Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 08:26:13 PM
At the job I mentioned where I used to work, where a customer who knew me when I was open about being trans came in and told all of my coworkers that I was really just a man pretending to be a woman...

There was this guy and he confronted me point blank and told me it was entirely obvious by the size of my chest, shoulders, hips, hands and feet that I was nothing more than a "->-bleeped-<-got" and my coworkers and the bar tender (a woman) just stood around and beamed like, "How you like them apples "->-bleeped-<-"?  I had a lot of experiences like that in the two years I worked at that place.  I only worked there because I didn't believe any other place would hire me.  After work when I got in my car for the long drive home I would fasten my seat belt and throw up because of all the stress.  I kept empty cups in my car for that express purpose.

It's hard not to believe what people say when people are gossiping and talking about you behind your back.  Reality becomes what you fear it is instead of what it is.  Sometimes reality needs to be replaced by taking yourself out of a situation and finding a new one where the rumors haven't circulated.

I adore you, Noey. I've been reading your posts as they reveal a long life story of struggle, that which I probably wouldn't ever be able to face myself. But there's too that other side of the coin which inspires me to, at least, be as strong and successful as you've been, regardless of what you think you've accomplished in life.

Living in the US is something that bugs me, as it's such a polarized place it's scary. You can be in SF, when everyone will treat you nicely if you are LGBT (or some people, at the very least), and then you can be in the desert of middle America, when you can get treated pretty much like you and many others have been. Maybe I've been spoiled, even though I live in no heaven and still have to pass through many situations, yet. But I didn't mean to make it look like that, it was more around the idea that GGs, for me, seem much more difficult to be misgendered. And needless to say, you have lived in one of those places I would wipe out from the earth forever, full of worthless scumbags with their brains fried by this morally corrupt society. I can't deny the reality of what you have been going through, but I only hope to show you that what you have suffered, even if traumatic, is nothing worth of stressing about now that you're an assertive, intelligent and well-spoken adult woman.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 07:51:45 PM
But people aren't always talking when they are being gendered and not all women have female sounding voices.

Thanks Berkley, you make me blush.

Does my upper body look massive in that pic?  It kinda does huh?
<----------------------------

No, you look fine, probably better than me actually. Once I got mis-gendered from behind at school, "Sir, your backpack is open." I turned around and looked at her like she was absolutely nuts. She said sheepishly, "Oh I am sorry, ma'am." My voice is androgynous at best but a natural looking feminine face trumps everything.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 25, 2012, 09:15:24 PM
No, you look fine, probably better than me actually. Once I got mis-gendered from behind at school, "Sir, your backpack is open." I turned around and looked at her like she was absolutely nuts. She said sheepishly, "Oh I am sorry, ma'am." My voice is androgynous at best but a natural looking feminine face trumps everything.

Well... not EVERYTHING. A completely male voice ruins that female face every time. I could demonstrate if we ever get together and I pull out my Barry White impression while checking out at a grocery store

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on August 25, 2012, 10:23:11 PM
Well... not EVERYTHING. A completely male voice ruins that female face every time. I could demonstrate if we ever get together and I pull out my Barry White impression while checking out at a grocery store

I have to agree. My voice is not that great but it has always been in the tenor/alto range.

hehe.  Alainaluvsu, you do your Barry White and I'll do my Darth Vader.   And we can both get throat spray afterwards.

Not to totally derail, but I find it really interesting to read the ladies take on this. I'll never be a point where I can pass post op. The results are not realistic enough and I won't have the money or energy for all four stages! No matter what I have heard FTM say, I have seen the results and in a "line up" my partner and I could certainly tell the difference. I don't think a man would appreciate my not disclosing. I always say disclose if you intend to date, but I wonder - if the surgeries for us were as great as what the ladies get, would I feel differently?

And to add - women get misgendered all the time. I was sir'd when I was at my most extreme. I've misgendered women when I was working before. Usually its just a auto-pilot thing.

I think you should tell the important people in your life. Don't tell anyone else. They have no need to know.

If someone will love you, they will love you for who you are.

I do not tell anyone unless a guy asks me out.

And when a guy asks me out, I think one of two things:

1. From my experiences with him, is he open with LGBT people? If he is, then I will tell him.

2. If I hardly know him, I will politely decline the date offer because I do not know his stance on LGBT

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 07:51:45 PM
Does my upper body look massive in that pic?  It kinda does huh?
<----------------------------

Not at all. when i first saw the picture a few hours ago i got a bit jealous of how it looks, Noey. You guessed correctly by the way, it is my my voice that sucks. In the last few days I've noticed when I am talking to people that I tend to get nasty or bemused stares. I think I've been a bot lax with it recently, because I've been avoiding going out in general. I also have a nasty brow ridge that I one day would like to get shaved off, if possible.

I think I am with you on the question of disclosure, Noey, every time you address it i find myself nodding. If i can get away with not doing it in the future, I just won't do it. It's hard to meet people here who would be as cruel as those bar workers, but if I get the chance to work in a new job or new area, I'd rather that no-one knew

Coming in very late to this conversation and want to thank you all for your opinions. I'm still in my early stages, not even taking HRT yet because there isn't a doctor in my small town who knows about TG health issues, however I've started on facial laser, growing my hair etc. Early but exciting days. However I frequently get mis-gendered on the phone, despite presenting as male until I feel I can pass better.

I've come out to everyone I know who is important to me, and have been shocked at who continued to love and support me, and who walked away. I'm sure you've all been through that in your early stages as well, so my own 2 cents is when you think about telling or not telling, just think back to when you first came out - who surprised you, and who you always knew would be supportive. I think when we realise even close loved ones can abandon us it makes it really easy to realise that even if you think you know a bit more about your date that perhaps you just don't.

So is it really worth hiding your past? Even if your date seems to love you, you just can't know their reaction to your news until you tell them. I think I'd prefer to be honest and only have people in my life who really want to be in my life warts and all. It hurt like hell when close friends and family told me they don't understand my need to transition and want nothing to do with me, and I don't think I could take that kind of rejection from a person I'm dating.

But I do like the suggestion that disclosure happens around the 3rd date or before intimacy. I don't want to attract deviants, I want to attract real people, and then disclose so I know if they stay with me it's because they love me.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 07:51:45 PM
[clipped]

Does my upper body look massive in that pic?  It kinda does huh?
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That question I may best never ask, see for yourself
Good for you Noey. A 100% pass, no question.

Now, something tends to get muddled up in this thread (my impression) the pre-, non-, post-op situation that often in such threads is cause of a lot of controversy. A lot!

How on God's earth are you NOT going to tell if you NOT post-op

How, would you want NOT to attract "odd" males (such who will stay on)... if you are NOT post-op

Just those two items alone will make one big difference...
And if you say "not so" --- I'd say... dream on.

It was my contention, added to my GD, that if I respect a 'normal' male in getting into a relationship "I" had to be post-op.
I have too much respect of another person/man, not to present him with a 'truth' that might leave him baffled at best - and VERY angry and disappointed at worst.
Unless he's into the "odd" stuff, no need to spell it out, yes?

Food for thought?
Axélle

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 07:51:45 PM

Does my upper body look massive in that pic?  It kinda does huh?
<----------------------------

Wearing very thin shoulderstraps like that make your upper body/shoulders appear bigger than necessary.

Better find yourself tops with wide/broad shoulderstraps.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 26, 2012, 06:18:54 AM
Wearing very thin shoulderstraps like that make your upper body/shoulders appear bigger than necessary.

Better find yourself tops with wide/broad shoulderstraps.

Actually quite wrong according to some other experts... believe it or not

Look at some Olympic female swimmers in their gear... yes?

Axxx

QuoteMy voice is androgynous at best but a natural looking feminine face trumps everything.

This.

Quote from: guapa on August 26, 2012, 02:12:23 AM


So is it really worth hiding your past? Even if your date seems to love you, you just can't know their reaction to your news until you tell them. I think I'd prefer to be honest and only have people in my life who really want to be in my life warts and all. It hurt like hell when close friends and family told me they don't understand my need to transition and want nothing to do with me, and I don't think I could take that kind of rejection from a person I'm dating.

But I do like the suggestion that disclosure happens around the 3rd date or before intimacy. I don't want to attract deviants, I want to attract real people, and then disclose so I know if they stay with me it's because they love me.

I always tell the person who I made the decision to go out with my past. You cannot hide something as complex like that. If you did become serious with someone then you're going to make a mountain out of molehill. You'll have to have your friends and family lie for you, you lie to him, you can never take him to the hospital or doctor visits if you needed to go, etc etc.

And if you tell him on the third date or right before you get intimate, then ..well...let's put it this way: I never seen a fairy tale relationship develop from that standpoint....well...once. Like 1 out of 200.

If you don't tell him and then he finds out, he will feel like you were lying to him. Being trans isn't like throwing up on your kid sister as a child and too embarass to tell your new BF about it.

In an ideal world, if a guy likes you, he won't care about your gender past. But this isn't an ideal world...or even close to it. If you tell him right before sex, you could end up as a statistic for the National Day of Transgender Remembrance.

If you know the guy and really like him then tell him before the first date. If he's ok with it then you know he's a catch. If he says no, at least you found out now....rather than him freaking out before sex....or later down the road (if you're post op) when some cousin of yours tells him you used to be a guy....and then him freaking out.

For whom the following is relevant, people who pass, had SRS, etc.

I would question whether you are being "honest" and "Sharing who/what you really are," by confessing your trans history or whether you are limiting yourself and putting the stops on who you might otherwise be able to become.

Identifying with the process out of concern for the feelings of others is equal to what Don Miguel Ruiz spoke of in his book 'The Four Agreements'.  As children many of us are punished like animals, beaten.  As those of us grow into adulthood we learn to beat ourselves.  It is like putting a heavy chain around a baby elephant's leg, eventually all it takes is a fragile rope or the idea of a chain to keep the elephant from wandering off.

I believe that those who can often don't because of the conditioning they have experienced.  They learn to repress themselves for the sake of others.  But I would ask what good that actually does?  What good does limiting yourself to trans accomplish?  Is that "honesty"?  Should I limit my life out of respect for the collective ignorance?

How many times do you have to hear, "Oh no we are 'real' women but you can't trick someone you love into thinking you are a real woman."  Before you can begin to realize that someone is speaking out of both sides of her mouth?

Very well put, Noey.  We spent way to much time with that little chain around our ankles.

The problem is that most of us come with some sort of family, a work history, and a past that pops into life every once in a while. I can't tell you how many times I would have been put on the spot had I not told my hubby. Then there are the little white lies we must generate with friends. How do you answer all the questions. Do you have children (some of us do), when was your last period, that boy says he knows you from high school.

So, with that said. I find I tell no one anymore. Enough time has passed so that my friends don't ask the sorts of personal questions you have to deal with as an early twenty something. My sentiments are that I wanted to be female and not something or someone else. The unfortunate part about it is that if you don't confide in your closest companions, you could end up dead. It does happen.

We are all living on borrowed time ^_^ .  Every drive to work is a matter of taking your life in your own hands not to mention fast food.

I guess the point I would attempt to make is that it isn't necessarily about being "stealth".  As I have said before... if my life depended upon being "stealth" I would already be dead (many times over). 

Rather I would say it's about what you are willing to say about yourself.  I want to encourage people to ...

QuoteBe Impeccable With Your Word
 Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of the word in the direction of truth and love.
 The first agreement is the most important one and also the most difficult one to honor. It is very, very powerful.
 Through the word you express your creative power. It is through the word that you manifest everything. What you dream, what you feel, and what you really are.
 The word is a force; it is the power you have to express and communicate, to think, and thereby to create the events in your life. But like a sword with two edges, your word can create the most beautiful dream, or your word can destroy everything around you.
 The word is so powerful that one word can change a life or destroy the lives of millions of people. Hitler's word, based on fear-generated beliefs and agreements, will be remembered for centuries.
 During our domestication, our parents and siblings gave their opinions about us without even thinking. We believed these opinions and we lived in fear over these opinions, like not being good at swimming or writing.
 By hooking our attention, the word can enter our mind and change a whole belief for better or worse. For example: You may believe you are stupid. And you may have believed this for as long as you can remember. This belief may cause you to do a lot of things just to ensure that

http://www.frumi.com/images/uploads/thefouragreements.pdf

The thing is that other people are living in their own dreams and you have to speak in their dream language in order to exist in their world, unless maybe you are dating or married to a Toltec Warrior.

Ugg, I dunno, I guess I'm a product of my environment. But is it really that big a deal? I want to be like "holy crap, grow up, it's just a bloody medical condition" to all the folks who apparently freak out about it. Like, wow. Really pathetic.

I expect a partner to be able to handle it. I demand that they be at least that clever. My 75-year-old aunt who goes to church every week can see me as female. It's actually not that hard.

I want to disclose so I don't waste my time on some loser. So I don't emotionally invest in someone so dull that they get hung up on the fact that I was born with a penis. Oh what horror. Christ, I'm brilliant, creative, sexy and tough as all hell. They should be so lucky.

Actually, I want to disclose because I have all these crazy, amazing, beautiful memories and experiences related to my transition. Because the way I see my world now is on some level fundamentally shaped by the horror of my pre-transition existence. Because I want to be able to tell them why the tattoo on my back means so much to me. Because next time I'm at a show where the guy sings about uke-uke-lady-boy riding down a mountain on a tiger (don't ask), and the girl I'm with suggests tattoo-ing said image on her body, I don't want to have to avoid explaining my hysterical giggles. Because I want to be able to share ALL of me. And for better or worse, my history as a trans female IS a part of me.

I have no interest in any of "the collective ignorance." They can leave me well enough alone. And I have no interest in censoring myself to protect someone's fragile f**king ego either. Neither option is even mildly appealing. What's the point of being with someone that I wouldn't even be able to respect?

Is this a thing I just can't get because I'm queer? I have friends who are guys and they don't seem to suck that much. I think people need to date some cooler people. Some people who are like... decent human beings. That doesn't seem like a ton to ask.