is like having no balance and I walk like a zombie. If I forget about keeping the posture I will go back to walking like a hunchback again. Ca a corset help here?

I hope it can be avoided, and the maximum I could do is just a few days if I were to go to a place nobody knows me and I would never have go back to.





Mmmm, I could also put a brown paper bag with two holes over my head, that should fix all the problems.

I am still highly against RLE for unpassable transfolks who do not feel the need to do it. Sure, if that's what you want, by all means and good luck. But as any requirement for anything else, well, that's BS. Most therapists can understand that at this point.

As for the rest, eyebrows you can do yourself over a few sessions and with some online help... no need to chuck money at that IMHO. Remember to go slow, as some hairs never grow back up there once plucked.... take off a bit, wait a day, a bit more... etc. NOthing is worse on cisfemales or us than overplucked eyebrows! Adam's apple... practice pulling it up into the top part of your throat, like when you swallow. That's actually the start of developing a female voice anyway, but it makes mine vanish entirely. Unless yours is the size of a tennis ball, yours should too...a lot of the other stuff are NOT things ALL natal women have. Some have big pores, some have bad posture, etc. If your face really is unpassable at this stage (and it might well be; some people are just that way sadly), I'd just shoot for androgynous stuff, realize a lot of women dress that way too, and F the RLE. No one in your building or parents could complain about androgyny, and they'll get used to you like that slowly...and then you can push the envelope a bit more.... I did that with my old conservative parents, and people can think I'm a girl on the street and I go home and my parents still see me as I always was. Kinda like boiling a frog in a pot...throw it in and the frog freaks out; heat it slowly and the frog don't know what hit it.

Obviously I don't want to go though it, but my options are limited. There are no gender therapists and the only road to HRT is going through the government's social security's GID unit. I can't go to another therapist because to put it simply, they are the only ones that can allow the treatment to start here. So bracing myself for the worst.


And BTW, how do they check you are doing the RLE properly? They put hidden spies with a camera? Somebody follows you with a pair of binoculars? Or do they just ask you to tell the history and try to find if you are lying?

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 07:53:45 AM
Mmmm, I could also put a brown paper bag with two holes over my head, that should fix all the problems.

Make that a pink paper bag and you're golden.

I agree with GendrKweer's advice, it's all good. Going about it one small step at a time is a great way to do it. I did it myself and was amazed by how people that saw me all the time really didn't notice anything.

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 08:41:01 AM
And BTW, how do they check you are doing the RLE properly? They put hidden spies with a camera? Somebody follows you with a pair of binoculars? Or do they just ask you to tell the history and try to find if you are lying?

I was wondering about this myself but the fact of the matter is that they don't. At first I thought I had to come dressed as a middle aged upper middle class lady to get treatment, but it's not really like that. You can if you want to, and some do I guess, but you don't have to. You just need to figure out what works for you and what makes you feel comfortable.

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 07:53:45 AM
Yesterday I could not sleep thinking about this. Let's face it: I don't have an girly, androgynous or barely passable face. For me, this is like torture.



Basically I can't do it while living with my family:

- With my parents at home: Strictly forbidden (not that I want to be seen like that)

- What if they went on holidays?: Risk of being spotted by one of the 66 neighboring homes in the building, and gossiping spreads quickly. It is impossible to go down twelve floors without being stopped and spending one minute in a lift with somebody that can easily recognise you.

- At work? Impossible, I don't work in a cubicle.

So... when do you plan to transition? Will you never see your family again? Will you move to a house with no one near it? Will you give up work forever?

At some point we are all caught between being male and being female. It is a halfway existence that we cannot avoid because we cannot go from 100% male to 100% female, so unless you plan to transition on a desert island with yourself as the only person on it, how will you deal with OTHER people in the halfway stage?

I am there now - neither one nor the other but I had reached the point where the transition was so important to me that I was willing to tell anyone, live with anyone's derision, take any risk as long as I could keep transitioning. Until you reach that point of desperation it is very hard to transition. The very act forces a "coming out" and you had better be ready for it because there is no hiding.

Quote from: Apples Mk.II on September 10, 2012, 08:41:01 AM
And BTW, how do they check you are doing the RLE properly? They put hidden spies with a camera? Somebody follows you with a pair of binoculars? Or do they just ask you to tell the history and try to find if you are lying?

In the UK they simply require a paper trail. A change of name witnessed by someone like a magistrate or solicitor, updated records with the tax authorities, payslips in your female name (explain that to your employer while trying to stay in male mode), bank statements in your female name, memberships of clubs or societies in your female name, and so on.

Quote from: brc on September 10, 2012, 08:49:06 AM
So... when do you plan to transition? Will you never see your family again? Will you move to a house with no one near it? Will you give up work forever?

No need to be harsh. I talked with my family abut what I was going to do, and what they offered me was: "We don't want anybody here to know. You can stay here hidden or leave, but I don't want to see you in a "dress or a mini-skirt" and with long hair. You will cause a depression to your mother and she will be interned into a psychiatric ward, and we will be the shame of the neighbourhood until we die. Now is a good time for you to start looking for your own home".

There you have your answer, are you happy now? If I have to do RLE, I need to find my own place to live, and it is not particularly easy with the current economic situation and my economic possibilities. On the job, I will disclose it when the bosses allow it. If not, I will keep it hidden. What I CAN'T DO is to go against the will of the persons that allow me to stay at their home because it is impossible for me to live on my own, and they can't financially support me thanks to the crisis.

If I had my own place to live, it would be a whole different story. But my only options for now are:

- Transition at home "hidden", with androgyne as the maximum I can opt to.

- Hope the renting prizes bubble breaks down so I can afford a place where I can be myself without the family restraints, or be extremely lucky to find something in one of the most expensive places of the country.

In fact, I would have come out much earlier if I had not been practically controlled by my family and chastised for the slightest un-manly gender slip.

Quote from: brc on September 10, 2012, 09:05:44 AM
In the UK they simply require a paper trail. A change of name witnessed by someone like a magistrate or solicitor, updated records with the tax authorities, payslips in your female name (explain that to your employer while trying to stay in male mode), bank statements in your female name, memberships of clubs or societies in your female name, and so on.

Here that is not legally possible. In fact, you are not even allowed to have a neutral name. If the name is not related to the gender, you can't change it.

When I got sober, I started getting honest and accepting of my self. This led to a very gradual physical transition over the coure of 1 year. Now, keep in mind, I wasn't aware of what was happening. My denial about my own femininity was very strong, I couldn't see who I was. I just allowed myself to do whatever made me comfortable, because thats what recovery from alcohol means for me (I drank to deal with all things, but one big one was my gender identity). After a year I looked in the mirror and got scared. I was presenting female without categorizing it that way. I had long manicured nails, all womens clothing, long hair, makeup...This is by no means any one else's presentation, but it Is mine. That being said, I identified as male at the time, so one could also call this presentation a RLE as Male, as well. WHAT IS RLE?? I lived my life as a male who worked out constantly to masculinize himself to try and feel better but only ever felt worse. I lived my life as a male who presented fully female. Are either experiences pure experiences of gender in society? Or are each very complex unique experiences of being a trans person who is confused, and sick with self-hate? The world saw me as male, maybe thats what is important.

After I looked at my self and got scared of what I saw (I saw a girl, and still believed that I was supposed to be a boy), the illusion of my male self shattered. I was finally able to see myself. All my lifelong fear and denial broke away and left me. In that moment, I saw my transgender identity, and I finally accepted her, and loved her. So in my experience, I had to bring my physical expression of gender further away from male in order to see what was inside. My denial was too thick. But this was personal, it was never mandated. My experience was entirely different than any requisite RLE bull->-bleeped-<-. OF COURSE it makes sense to live as the gender you identify as, but to suggest that there is any mapped way to do that is ludicrous. Yes, our society handles people differently based on their gender, or their gender presentation, but to assume that they deal with trans people the same way they deal with cis people is absurd. After I ID'd as trans, I went full force as feminine as I wanted. I had denied my femininity my whole life, so it was great fun and liberating for a bit. This was PRE-hormones, mind you, so NO I did not pass. I have been living Full-Time with a male name, which I have chosen to keep, for 5 months. Only 3 weeks of which are on Hormones. Society has handled me in its own little way. I pass at a passing glance, but no scrutinizing eye genders me female. I know now more than ever that this is my truth and my gender and I am free, but my RLE was personal and taught me who I was because I lived MY truth. If someone told me to live out their truth, some standardized RLE or whatever, I would diminish.

We are floral and complex. The comment posted prior about our lives pre-transition being RLE for our previous genders is right on the money. If ever I have the suspicion of a doubt, I recall the 23 years I spent struggling to be male, and failing. This isn't hard, its easy. I am fortunate to have a TG Clinic that operates on Informed Consent. The horror stories I hear on here about you girls' RLE, and sometimes being DENIED HRT after great time working this cistem makes me sick. I am so sorry.

We are real. When the cis world tells us who we are, what we are, and how we will live our lives - they are denying our reality. They are claiming ownership over our bodies and our identities, and veiling this occupation of Transgender Reality as Medical Care. This is not about treating us well, it is about controlling us. As long as the cis world mandates our transitions, they control us. How dare a cis person tell you if you are truly trans?

This whole business makes me ill, and its not to say that we don't work it and find great solace with our doctors and our treatment. I know we all see this differently. I don't think our doctors are evil. I believe the system in place is inadequate and sick.