So three days ago i was prescribed estradiol and spironolactone, and I'm wondering what it's the general time line for any changes that might happen. Also basically asking what y'alls experiences are with that combo. And i know that everyone grows differently just need to figure out what could possibly happen. Thanks for the info!

Assuming your dose is well adjusted (mine is presently too low, so the first seven months of my HRT will have seen only minor changes - looking forward to seeing the endo in September), the very general timeline you can expect is more or less this.

1 week: Very slight changes visible, but so slight you're possibly imagining them. Psychological changes kick in.
1 month: Skin softens and becomes less oily. Slight changes in fat redistribution.
6 months: People who haven't seen you for a while, or a picture comparison, can tell you that you've changed
1 year: Change is becoming really obvious. Unless you're making intricate efforts to hide your transition, someone will most likely notice.
2 years: Super mega obvious. The majority of changes should be done or close to done at this point.

There's also this that you might like.

I started experiencing changes the first week, and at 1 year I am still experiencing lots of changes. They've been drastic.

Week 1 My libido changed (got stronger actually) and noticed male scent more, and my emotional state changed. I got more tempermental and emotional. I was also more calm and at ease with myself.

At 1 month my sex drive completely changed. Erections didn't happen at will anymore. Breast growth started it's very early stages (noticed tiny traffic cone shaped things along with buds that were very painful to the touch). A slight change was going on in my face but I couldn't tell what. Also, my strength loss was VERY noticeable, however I didn't lose any muscle mass.

At 2 months my face rounded a tiny bit and my skin texture changed. My scalp hair grew quicker. My muscles were melting away. Finasteride was making me shed, though.

At 3 months my skin was getting a bit lighter in color. Breasts were becoming noticeable thru my shirt. My libido changed from visual stimulation to emotional stimulation.

At 4-6 months body hair was falling off my body. My face started changing a lil more rapidly. The jaw was becoming weaker in appearance. My skin was VERY dry during the winter. I got maamed for the first time in month 5. My boss started looking at me differently and giving me crap about EVERYTHING he wouldn't give others. One company meeting we had, before going in, I looked in the mirror and was pretty shocked by how feminine my face looked that day. He stared daggers at me the whole time and never acted the same towards me since. Shedding from Finasteride stopped.

At month 7 the changes were very obvious. I was a full A cup and it was getting difficult to tell if I was a boy or girl. People either refrained from gendering me until they got my name, or switched between calling me a he or a she. I went part time, outside of work I was female. I noticed, also, that I had shrank in size about 1.5 inches.

At month 8 it got to the point where people were seeing me as a girl more than a boy. New clients even referred to me as a girl until I told them my name. My boss fired me this month too. I went full time after being seen as a girl even though I had facial hair and was talking in what I thought was my male voice (I think the practice started setting in and my girl voice was harder to stop). I went full time at this point, except one time I went out with friends that didn't know... and the waitress was shocked when my friends were referring to me as a boy. It took some convincing to get her to see that I was "male". I told all of my friends after this point and NONE of them were shocked. When buying girl shoes I noticed that my feet shrank from a size 10.5 wide in girls to a size 8 wide. My scalp hair felt MUCH thicker.

At month 9- 11 my face feminized further. I could see the fat in my cheeks collecting and I started getting more comfy with seeing myself as a female. Also, my body hair was growing in A LOT slower. I'm currrently only needing to shave my legs and torso once a week when I needed to do it every day. Also, I grew into a small B cup bra. My muscles diminished to the point where I was okay wearing more revealing clothes on my upper body. My chest / shoulder region is now feminine in appearance. Around month 11 I needed to get new shoes because I no longer could fit into an 8 wide, I needed an 8. My roommate pointed out that I looked shorter (and he met me at around the 8 month mark, when I had already shrank 1.5 inches). We measured, and it turns out I lost an additional inch. I am now down to 5'3".

At month 12 (now) the changes seem to be slowing down like they were in months 4-6. My face is still shaping more and more each week. Otherwise my breast buds don't hurt anymore (although they have been off and on throughout the whole process after month 3 or so).

If you want to see visual effects, I have a video of my transition on YouTube. Just click the lil icon under my avatar and click on "My Transition" video

I just wanted to add something. The table above says that scalp hair regrowth is a no. But I have experienced alot of regrowth since I started HRT.

Quote from: Carolina1983 on August 22, 2012, 02:06:00 PM
I just wanted to add something. The table above says that scalp hair regrowth is a no. But I have experienced alot of regrowth since I started HRT.

I wasn't missing any before I started except at the corners, but some has regrown there and my density is much higher.

Shrinking... That's more than awesome. It's anoying how the vast majority of girls are shorter. ._. I'll be hoping hard for that to happen to me. Not sure how it could happen (and how it could happen so quickly!) but I'd looove it. But yeah, you're quite a puzzling case. You're almost 30 yet get such incredible changes some people younger never get. I know my oestrogen levels are still within male range (what's up with that? Triple dose please ._.) but I'm jealous, with me having only slight changes...

And if my feet shrink too... Hah, that would be awesome, I'd actually wear average or even below average shoes for my size (currently wearing 8-9 with feet too high and wide to fit anything but skater shoes the last time I tried).

By shedding... Do you mean you were losing your scalp hair? Isn't that bad?

And uhm, what do you think about finasteride? I'm not sure, but it looks like the people who's had unexpected changes (shrinking, smaller feet...) were on it. I've been considering taking it, but I think I'd need solid arguments for that. My endo never discusses anything with me... All meetings take about 15 minutes max and he answers questions quickly and evasively.

So, uhm, yeah. As someone on Estrogel (17β-estradiol [<-Yeah, having fun with the symbol being on my keyboard] transdermal gel) and Androcur (cyproterone acetate), do you think I could benefit from finasteride? Do you have tips for me when presenting the idea to my doctor?

Carolina1983: Yeah, recession of balding and such seems to be one of those HRT effects that aren't documented. I guess it's rarely anything more than minor growth.

I'm not allowed to answer. Sorry.

Hi,

I am on Day three and no changes, yet!

I guess it is way too early!! :-)

@Alainaluvsu
Congrats!!! What is your secret?? :-)

Quote from: A on August 22, 2012, 03:00:48 PM
Shrinking... That's more than awesome. It's anoying how the vast majority of girls are shorter. ._. I'll be hoping hard for that to happen to me. Not sure how it could happen (and how it could happen so quickly!) but I'd looove it. But yeah, you're quite a puzzling case. You're almost 30 yet get such incredible changes some people younger never get. I know my oestrogen levels are still within male range (what's up with that? Triple dose please ._.) but I'm jealous, with me having only slight changes...

And if my feet shrink too... Hah, that would be awesome, I'd actually wear average or even below average shoes for my size (currently wearing 8-9 with feet too high and wide to fit anything but skater shoes the last time I tried).

By shedding... Do you mean you were losing your scalp hair? Isn't that bad?

And uhm, what do you think about finasteride? I'm not sure, but it looks like the people who's had unexpected changes (shrinking, smaller feet...) were on it. I've been considering taking it, but I think I'd need solid arguments for that. My endo never discusses anything with me... All meetings take about 15 minutes max and he answers questions quickly and evasively.

So, uhm, yeah. As someone on Estrogel (17β-estradiol [<-Yeah, having fun with the symbol being on my keyboard] transdermal gel) and Androcur (cyproterone acetate), do you think I could benefit from finasteride? Do you have tips for me when presenting the idea to my doctor?

As far as height and foot size difference, it's not a new phenomenon. Not too sure if it's common. I know for a fact I did though, as I used to be taller than my sister and now I'm shorter. If I had to guess on why it happens, the fat in the feet disappear. I know I'm getting more sores on the bottom of my feet from standing all day than I ever have before and I think that's because I don't have any cushion there. Plus I read that ligaments inbetween the bones may shrink as well as muscles in the back that makes men have their posture disappear.

Yes, I was losing scalp hair, mostly in the back (underneath the crown). Not in a MPB type way though. I've read about it and it's common on Finasteride. Up to 10% of your hair sheds initially and many say that's how you know it'll work for you. No idea why it does that though.

As far as Finasteride, I've never had any unwanted side effects from it. I  got on it not because I was getting MPB, but because I noticed quite a bit of hair shedding daily, and plus I've read that any DHT in your blood will interfere with estrogen in a big way.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_ptMN5v7JK8C&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=dht+blocks+estradiol&source=bl&ots=EmWcNei-mc&sig=N28CzryenF39B6AlhZLWMEpyoBw&sa=X&ei=uWA1UJTDIK-02AWdt4GgBQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=dht%20blocks%20estradiol&f=false

"Because DHT blocks binding of estradiol to SHBG, its presence completely negates the effects of estradiol. In fact, the use of DHT in clinical trials was found to lower levels of both estradiol and SHBG"

This citation may be enough to help you with your endo, or at least get a DHT test. I personally told my doctor what I was self dosing on and she went along with what I was doing... seeing as my blood tests were in range of where I needed them to be at the time.

Quote from: NotThereYet on August 22, 2012, 04:34:24 PM
@Alainaluvsu
Congrats!!! What is your secret?? :-)

Girl.... I wish I knew. I eat a bunch of protein, maybe that helps? I have also avoided phytoestrogens such as soy because I've read they compete with / interfere with the blocking of estradiol to estrogen receptors.

Quote from: A on August 22, 2012, 07:45:51 AM
Assuming your dose is well adjusted (mine is presently too low, so the first seven months of my HRT will have seen only minor changes - looking forward to seeing the endo in September), the very general timeline you can expect is more or less this.

1 week: Very slight changes visible, but so slight you're possibly imagining them. Psychological changes kick in.
1 month: Skin softens and becomes less oily. Slight changes in fat redistribution.
6 months: People who haven't seen you for a while, or a picture comparison, can tell you that you've changed
1 year: Change is becoming really obvious. Unless you're making intricate efforts to hide your transition, someone will most likely notice.
2 years: Super mega obvious. The majority of changes should be done or close to done at this point.

There's also this that you might like.

I'm hoping that my endo will raise my dosages cause even though I'm only three days in, the amount seems low... And i honestly don't think i will transform that quick on the low dosages... But here's to hoping!

Quote from: TessaM on August 22, 2012, 06:46:01 PM
Is that true about the soy? Holy ->-bleeped-<- I drink so much of that crap im going to stop now lol!

I do too. Don't. It only interferes when the estrogen is higher than recommended (for natal women), which can cause breast cancer amongst other things. That's why asian women have lower rates of breast cancer. When TS, in the first few months of HRT, get rrrrreally high levels of E, docs might tell them that one of the possible consequences of this, IN THE LONG RUN, is breast cancer. Drinking soy can do more good than harm, actually.

Here's the stuff:

'It is thought that the weaker phytoestrogens can compete for estrogen receptors with the more potent endogenous estrogens thereby decreasing the overall estrogenic activity when it is deemed to be too high.'

'Phytoestrogens compete with estradiol for estrogen binding sites in the reproductive tracts of animals in vivo and in human breast cancer cells in vitro'

'Soybeans, which also contain estrogenic isoflavones, have been implicated as being responsible for the low incidence of breast and other female reproductive cancers in Japanese woman who consume large amounts of soybean products. 183 Studies show a correlation between high levels of urninary lignans and isoflavonoid phytoestrogens, specifically genistein, and a low incidence of hormone-dependent cancers such as breast and prostate cancer.'

More here: https://www.planetherbs.com/theory/phytoestrogens.html

Still, it's true what Alaina says, but I don't think drinking, say, a glass per day is going to be that bad. At least judging by the looks of you anyway...

Soy does contain phyto-oestrogens, but I don't know about the amount. I'd say it's probably not enough to be a serious issue... Well, I hope I'm right, because as a lactose intolerant who hates the taste of milk, things are bad for me if I have to stop soy milk. I'd ask my endo about it, but he's always just smiling and saying "no issue", "it's normal" and "don't worry, I have experience" to most things. If there's an issue, he won't know/tell. ^^'

And thanks a lot for all that, Alaina. I knew about shoe size being rather common, but height changes, especially that much, are new to me. ^.^

I'll talk about finasteride to the endo. Too bad I've already done my blood tests for the appointment (besides, I checked and DHT isn't even something he can check on his sheet! xD) I wonder if he'd have the time to send me a prescription and receive the results if I called tomorrow to ask for it. My appointment should be in the second half of September.

Do you happen to know how long that test takes to analyse?

By the way, do you mind sharing about what ranges of estradiol your doctor and you are aiming for? I know mine are insufficient, at 184 pmol/L, still in the male range, but the female norm being written as:

Follicular (110 - 1470)
Luteal (180 - 550)
Menopause (18 - 110)

I'm pretty confused as to what to consider good. After all, in the letter accompanying the results, the endo said values were normal considering the treatment. I hardly see how that's normal. ^^'

And that makes me think that I should really get tips for eating. Cooking takes me an average of 4 times the normal time (Come home at 17:00, hurry to make supper and start eating at 21:00? Heck yeah! Try fitting the the one-hour dishes and the one-hour shower - yes, I'm uncontrollably slow with everything - in there and go to bed by 22:00... Even if I don't relax at all, which I very much need, it's physically impossible. >.>) on top of my global energy being pretty low, so I don't eat very well since I cook once a month at best, even though I much prefer healthy food in all respects. ._.

Elena G: Uhm, I used to believe that too, but more recent studies tend to present isoflavones much less favourably. I have no details though. Looks like we still don't know all the good and the bad about soy products.

A: I've never had a DHT test, so I don't know. I've read they're quite expensive... don't remember the price but I remember looking it up and saying "Oh wow I'm glad my endo never ordered the test!" ... she is as concerned with my finances as I am!

But I'm sure there's a checkbox for other on that sheet... a doctor should be able to order any lab they want I would think!

Ah, uhm, well... I don't live in the Unfriendly States of America (USA), so I don't have to pay for blood test. I guess I at least have this advantage over you.

Do you know your estradiol levels, or do you not do any blood tests at all?

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on August 22, 2012, 05:51:19 PM

"Because DHT blocks binding of estradiol to SHBG, its presence completely negates the effects of estradiol. In fact, the use of DHT in clinical trials was found to lower levels of both estradiol and SHBG"

This citation may be enough to help you with your endo, or at least get a DHT test. I personally told my doctor what I was self dosing on and she went along with what I was doing... seeing as my blood tests were in range of where I needed them to be at the time.

Thank you... good article. I have been looking for info on T.
So if a low T male took E in post menopausal doses, ANY DHT high or low would cancel out the E? Or at least bring E levels back to normal male levels of 13 to 54 pg/ml.

There must be another component because males can have elevated E level as i had due to drinking.

Quote from: A on August 23, 2012, 05:32:41 AM
Ah, uhm, well... I don't live in the Unfriendly States of America (USA), so I don't have to pay for blood test. I guess I at least have this advantage over you.

Do you know your estradiol levels, or do you not do any blood tests at all?

I do know! I get them taken every couple of months now. Although we use a different unit of measure than you do...

2 months in (I self medicated for 2 months): 175 pg/dl
5 months in: 722 pg/dl (very high)
8 months in: 88 pg/dl (very low)
10 months in: 112 pg/dl (still low)

My doctor wants them in the 150-250 range.

Quote from: TessaM on August 23, 2012, 06:47:45 AM
K so when im done this carton of soy milk im going to drink it less often, thats for sure. Just to be safe, especially considering how much I love to eat soy beans as well!!!
And I just realized...you Americans have to pay for your bloodwork? CRAP! Im pretty sure mine is free or heavily subsidized. Mind if I ask you guys what such tests cost?

Yeah, it's ridiculous. It's different everywhere you go... but each test is around $300. However I get them taken at a hospital and when you do that (at least in Louisiana), you are only obligated to pay $10 a month for every test you take until it's paid off.

Quote from: joann on August 23, 2012, 06:53:44 AM
Thank you... good article. I have been looking for info on T.
So if a low T male took E in post menopausal doses, ANY DHT high or low would cancel out the E? Or at least bring E levels back to normal male levels of 13 to 54 pg/ml.

There must be another component because males can have elevated E level as i had due to drinking.

Age is a major factor in decreasing T levels in men, also. Natural production of testosterone in the blood peaks at age 30, and declines a couple percent each year (on average). Of course, the less T you have, the less that can be converted to DHT.

"By the way, do you mind sharing about what ranges of estradiol your doctor and you are aiming for? I know mine are insufficient, at 184 pmol/L, still in the male range, but the female norm being written as:

Follicular (110 - 1470)
Luteal (180 - 550)
Menopause (18 - 110)

I'm pretty confused as to what to consider good. After all, in the letter accompanying the results, the endo said values were normal considering the treatment. I hardly see how that's normal".

Charing Cross gender clinic London has a 400 pmol/L recommendation (post-op), I'm sure that has not changed.
On 'normal' menopause E2 (oral, and post-op) I wound up with about 250 pmol/L which is pretty much target when reading the by-pack info... i.e. 200 pmol/L.

Whilst pre-op and on about 3x menopause maintenance E2, and no T blockers as T was already low at 0.7 nmol/L, for female range: 0.7 - 2.8 nmol/L (male range 8.0 - 18.7 nmol/L) my Estradiol level was then 734 pmol/L.

This may put some perspective, bearing in mind as ALWAYS, we do differ and age makes ALWAYS a difference too.

I have NOT given any doses, so let's hope we don't get into issues over my answering your question.

Axélle

Nope, we don't. Strangely enough, medication doses are entirely forbidden, but there's zero issue with blood levels.

Thanks to you two for your numbers.

Axélle: Ehm, correct me if I'm wrong... Are you saying that your doctor is mimicking menopause with your doses? This is crazy... x_x He should know that menopause, although normal, is when part of a woman's body fails = not something to wish for...

Alaina, I've converted your values in your post.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on August 23, 2012, 10:21:42 AM
2 months in (I self medicated for 2 months): 642.425 pmol/L
5 months in: 2650.462 pmol/L (very high)
8 months in: 323.048 pmol/L (very low)
10 months in: 411.152 pmol/L (still low)

My doctor wants them in the 550.65-917.75 range.

Mhm... Looks like you're aiming at follicular values, past the luteal area. Yup, 100 % confirmed, my levels are crazy low at 184 pmol/L = 50.123 pg/mL.

...But I think you might have made a mistake with your unit. Because this converter says the conventional unit for estradiol is pg/mL. And well, if I make the obvious conversion... Your target range would be 55 065 - 91 775 pmol/L, which is roughly 100 x the values on my sheet. xD

And uhm. THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS?! This is crazy. Gosh, how are Americans even alive? I mean, if a basic thing like blood tests are at such a crazy price, doesn't it mean health care is exclusively for the rich? Or rather, the extremely rich? (My revenue: a little less than 880 $ per month. Ask me to do four blood tests a year and you're taking over 10 % of my annual revenue away. x_x)