Quote from: Andy8715 on August 31, 2012, 09:42:05 PM
A question related to this: If abortion were illegal, what punishment should be given to women who have abortions?

This is kind of where I was going with the thought that, if they made it illegal and with some of these new things they want to pass, would even women whose bodies naturally abort (miscarry) be under scrutiny?

Besides all that, if a law passes that considers it murder, then I would imagine the punishment would be similar to other forms of murder. Kind of a scary thought.

I mean I definitely think there needs to be rules – but there already are. It's definitely one of those where do you draw the line arguments that no one can really win. But making something like this illegal has very bad repercussions as well.

Thank you all for your responses and civilized conversation, it's been great hearing well thought out responses. 

Andy, if it were illegal and there were consequences, I would suspect "minor" murder charges that end with jail time like two to five years. We all know people can get carried away though, and an innocent woman would probably end up in jail for twenty years or otherwise getting treated ridiculously.

I think a lot of people haven't been able to put themselves in someone elses shoes for this kinda stuff. I am pro choice i sat there with a friend way back in high school when her doctor told her she would die if she kept the baby cause her reprouctive system wasnt right. I sat there with her also when she had her abortion. I decided to never have one and thought it shouldn't be a problem since i only like women right? well i was wrong I was raped andI was faced with that choice. I decided to keep him and I am glad I did cause he's awesome. I had to make a lot of sacrafices when that happened I was only 17 and ended up flunking my last year of highschool and had to repeat it after he was born not everyone is ready or willing to make those sacrafices due to someone else forcing themselves on you. I think it should be up to the person not anyone else and they should have any option avaliable .

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 31, 2012, 10:29:18 PM
This is kind of where I was going with the thought that, if they made it illegal and with some of these new things they want to pass, would even women whose bodies naturally abort (miscarry) be under scrutiny?

Besides all that, if a law passes that considers it murder, then I would imagine the punishment would be similar to other forms of murder. Kind of a scary thought.

I mean I definitely think there needs to be rules – but there already are. It's definitely one of those where do you draw the line arguments that no one can really win. But making something like this illegal has very bad repercussions as well.

This was something that came up when my friend and I were talking about the law that wanted to make the date of conception the last day of the last cycle. About 70% of pregnancies miscarry without anyone ever noticing. The human body naturally will miscarry if there is something fundamentally wrong with the cells. It seems frightening to think that some of the radicals want women to held accountable for every miscarriage when so many happen naturally.

It also seems a stretch to make it illegal if there are serious health risks to either the mother or child that could lead to the death of one or both of them. I don't think someone should have to risk their own life and face a murder charge.

Quote from: Frank on August 31, 2012, 10:50:49 PM
Thank you all for your responses and civilized conversation, it's been great hearing well thought out responses. 

Andy, if it were illegal and there were consequences, I would suspect "minor" murder charges that end with jail time like two to five years. We all know people can get carried away though, and an innocent woman would probably end up in jail for twenty years or otherwise getting treated ridiculously.

Even minor charges seem scary to me, given the above reasons. It seems like there is no one way to make it a cut and dry argument. Abortion = this jail term.

Though I admit that I am happy the conversation has flowed so well. Its fun to hear responses, even I don't agree. Hearing it from all sides is a great way to broaden understanding. The human condition certainly is interesting.

Quote from: Traivs on September 01, 2012, 12:16:17 AM
I think a lot of people haven't been able to put themselves in someone elses shoes for this kinda stuff. I am pro choice i sat there with a friend way back in high school when her doctor told her she would die if she kept the baby cause her reprouctive system wasnt right. I sat there with her also when she had her abortion. I decided to never have one and thought it shouldn't be a problem since i only like women right? well i was wrong I was raped andI was faced with that choice. I decided to keep him and I am glad I did cause he's awesome. I had to make a lot of sacrafices when that happened I was only 17 and ended up flunking my last year of highschool and had to repeat it after he was born not everyone is ready or willing to make those sacrafices due to someone else forcing themselves on you. I think it should be up to the person not anyone else and they should have any option avaliable .

Honestly, I just wanted to say that I admire that you for being able to make those sacrifices. I imagine that it was not easy by any stretch, but I am glad that you have been able to love your son and find joy in him. Not many are able to do that. It takes a lot of strength that I honestly don't think I have.

Quote from: Ayden on August 30, 2012, 11:36:32 PM
I wasn't trying to offend you. I was just saying that abortion does not lead to disabilities. If I seemed harsh it is because I have heard that same argument come from the mouths of so many right wing old men who take the choice away from women. I have heard pastors tell rape victims that if they got an abortion then when they tried to have kids the devil would give them a deformed child. I wasn't accusing you. I was saying its a story that people use and it does not necessarily have any foundation. I only had what you wrote, and I misinterpreted your meaning. So, I apologize. My father in law works with the disabled and my husband hopes to one day. I also have disabled people in my family, including my little brother, and I have been trying to protect him from people's harshness his whole life. So, its a sensitive topic for me too.

Quite alright. I just get defensive when people judge me before they even get to know me. Happened allll my life. Anyways, I'm not even sure on the exact number. But my mom flew into town tonight so I'll ask her to tell me the full story again in the morning. It's probably like 3, it's been a while since I last heard it and time time to cause exaggerations.

Quote from: Traivs on September 01, 2012, 12:16:17 AM
I think a lot of people haven't been able to put themselves in someone elses shoes for this kinda stuff. I am pro choice i sat there with a friend way back in high school when her doctor told her she would die if she kept the baby cause her reprouctive system wasnt right. I sat there with her also when she had her abortion. I decided to never have one and thought it shouldn't be a problem since i only like women right? well i was wrong I was raped andI was faced with that choice. I decided to keep him and I am glad I did cause he's awesome. I had to make a lot of sacrafices when that happened I was only 17 and ended up flunking my last year of highschool and had to repeat it after he was born not everyone is ready or willing to make those sacrafices due to someone else forcing themselves on you. I think it should be up to the person not anyone else and they should have any option avaliable .

Thanks for having the courage to share your story. What you went through isnt something that everyone would be able to deal with, so its admiring to hear of how you came out the other side, and how you feel about your decision as whats important is that your child is loved.
But atleast your son sounds like he has a great role model in you as his father

Quote from: KyleXX on September 01, 2012, 04:04:17 AM
Quite alright. I just get defensive when people judge me before they even get to know me. Happened allll my life. Anyways, I'm not even sure on the exact number. But my mom flew into town tonight so I'll ask her to tell me the full story again in the morning. It's probably like 3, it's been a while since I last heard it and time time to cause exaggerations.

I understand. I get sensitive about it as well. My brother has to deal with a lot of social stigma for having a disability so I am hyper sensitive about defending him. Big brother syndrome and all that.  I would like to hear the number though, as it is an interesting perspective.

This has been an excellent conversation and as one who came into this universe with XY chromosomes I felt as if this was a great learning moment for me. My hat is off to everyone for such civil posts on such a heated topic, although I can imagine that there were more than a few keyboards smoking. My apologies to Frank as my post #3 came across a bit icky based on my preconceived notions, forgive me Frank I was sort of a jerk! Although I'm not in favor of abortions per se, common sense makes it clear that there are circumstances that warrant it such as rape, incest, and saving the life of the mother. These should always be a legal option without question. I think what many people resent are those who consider it their personal preference time and again rather than take responsibility and use contraceptives. Then there are many who feel that it shouldn't be something that is taxpayer funded, that's what irritates the Republicans who want to shrink government, abortions should be privately funded.

Quote from: Shantel on September 01, 2012, 09:51:54 AM
Then there are many who feel that it shouldn't be something that is taxpayer funded, that's what irritates the Republicans who want to shrink government, abortions should be privately funded.

The problem with having privately funded abortions is that a large group of people who I feel should be able to have abortions - those who fell pregnant for whatever reason and know that they cannot afford to bring up a child - will no longer be able to afford abortions, forcing them to either make a total mess of bringing up a child or give the child up for adoption, and I think we all agree here that the adoption services are already severely over taxed.  I'm not saying that poorer people can't do a good job of bring up children, but rather some people just can't financially support another mouth to feed without plunging into poverty and it should be the government's job to help these people who are on the borderline rather than forcing them to give birth to a child who is more than likely to impoverish them.  Maybe a more sensible solution if pregnancies could no longer rely soley on taxpayers money would be to have a sliding scale of cost based on the income of the person seeking an abortion and their reasons for falling pregnant and for wishing to have an abortion, but I think it would require a lot of policing, honesty, and some people would just abuse that system to get a cheaper abortion so I don't think it would ever be a brilliant system.

Of course there would always be those people who couldn't afford to pay for an abortion and resorted to illegal - and unsafe - methods or carried a child to term that would grow up unwanted, and I'd never ask for a child to be brought up unwanted, I know a lot of people have had it much worse, but my mother was on the Pill when she managed to conceive me and hadn't planned for any children until they'd gotten more comfortable with their financial and work situation.  Their boss refused to give them any leave (they had a joint position in a pub) so my mother ended up working until she physically couldn't and when she couldn't my father had to work every single shift to cover hers as well and if I'd been born half an hour later he wouldn't have been there as he had to go back and work or they would have lost their job and house, so obviously it wasn't a situation they wanted to bring a baby up in.  They left there and became self-employed in another pub, and their hours meant that they were rarely around when I was growing up, never doing things with me that 'normal' parents did, like go to school sports days and having my grandparents bring me up 90% of the time.  All of that together meant that I felt that I came second to their work, that I didn't know them at all - which was part of the reason I never spoke to them about depression or feeling suicidal - and just generally played a huge part in messing me up.  So I believe that there are some situations where children are harmed unintentionally and if I had the choice to have been aborted back then I would of, so when they had a child a few years later, like they had planned, it would have grown up in a better situation and have trusted and known them more.

Ok, I don't think how conception occurred (with//without protection, etc.) should have anything to do with abortion policies. People make mistakes and shouldn't be punished for a moment's thoughtlessness in regards to conception.

It's okay Shantel, as you say, I expected some smokin' (more like burst into fire) keyboards.  And perhaps I was insensitive, I tried not to be but it happens...

While I'm here, part of the reason I bought this up was because a friend of mine lives in a state that is making it impossible to get abortions and she's one of those ladies who will die if she has kids again. Luckily her tubes are tied but what about everyone else who isn't so lucky? I love my friend, I don't want her to die because she accidentally got pregnant and nobody will save her over a few cells.

I don't like the idea of them outlawing abortion.  While it might make it illegal, people are going to go back to back alley abortions which can kill the mom if it happens.  I also dislike it since I view the fetus as nothing but a clump of cells that's parasitic in nature; I don't consider it living until approximately 26 weeks, when it can live on its own without medical intervention outside of the womb. 

Another issue I have is that some don't want an abortion to happen even if it could save the life of the mother.  So, it's better to kill [what they view as] two people instead of one?  I don't understand that thinking at all, but I also don't understand the desire to carry something around for that long in the womb anyway.

And yet another thing:  What if the person can't financially care for it?  People suggest adoption, but could you give up something that you carried inside of you for nine months?  Many people say they could, but the majority don't realize the emotional toll that it has on the person and that the person is being constantly bombarded by hormones that are trying to get them to bond with the fetus. 

Are the anti-abortionists willing to take care of that child and make sure it has housing?  Are they willing to let that kid be put into an over-burdened foster system that provides substandard care?  Most never think of what's going to happen to the child after it's born.  The child, if unwanted, will potentially be in a household that resents it or put into a system that ships the kid around and where lots of people only foster for that paycheck they'll get. 

Quote from: edderkopp on August 30, 2012, 09:13:32 PM
If I was raped and I got pregnant, I would have an abortion in a heartbeat. No thought process, no questions asked. I'd be at the clinic tomorrow.

I'd be the same. For me a fetus is nowhere near as important as the person carrying it, they should always have the choice no matter what the reason for it is.

Around 4 years ago, my ex came to me and told me she had been raped and was afraid that she might be pregnant. This was about a year after we had stopped dating. I took her to the store and got some pregnancy tests, and all 3 were positive. When we sat down to talk about it, I told her if she wanted to carry it to term, I would adopt it. She said she couldn't handle it mentally, and so I took her to the clinic. It was her choice, and I respected it. I held her, and helped her the entire night, and it broke my heart.

About a month later, she showed up at my place of work with the man she had told me raped her. I was so furious. With her, with him, with myself... I still don't know the truth. If she had lied about it. If she was doing her same old thing and sticking herself in dangerous situations (which she did, a lot, for no reason that I could ever understand). I haven't talked to her again, and I don't know if I ever will.

I'm still pro-choice. I believe that it is up to the individual in question, and I think that the choice they make will effect them far more than anyone's opinions about it. If I were ever sexually assaulted again and ended up pregnant, I don't know what my choice would be anymore. I guess it would depend on my mental state.

It should absolutely be the choice of the person in question as to whether or not to remain pregnant.  The very idea of forcing an unwilling person to carry out a pregnancy and go through childbirth fills me with rage.  There are few circumstances in which I think it should be permissible to remove certain choices regarding a person's own body from that person, and this is definitely not one of them.  The life of an already living, breathing person always trumps that of an unfeeling thing feeding off of that person's body.
As for myself, I have no desire to ever be pregnant or reproduce in any way.  The thought of pregnancy has never appealed to me and it does, in fact, give me that "wrong/gross" feeling when I try to imagine it.  I don't know if this is relevant to my gender or just to my fear and revulsion regarding parasites, but even if I could reproduce in another way, I would not choose to do so.  Despite the curiosity I would undoubtedly have over how my child might have turned out, I would not wish to bring more into the world.  If I ever decide to become a parent, I will adopt.  It will be my choice, not something forced upon me before I am ready either physically or mentally simply because I somehow managed to get pregnant.