1st off let me say that being a Christian it grieves my heart in the worst way, to see people from any place, anywhere be hounded on by uneducated and bigoted Christians (who sadly are raised this way). I can't stand to see violence and abuse thrust on anyone regardless of who they are. I thankfully was taught to love people as I love myself and God. However only recently have I started to be able to accept the idea of being part of the GLBT community. This in to part that I was raised and preached from the bible from that being any of those 4 ways was a sin. People here are showing me some things of how the bible was translated wrong from the greek. I am still doing further studies.

But I also see alot of Gays and Lesbians especially show hatred towards christians in general, i ran into this myself when I was younger, I said hello to a lesbian and tried to have a conversation, she flipped me off and said the F word and said all men are evil.  She would have had no idea what i was like inside my heart. She had no clue that I was struggling with my own gender and sexuality, all she heard was Christian. So one should learn to let go of any misconceptions or ideas of what a person is like until you see the fruits of there actions. You should not hate anyone right off the bat, spit in there face and tell them they are wrong. It all comes down to how would you feel if they did that to you. You have to rise up and be the better human being and be a shining example of how we should be.

I'm not a Christian myself, but I have defended them as a group before. I know many that are really good people who accept others for who they are without judging them. I also know some who are hateful, but I don't think religion made them that way, they just use it as an excuse. Some people are just hateful and rather than admit that its them and their choice to be so, they try to use whatever means to justify it to themselves and others.  And responding to hate with more hate, just a different reasoning behind it, doesn't make it ok, its rather hypocritical in my opinion.

I have had positive experiences with Christians and negative experiences just like I have had positive experiences with other religions and negative experiences with other religions. 

I have no issues with the religions themselves.  I have issues with the people who follow that religion and use it as an excuse to do hateful things.  It's why after all of my studies of history, and the awful things that people did in the name of Christianity, I have no issue with Christianity.  It's why after all of the negative experiences I have had with Christians that I have no issue with the religion.

Religion isn't the problem, it's some of the people who follow it that are.  The majority of followers of any religion aren't going to think less of you or aren't going to give a bunch of hell, but you have that minority that will kill in the name of that religion or harm others in the name of that religion and those are the people I have issues with.

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 26, 2012, 10:56:04 AM
I said hello to a lesbian and tried to have a conversation, she flipped me off and said the F word and said all men are evil.  She would have had no idea what i was like inside my heart. She had no clue that I was struggling with my own gender and sexuality, all she heard was Christian.

Think about this though, where did you meet her?  If she was just random stranger on the street and you came up to her and one of the first things you said is that you are Christian then she likely felt you were about to witness to her and preach hellfire and damnation. Why should a stranger be allowed to waste someone else's time with their religion?

I can't think of any context where you are a Christian would come out so soon in a conversation.

Nope i never brought up that I was a christian. That's the bad part. I was just attempting to make conversation. Just normal chit chat.
I did not tell her directly I was a Christian, but she may have come to that conclusion, I know it was a brief conversation and I think this person might had seen me before at a street mission that is christian.

No one should hate anyone. It's self destructive.

"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule." ~ Buddha

Anger and hatred aren't the same thing.

Anger is a pressure valve. Once the build up is released, it's gone. And you get on with life. Hatred is a deep, burning resentment that festers within. Even when the cause is long gone, or even forgotten about, the hatred remains, like a disease that eats away at you.

Yes see I feel that I am not going to be accepted by either side here, the fundamental Christians are going to despise me and some of the glbt are going to never understand me or despise me. I don't know what the percentage of Christians are that are glbt, but I'm sure its less than Christians who are straight. This is the problem I am going to have to face when I meet someone and then decide later to say "oh by the way I'm a Christian but also MTF" Im going to be the joke of the town, I just can see that as being a real possibility. Its an awful strange place to be stuck in the middle like that.

Quote from: Laura91 on May 26, 2012, 01:31:56 PM
I am aware of this differences between the two. (regardless of what I have said in other posts.)

Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound patronising.

I wish I'd known the difference a bit sooner. It would have saved a whole lot of pain.

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 26, 2012, 01:29:20 PM
Yes see I feel that I am not going to be accepted by either side here, the fundamental Christians are going to despise me and some of the glbt are going to never understand me or despise me. I don't know what the percentage of Christians are that are glbt, but I'm sure its less than Christians who are straight. This is the problem I am going to have to face when I meet someone and then decide later to say "oh by the way I'm a Christian but also MTF" Im going to be the joke of the town, I just can see that as being a real possibility. Its an awful strange place to be stuck in the middle like that.

People can surprise you. Maybe there aren't as many of either extremity as you think.

Hate and anger are very destructive emotions.... and they stem not from what others do to us, but what we know about ourselves inside.  Unfortunately, no one can make us feel anything. If we feel it, it comes from our own insecurities, our own bias, and our own self.  Words are only words.  If someone said "transgendered people disgust me" in Chinese, would you get mad?  No, because you didn't understand him.  But they did say it.  So words cannot matter... if they did, then no matter how they were said, you would feel the same way.

I totally understand that everyone has their beliefs and their opinions, and I respect that.  Whether I agree with it or not is my business.  If I try to prove my point to them, that is coming from ego.  The need to be heard.  the need to be right.  And if you are not heard, or cannot sway their opinion, that's usually when anger comes up.  However, it's ok to say "I'm sorry, but we just don't agree on this issue."  You can say, "I truly respect your opinion, and while I don't agree, I won't argue with you to try to change it".  It is a peaceful response... of course, you have to come from a place where you mean it.  Sometimes people get so focused on themselves, that they don't realize that other people are affected.  How they respond is their stuff... but how you respond is YOUR stuff.  If you want to find peace, you have to act out of peace.

I have compassion for those with closed minds.  Some I can open, some I cannot.  It is easy to have compassion for those we love, but the trick is, and what is necessary, but missing in the world, is having compassion for those who do dispicable things.  Once the world learns this, you will see peace.  All we can control is our actions and our reactions.  Why not react from a place of peace?

Well see for me its not a belief, but a truth of existence, mind you Christians keep twisting things to fit what they want, still i know that God is love and the devil is the opposite of love which is hate. The reason I tell people I believe in God and Jesus is not because I have an ego. I do it because I want them to be able to experience the love and joy I feel inside. I do it because I would like to see them again as a friend in the after life.

Lets take for instance there is a giant hornet about to sting someone on the back, most any good person on this earth would warn them immediately that they are about to get stung and suffer some pain. Since I have been stung before I know what it is like and I would warn them. even people who have not been stung would warn them most likely (unless they were heartless or immature)

So to me the devil is the giant hornet, I can't simply stand by and watch people get stung. I care about them too much to do that. Of course I don't force myself on anyone, rather instead I just show my love to them, and if they ask me why i am so nice to them even if they hurt me I will let them know why. It depends on the situation.

Maybe this is a poor analogy but the truth is like I said before I know no matter what I do I am going to be an outcast to some people and a hypocrite to some as well. It is strange and difficult path to be a Christian Transgender, of this I can see.

Quote from: Strickalator/Supergirl of Earth 3/Lemon Lass on May 26, 2012, 10:56:04 AM
1st off let me say that being a Christian it grieves my heart in the worst way, to see people from any place, anywhere be hounded on by uneducated and bigoted Christians (who sadly are raised this way). I can't stand to see violence and abuse thrust on anyone regardless of who they are. I thankfully was taught to love people as I love myself and God. However only recently have I started to be able to accept the idea of being part of the GLBT community. This in to part that I was raised and preached from the bible from that being any of those 4 ways was a sin. People here are showing me some things of how the bible was translated wrong from the greek. I am still doing further studies.

But I also see alot of Gays and Lesbians especially show hatred towards christians in general, i ran into this myself when I was younger, I said hello to a lesbian and tried to have a conversation, she flipped me off and said the F word and said all men are evil.  She would have had no idea what i was like inside my heart. She had no clue that I was struggling with my own gender and sexuality, all she heard was Christian. So one should learn to let go of any misconceptions or ideas of what a person is like until you see the fruits of there actions. You should not hate anyone right off the bat, spit in there face and tell them they are wrong. It all comes down to how would you feel if they did that to you. You have to rise up and be the better human being and be a shining example of how we should be.

I agree with you.
I was raised a Christian, and still have this same Faith. But I too have seen people taken their Faith and religion forward and use it wrongly and out of context. Hence, part of the bad name we get :p Not every Christian is preachy, or judgmental to those they deem immoral.
I believe none of us are in a position to judge, so why, for example,  should someone who is religious, claim that someone who is gay is going to hell?
Like others have said, its not religion thats the problem (which some people seem to think) but its the people and how they "use" it.

On the other hand, I have probably experienced more anti religious comments and behaviour, which gets on my nerves to be honest. But Im not going to stand there and berate them. The best I can do, is get on with my life, and hope that the way I live and morals that I demonstrate will be an example of what being a Christian is to me.

Quote from: Strickalator/Supergirl of Earth 3/Lemon Lass on May 26, 2012, 10:56:04 AM
1st off let me say that being a Christian it grieves my heart in the worst way, to see people from any place, anywhere be hounded on by uneducated and bigoted Christians (who sadly are raised this way). I can't stand to see violence and abuse thrust on anyone regardless of who they are. I thankfully was taught to love people as I love myself and God. However only recently have I started to be able to accept the idea of being part of the GLBT community. This in to part that I was raised and preached from the bible from that being any of those 4 ways was a sin. People here are showing me some things of how the bible was translated wrong from the greek. I am still doing further studies.

But I also see alot of Gays and Lesbians especially show hatred towards christians in general, i ran into this myself when I was younger, I said hello to a lesbian and tried to have a conversation, she flipped me off and said the F word and said all men are evil.  She would have had no idea what i was like inside my heart. She had no clue that I was struggling with my own gender and sexuality, all she heard was Christian. So one should learn to let go of any misconceptions or ideas of what a person is like until you see the fruits of there actions. You should not hate anyone right off the bat, spit in there face and tell them they are wrong. It all comes down to how would you feel if they did that to you. You have to rise up and be the better human being and be a shining example of how we should be.

First of all, about her comments with men. No she might not have known that you were questioning your gender, or that you might feel like you were growing closer to the LGBT community. But people who are raised female have always had very good reasons to be distrustful of people presenting themselves as heterosexual cissexed men. Given the way lesbians are viewed by society and how they are often treated by men, I would say she was justified in reacting as she did given the limited information she had. For example, a while me and a group of other people (all from lgbt community, some of them lesbians) went to the nude beach for a party. Almost the whole time there was this creepy little hetero dude who kept lurking around some of the women, asking them if they're lesbians blah blah blah and basically trying to hook up. That's the kind of ->-bleeped-<- lesbians (and women generally) get from random men all the time. So as much as you meant no harm, and even though you now know yourself not to be a hetero cis man, if this was before you came out when you were presenting yourself as male to the world...I wouldn't fault her for feeling the way she did.

Some people will say "oh even in the case of cismen, you have to give them a chance." In this society, that's just not reality. Cismen are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violence and frequently force themselves, even verbally (which, yes, is just as much of a violation), on women. That a woman would want to get away from that possibility is not surprising. When a person is a part of a dominant class in society, they shouldn't have the opportunity to claim to be discriminated against, imo. The power imbalance is too large for that. It's like if I, as a white person, went all "boohoo no fair" when someone calls me racist. As a part of that dominant class, I shouldn't get that opportunity. The system itself is already heavily racist...just as the system itself is already heavily misogynist.

And yeah, I see the same thing with Christians...and it really gets me when Christians whine about the queer/trans community "hating" on them. Radical Christians and even moderates have poured so much hate into society and religion is directly responsible for homophobic and transphobic ideology. Its not as though atheists are the ones most frequently running around screaming "homosexuality is an unnatural sin!" Sorry, but Christianity gets no pity from me. It is more often the aggressor than the victim and its about time those being discriminated against fight back, instead of trying to play the "oh well, people hate on me, but I'm just going to turn the other cheek and love everyone." Nothing will ever change that way, until marginalised people stand up for themselves.

Sadly, all these radical christians make the religion look bad. I'm christian, and it embarrases me when radical christians
make fools of us. If certain LGBTs can't be nice to each other they should'nt say anyting to each other at all.

I was a member of the Anglican Church, but currently consider my self an atheist because of the hypocrisy I found in the churches.
The thing I have the most trouble with theologically is Romans 1:32, with gays "deserving death." 

For someone who has become aware that I can technically call myself Jewish through my mother's side of the family, that gets me really angry.

  I no doubt have distant relatives who died in the Holocaust because they "deserved death" too. When the Churches actually do something beyond half-hearted apologies I will be prepared to take them more seriously. The ball really is in their court.

Karen.

In general, I don't like Christianity. Too many bad apples in there who are hypocrites. Like the many many Catholic Priests who molest the Choir Boys  that think it's okay to do so as long as they confess on Sunday. There's too many denominations too and each with their own views and perpetration of the Bible. Nor do I enjoy the mindless bigoted sheeple who believe they are pure believers and tell every person who fits the GLBT spectrum that they are going to hell, etc....

You get the idea.

However....

I met a pastor who has healed a wound in my family. My Brother-in-Law, as I have talked about before, said some very hurtful things when I began transition. We didn't talk for over a year because he felt like I had slighted him by transitioning.
My Mother-in-Law passed away a few weeks ago. For the sake of Family, my Brother-in-law and I set aside our differences to come together in support of our wives family. 
After the Memorial, I thanked the pastor for his moving words. (I cried as hard as my wife and her sisters despite trying not to). He then asked my Brother-in-Law, "Who is the woman with the black hair?"

He explained to the pastor who I was, my transition, etc. The pastor told him, "Your job, is not to judge her. Yours is to simply love her."

Afterwards, my Brother-in-law told me what he had said and and that even his Dad, whom I have known for years, asked "Who is that woman with black hair ?" So I was definitely passing. He also said that I was welcome back into his life again. He invited me to go to church on Sunday with him, to see why my Mother-in-Law liked it so much.

On one hand, I was not interested. On the other, the pastors words were still ringing in my ears. So, I went. And I kind of enjoyed it. Afterwards my Brother-in-Law asked how I like it. I gave him my opinion and that I was still unsure I could go again. Having to explain,'why I look like a woman' would get awkward if people asked him. My Brother-in-Law said that, if it got me to come to church, he would use female pronouns so that we didn't have to explain.

So, what can I say? I still find the people who cast stones with a bible in one hand and a bottle of Jack Daniels in the other to be evil little turds. But I think I have found a church that I could be a part of. A small part of Christianity that seems to be untouched by the flawed hatred of closet case Ministers and bigots with crosses.

See? I'm not entirely hateful, I just simply dont like the turds in the punch bowl. Like Westboro Baptist Church.

QuoteBut I also see alot of Gays and Lesbians especially show hatred towards christians in general, i ran into this myself when I was younger, I said hello to a lesbian and tried to have a conversation, she flipped me off and said the F word and said all men are evil.  She would have had no idea what i was like inside my heart. She had no clue that I was struggling with my own gender and sexuality, all she heard was Christian.

QuoteNope i never brought up that I was a christian. That's the bad part. I was just attempting to make conversation. Just normal chit chat.
I did not tell her directly I was a Christian, but she may have come to that conclusion, I know it was a brief conversation and I think this person might had seen me before at a street mission that is christian.

There are some lesbians who sincerely and deeply HATE men. That's probably why  she hated on you.

The thing I despise about Christians is the sense of smug superiority they seem to have..."Oh, you're trans? Don't you want to go to heaven?" As if being trans was a sin, that is not covered by the Blood! (I used to be Christian until about a decade ago; long story and don't want to get into it now).

Back in the day, I explored churches, looking for a good congregation (ie, one that wasn't arrogant) and pretty much stopped after seeing several dozen churches in 3 different major metro areas, all having the same attitude. I do keep an open mind, however, and have recently found one that might be acceptable to me.  Only bad part is, that's the church my friend's funeral was in (he killed himself).

So...I'll do my part, accept Christians as they are, but ultimately will ask them to go in peace, and do no harm.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 27, 2012, 09:10:24 AM
There are some lesbians who sincerely and deeply HATE men. That's probably why  she hated on you.

The thing I despise about Christians is the sense of smug superiority they seem to have..."Oh, you're trans? Don't you want to go to heaven?" As if being trans was a sin, that is not covered by the Blood! (I used to be Christian until about a decade ago; long story and don't want to get into it now).

Back in the day, I explored churches, looking for a good congregation (ie, one that wasn't arrogant) and pretty much stopped after seeing several dozen churches in 3 different major metro areas, all having the same attitude. I do keep an open mind, however, and have recently found one that might be acceptable to me.  Only bad part is, that's the church my friend's funeral was in (he killed himself).

So...I'll do my part, accept Christians as they are, but ultimately will ask them to go in peace, and do no harm.

There are very few true christians and churches. True christians don't hate homosexuals/transsexuals. Sorry if i miss spelled i'm not good at that.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on May 26, 2012, 01:29:20 PM
Yes see I feel that I am not going to be accepted by either side here, the fundamental Christians are going to despise me and some of the glbt are going to never understand me or despise me. I don't know what the percentage of Christians are that are glbt, but I'm sure its less than Christians who are straight. This is the problem I am going to have to face when I meet someone and then decide later to say "oh by the way I'm a Christian but also MTF" Im going to be the joke of the town, I just can see that as being a real possibility. Its an awful strange place to be stuck in the middle like that.

Hi Shawn Sunshine, Transgender,Christian and Lesbian/Pansexual, I accept you just as Christ does. We're all in the same boat, you and I especially being transgendered believers. It's ok that there are some haters, it always emanates from ignorance. I'm not religious, don't go to church, I'm just a believer. Some folks have had negative experiences from church going religious types and their hatred and disgust comes as a matter of self defense. What a lot of people don't understand is that there are a lot of people who claim the mantle of Christian and play at church and religion but they are phoneys just playing a game. The real deal doesn't hate! I think Sephirah has it right, hatred is self destructive and eats one up. I have met many transgendered believers, there are more than would admit that they are Christian, we're all just human beings aren't we dear? Hang in there Sunshine, you're not alone here kid!

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on May 26, 2012, 01:29:20 PM
Yes see I feel that I am not going to be accepted by either side here, the fundamental Christians are going to despise me and some of the glbt are going to never understand me or despise me. I don't know what the percentage of Christians are that are glbt, but I'm sure its less than Christians who are straight. This is the problem I am going to have to face when I meet someone and then decide later to say "oh by the way I'm a Christian but also MTF" Im going to be the joke of the town, I just can see that as being a real possibility. Its an awful strange place to be stuck in the middle like that.

The really odd ducks are those of us who try to hold to our fundamental teachings but try to work through them. It's a very,very fine line. Kind of like walking on the edge of a razor. To many fundamentalists forget we are ALL made in the image of God. They forget the compassion and love that Christ showed. Just because we are coming from a different place doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't love us also. They have just as many faults and in many cases more. To often they don't want to see the human being inside. The one that is hurting and needs the love and compassion. Don't they need it to?

On the other hand when those in the GBLT community find out your a "Christian" it's just as easy to marginalize them also. It is understandable. To often they see "Christians" who have a log in their own eye trying to remove a speck from someones else's eye.  All that happens is that the one with the log is beating up the one with the speck. They see the "Christian" lie to their boss,getting drunk and stoned,cheat,steal,curse,etc.,and then have the unmitigated gall
to accuse someone else of their "flaws".  A Christian is to remove that log from their own eye first,but to often it's not done. Is it any wonder that it seems cheap,shallow and feeble,and false?

See the thing is one can not know where the other is coming from unless you talk to them and try to understand where the other is coming from.  One may or may not agree with the other but it does not mean that just because one comes from one group,that they hate the other group. To many people make assumptions just based on the group the one is associated.
We forget that when one assumes to much all it does is make an ass out of you and me.

Is it any different if the one side is seen as being hateful is then turned on and hated back,or is it the same? Is that not the pot calling the kettle black? Is either side truly innocent in this?
When the two come together and somehow it is said that they are taking the "High Moral Ground" and it resorts to name calling,spitting,and things being thrown is either side acting any better or have both sunk to the very same level? (It has happened)

If the High Moral Ground is to be taken there will be a cost. Hate is not an option and will get no one anywhere. It's like pouring gasoline on a smoldering ember. Does it really accomplish anything at all? Or is it that it just polarizes both sides so much more?