Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PM
I never said that it makes someone less male. I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.

Yes, there are in fact people who are outside the "queer bubble" who are straight and cisgendered who understand why someone who identifies as a male would not get bottom surgery, would be ok with themselves without it, etc.  You can't make an assumption like that about the entire non-queer community as a whole.

Quote from: Amazon D on February 29, 2012, 04:13:27 PM
Gender is between the ears not the legs.

This

Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PM
I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.

Call me naive, but I don't expect anyone to "understand" what's between my legs and what I decide to "put" there or not - because it's honestly none of their business at all.
When people perceive someone as male, they will draw conclusions regarding what's between their legs anyway - however they tend to have no chance to verify those conclusions (and for the most part, they don't care).
Just like any other person, I am not obliged to discuss my downstairs with anyone.

All I can say to someone "outside the queer bubble" who says "I can't understand why an FTM wouldn't want bottom surgery", is "I can't understand why you would care so much about what's in other people's pants". What makes people think that voyeurism is any less inappropriate when it comes to trans people anyways?

Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PM
Yeah, I wasn't referring to people who've given up on it because of financial issues or the bad quality of the results or even the long healing time. I mean the people who, if those things weren't factors, still wouldn't get it. The explanation you gave was reasonable and I can understand that; thanks for clarifying, Ayden.

I never said that it makes someone less male. I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.

I didn't think you were saying that it made anyone less male, I was just caught up in the discussion. It is interesting for me to hear about others opinions on things.

I don't really understand the confusion, to me it's quite simple. Transsexuals are people whos gender doesn't match what their sex is, transsexuals have different levels of dysphoria and therefore different needs transition wise.

For me I have no difficulty in understanding why some trans men don't want T, top surgery and hysto even though for me they absolutely had to happen, I need those things due to my dysphoria. I have no dysphoria with my genitals and don't require surgery there, I haven't ruled out meta but if I ever had meta it would be because I wanted it, not because I needed it.

And those outside the 'queer bubble' don't understand even if we do get bottom surgery. In fact, the whole genital surgery aspect is what squicks the general public out in the first place. Everybody can relate to wanting to change their appearance. Plenty of people get breast or facial procedures. Or even take HRT or steroids. It's the idea of scalpels in the genital area that really makes people uncomfortable. That's excluding the social aspects of course, but if we're just talking the physical part, that's what the rest of the world has a harder time wrapping their heads around.
Not that it's their business either way.

Quote from: darknavy on February 28, 2012, 08:39:15 AM
So I was reading the topic "All of you hate your female genitalia?" and I'm really confused now. Keep in mind reading this, I'm young so my brain hasn't developed fully yet so... Cut me some slack if I come across badly.

I thought being FTM (Female-TO-MALE) meant transitioning from female to male. I'm right so far, right? Yes. But yet I keep hearing about guys who don't want bottom surgery (I know the options aren't the best but they surely must be better than what you have now, if you're pre-op). Some don't even want Testosterone, I've even heard of people who doesn't want to do anything, not even TOP SURGERY! So basically they just want to be called HE and that's really it. What's the point of that? I don't get at all. Because I could care less about what people call me (I'm FTM btw). What I do care about though is fixing this horrible situation I'm in. And I don't see how you can forget that your body is wrong. And I just can't seem to find any other guy (or girl even) that feels this the way I do. Like it is so INTENSE and it's 24/7, I can barely function! Showering and that time of the month is just unbearable, I go into a deep depression EVERY SINGLE TIME either happens. The only way I could imagine it happening would like this, "oh right, I'd forgotten, my life is a living hell." Which is impossible, I'd have a bigger chance of forgetting I'm on fire.

So yeah, and I'll add a bonus question, is there anybody that actually has the same intense dysphoria? or knows anywhere I could find some people that do? it just feels like the cliche, "nobody understands me" or at least not how I feel.

I'm assuming you're young and haven't started physical transition, so I apologize if I'm wrong in thinking that.  But the dysphoria you're dealing with now, it will get better.  I felt the same way before T and about my chest.  I couldn't focus on anything else except how much I hated my body and how uncomfortable it made me.  I was similar to you, I didn't care as much about presenting as male (and actually held off on transition because I didn't want people to see me as a typical dude), but the dysphoria was too much to deal with.  A lot has changed in 3 years though, I'm not dysphoric at all anymore, and I haven't had bottom surgery and most likely never will.  I used to want it, but honestly since starting T, I've been cool with it for reasons I can't explain.  Some people don't get how I could accept this part of my body, just like I don't personally understand how someone would not want top surgery.  But it's just that everyone's different and deals with different levels of dysphoria about different parts of their body.  Some people find a way to cope with it.  For me, I think I just learned to accept the things that I can't change and focused on the ones that I could.  But trust me, you're not alone, I know I felt the same way, and many other trans people do as well. 

Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PMWhat are you facepalming at?

I'm facepalming at this entire thread. The language being used is inaccurate. Someone assumed that unless you've had bottom surgery you're down stairs area is female. Many (my self included) people do not consider it  female even BEFORE surgery. Secondly, no one has a right to assume the gender of another person based on what surgeries they've had or plan to have. Someone who is pre-T and pre-op or no HRT and non op can be male. No one can tell them otherwise because it's their body. Not anyone elses. I thought we've moved on from this? I get that people can get confused, but a few people have used language that is disrespectful and tactless. Remember, the trans* spectrum is huge and many people are under it. Let's not make assumptions about anyone's bodies or identities.

Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PM

I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.

This is a really bad form to assume for your sake "the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website" agrees with you. It's basically saying -I'm going to speak for the billions of other people on the planet and use them to reinforce my position-. I know for a fact many of the people "outside of the queer bubble" do not agree with you and I would venture to guess more than a few think surgically altering our bodies is wrong, unnecessary and don't understand that. I've had several people, who were new to discussing TG issues, say they can't understand why someone would want to alter their bodies if they can live as their chosen gender without surgery.

I can only speak for myself when I say how I feel. Or possibly reflect on what a very small percentage of the worlds population I have talked with have said to me, realizing they don't represent "The rest of the world". Lets try not to over generalize and bring an army of sock puppets into the conversation.

I'd like to add my two cents.

Just because I don't want SRS right now and am not rushing towards it in a frenzy doesn't mean that I don't want it ever. Firstly, it's incredibly expensive. On that note, I'd rather pay for a college education and the things I need for said education right now. I'm thinking that T will be on the table if I have a surplus of money later.  Another thing to consider is that despite the fact that I've been ruminating for the past four years, it doesn't mean I know a thing about what I want down the road. I worry that I might choose SRS and regret it. That's something that bothers me...what if I do regret it? The reason I think of this is because my mother commented on it, and worries that I'd be one of those people who regret the decision to transition. Granted, her constant cajoling doesn't help at all when it comes to determining what I want, because I know she'd rather have a cis-gendered daughter than a transgendered son. However, she has a point; there are transsexuals who regret their decisions, even if it's rare. How do I know that won't happen, in my case? I'd rather be sure than sorry. Another thing is that I'm just mildly discontent, and can go through my day to day life without many problems.

I suppose the short-hand version of what I'm trying to say is that when it comes to transitioning, I have multiple conflicting interests.

I just play the hand I'm dealt. I can't afford bottom surgery. Top surgery is an absolute necessity for me but I don't know how or when I can pull it off. Even if I had the money, who takes care of my kid while I recover? Who takes care of me? Last time I had surgery the hospital refused to release me because I couldn't prove I had a ride home. When my (mentally ill) daughter got angry she kicked the incisions. I wasn't able to rest and my recovery was not quick.

I'm still paying off old medical bills, and I likely will be for years. I live how I live, and I find that it's usually other people deciding they need to categorize and label it.

Also, this site isn't a bubble. Go to most colleges or any major city, and you'll see what you see here.

Funny thing about that whole "queer bubble" that was mentioned?
Its not like there's some magical exclusion of dumbass, bigoted idiocy even in said mythical bubble. How many people have been harassed for being too femme/tomboy? I can't speak for MTFs, but there are plenty of transmen who outright hate guys who are anything other than super-macho gym fanatics.  Hell, there's probably entire sites dedicated to it.

If you haven't encountered this yourself, then I could see where you might think everything really is all sprinkles and sunshine in queer communities, but its absolutely not. Hate is universal, often unrelated to who you're sleeping with and what parts you have/don't have. Anyone can be a jackass.

I've seen all sorts of insensitive and bigoted and ignorant behavior inside the queer bubble. I've seen bigotry against a trans guy (not me) who came to the gay men's group and wasn't "passing." They called him "she." I'm quite certain that some of the men in my gay group would shun me if they knew my history. Some wouldn't care what I've done to my body. Some wouldn't care if I had equipment that rivals theirs. No matter what, they would see me as a liar or an impostor or both.

Inside the trans community, I've been attacked for not telling every person I meet that I am trans, for not being openly trans (without telling absolutely everyone), for not being an activist, for missing trans events, for being gay and not straight, for being gay rather than pansexual or bisexual, for having issues with women, for spending most of my time with cisgender men, for not wanting to consider sexual relationships with trans men, for wanting sexual relationships with guys who have typical penises, for being interested in bottom surgery, for not being interested in bottom surgery, for not being in touch with my "female history/side," and for feeling solidly male rather than identifying as trans or non-binary or genderqueer.

I think you'll find more than one contradiction in that mess. Why people can't just let me be who I am, I'll never know. I have a hard enough time with self-acceptance without everybody else's judgments piled on top of that.

At first, I didn't want bottom surgery. I came out back in the days when Lou Sullivan's FTM book was a key resource, and I saw the pictures. I heard the stories of failed surgeries, deformed results, infections, fissures, and multiple revisions. And I knew that my partner wouldn't be cool with bottom surgery.

I'm out of that relationship now. I still don't know whether I want bottom surgery. I don't heal well, I'm prone to infection, and, quite frankly, I don't have the cash. If I did have the money, I wouldn't spend it on surgery. Not in this economy.

I've had my big soulmate relationship and don't expect another, so I'm not expecting anyone else to see my downstairs bits. I pack, and it helps. Do I want a typical penis, or something closer to a typical penis? Yes, I do. But that doesn't mean I want one of the current surgical options, and it doesn't mean I can afford it. Do I have dysphoria about that part of my body? Absolutely. Every damned day, and I wish I didn't.

And I have a couple of close trans friends who say they do not want bottom surgery, ever. Maybe they'll change their minds. Maybe not. What the f*** do I care? What business is it of mine? They are my friends, they are boys, they live as men (as I do), and they have some peace with the lower part of their bodies. That's a damn sight better than where I am. The way I fight and struggle and hold onto things, I may never be at peace. But my ambivalence about bottom surgery has nothing to do with you, and it's really none of your business.

That is just silly. You are not transsexual if you do not want the sex change. You are either genderqueer or just transgender. Transgender= intersex indivduals, transsexuals, and qenderqueers.

Quote from: Realdimensionaltggirlhere on September 03, 2012, 10:53:11 AM
That is just silly. You are not transsexual if you do not want the sex change. You are either genderqueer or just transgender. Transgender= intersex indivduals, transsexuals, and qenderqueers.

This is why I think this tread is stupid.
1. Why do you always use so many labels? Sometimes I feel I need to use labels or else people don't understand. I can't just say I'm male without people wanting to use labels on me.
2. transsexual is when you have body dysphobia. It's so simple. Body dysphobia may make you want to take T and maybe have surgeries. It's doesn't mean that they have to do it. I fir example don't want bottom surgery because I don't want skin from other parts of my body to be used as a penis.
3, why do people even care about what's in your pants?

I am over 14 yrs post op but there was a time when i hadn't done barely one thing except for in my mind. I was still a transsexual then. Some will never do anything because of health etc etc but that makes them no less a TS

Quote from: Realdimensionaltggirlhere on September 03, 2012, 10:53:11 AM
That is just silly. You are not transsexual if you do not want the sex change. You are either genderqueer or just transgender. Transgender= intersex indivduals, transsexuals, and qenderqueers.

So if someone is "just transgender," he or she CAN be a transsexual.

To me, it seems pretty presumptuous to tell other people what they are. And I should point out that telling people here that they are not real transsexuals (if they don't want "the sex change") is against the Terms of Service. We are not allowed to tell others that they are less legitimate.

ETA:

Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

Quote from: Arch on March 01, 2012, 02:42:07 PM
I've seen all sorts of insensitive and bigoted and ignorant behavior inside the queer bubble. I've seen bigotry against a trans guy (not me) who came to the gay men's group and wasn't "passing." They called him "she." I'm quite certain that some of the men in my gay group would shun me if they knew my history. Some wouldn't care what I've done to my body. Some wouldn't care if I had equipment that rivals theirs. No matter what, they would see me as a liar or an impostor or both.

Inside the trans community, I've been attacked for not telling every person I meet that I am trans, for not being openly trans (without telling absolutely everyone), for not being an activist, for missing trans events, for being gay and not straight, for being gay rather than pansexual or bisexual, for having issues with women, for spending most of my time with cisgender men, for not wanting to consider sexual relationships with trans men, for wanting sexual relationships with guys who have typical penises, for being interested in bottom surgery, for not being interested in bottom surgery, for not being in touch with my "female history/side," and for feeling solidly male rather than identifying as trans or non-binary or genderqueer.

I think you'll find more than one contradiction in that mess. Why people can't just let me be who I am, I'll never know. I have a hard enough time with self-acceptance without everybody else's judgments piled on top of that.

At first, I didn't want bottom surgery. I came out back in the days when Lou Sullivan's FTM book was a key resource, and I saw the pictures. I heard the stories of failed surgeries, deformed results, infections, fissures, and multiple revisions. And I knew that my partner wouldn't be cool with bottom surgery.

I'm out of that relationship now. I still don't know whether I want bottom surgery. I don't heal well, I'm prone to infection, and, quite frankly, I don't have the cash. If I did have the money, I wouldn't spend it on surgery. Not in this economy.

I've had my big soulmate relationship and don't expect another, so I'm not expecting anyone else to see my downstairs bits. I pack, and it helps. Do I want a typical penis, or something closer to a typical penis? Yes, I do. But that doesn't mean I want one of the current surgical options, and it doesn't mean I can afford it. Do I have dysphoria about that part of my body? Absolutely. Every damned day, and I wish I didn't.

And I have a couple of close trans friends who say they do not want bottom surgery, ever. Maybe they'll change their minds. Maybe not. What the f*** do I care? What business is it of mine? They are my friends, they are boys, they live as men (as I do), and they have some peace with the lower part of their bodies. That's a damn sight better than where I am. The way I fight and struggle and hold onto things, I may never be at peace. But my ambivalence about bottom surgery has nothing to do with you, and it's really none of your business.

Yeah, gay men can be a bit...ehh when it comes to ftms. Most of them are totally cool with mtf's (they think cause we get to enjoy straight men  ) , but many wouldn't date ftm's and how can you blame them? Even if an ftm has had bottom surgery it still doesn't look quite *natural* where mtf's can be post-op and it wouldn't be evident.

It was disrespectful to call that ftm "she" though.

Quote from: SilentOwls on September 03, 2012, 03:46:03 PM
Yeah, gay men can be a bit...ehh when it comes to ftms. Most of them are totally cool with mtf's (they think cause we get to enjoy straight men  ) , but many wouldn't date ftm's and how can you blame them? Even if an ftm has had bottom surgery it still doesn't look quite *natural* where mtf's can be post-op and it wouldn't be evident.

It was disrespectful to call that ftm "she" though.

Can you just not come to the ftm board and say messed up things about our surgeries?  Thanks.

Quote from: Andy8715 on September 03, 2012, 03:59:34 PM
Can you just not come to the ftm board and say messed up things about our surgeries?  Thanks.

Sorry, but a lot of *biological* men (note that I didn't say all)are highly visual creatures and know what they want and ftm surgery is not there *YET* (I'm sure someday it will be) and neither is MTF surgery (in terms of depth and *feel* things like a uterus the surgery leaves something to be desired.)