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Living as a "man"

Started by sophia001, September 05, 2012, 02:37:17 PM

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sophia001

I've been thinking today of my experience of living as "one of the guys" and realised that I've never actually felt like one of them, and very rarely been accepted as one if I'm honest with myself.

The offensive sexist humour, constant displays of covert or overt dominance, very little emotion, no real support. I've always felt like I've had to fit in and take part in these kinds of exchanges but at the same time it's felt so un-natural. It's at the point where I'm mostly 'shut down' from social interactions in my office - I know I can be like this with effort but I also know it's not me.

But I also know that I've very little experience of being around girls and women growing up - never really fit in there because I was a boy. Now, in the IT field as an adult (I don't want to say man) there's very few women to actually talk to and engage with. It worries me that if I did transition I wouldn't have that experience of socialising as a woman. How do you figure that stuff out?

I'd be curious to hear about other peoples experiences growing up and socialising as a male
*sigh* don't know where I'm going with this really... just venting I think :(

Soph
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suzifrommd

Opposite for me. As an adult, my friends were always women. When I had male friends, the friendship was strange and unsatisfying. What I've noticed, in case it helps:
* Many (but not all) women are willing to be vulnerable in friendships, and let you see things about themselves that they are not proud of. I have met no men who will do this.
* Many women will be forthcoming about how they feel about the friendship. Men tend not to, and when they do, they tend to make a joke about it.
* Male friendships tend to center more often around shared activities. When they talk in groups, it's about politics, sports, etc. Women are more likely to talk about themselves and their lives and be interested in other people's.
* I see a lot of women giving each other support, complimenting looks, clothing, accessories, etc. I don't remember ever seeing men do that.
* Women expect each other (though they don't always do this) to be interested in one another's thoughts, ideas, and opinions. There seems to be less of an expectation of that among men.

Of course there is lots of variation and millions of women that relate more like men do (but probably fewer men outside of the MTF board that relate the way women do).

Hope these help.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Kelly J. P.

 I never fit in with guys or girls, at any particular point in time. I'm quite socially inept, in my experience, so I'm sure it's a problem with me as opposed to anything else.

In light of this, I just tend to avoid meaningful human interaction. If you don't find that you can get along with members of either sex, it may end up being a similar situation for you... and while it would be good if you could avoid it, it's noteworthy that not everyone needs (many) friends in their life.


... However, I can relate with a few people. Males or females, it doesn't really matter - just those that are willing to have meaningful conversation in a one-on-one scenario. These people are mostly older individuals (30+), so there's often a world of difference between us, but it can work out well. Males in these sorts of relationships thwart the stereotypes listed by agfrommd, for the most part, as those qualities are necessary - in my opinion - to a genuine friendship.

So, I guess it's good when there are those rare genuine people who actually do care. Sex doesn't seem to matter, though people only really open up in certain circumstances. 
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JoanneB

I never really cared much for being around boys, and later guys. So much about them was so against how I felt inside. Yet, as a "guy" I had to fake it. Basically try to be a chemeleon.

After I finished uni and was out on my own the friends I made around the workplace were almost exclusively female. It wasn't planned, just worked out that way somehow  ???  Over time I have drifted away from al of my old male friends and don't really have any new ones. Having recently moved 350 miles away I have made just a few aquaintaces, few few like 2-3 where I work. Being a fairly old married guy in a rural area, having or trying to make new female friends might not be a good idea. (Especially if your lingerie is sexier then theirs) My dearest new friends are all from the TG I found.

Recently I found myself at work in the thick of several guys for hours on end. It is amazing how much they annoy me with all the crass sexist humor. Or going on and on about the minutia of their motorcycles. It times like those that remind me I don't stand a chance of transitioning to full-time while working there.  :(
.          (Pile Driver)  
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Stranger

Quote from: agfrommd on September 05, 2012, 03:14:49 PM
Opposite for me. As an adult, my friends were always women. When I had male friends, the friendship was strange and unsatisfying. What I've noticed, in case it helps:
* Many (but not all) women are willing to be vulnerable in friendships, and let you see things about themselves that they are not proud of. I have met no men who will do this.
* Many women will be forthcoming about how they feel about the friendship. Men tend not to, and when they do, they tend to make a joke about it.
* Male friendships tend to center more often around shared activities. When they talk in groups, it's about politics, sports, etc. Women are more likely to talk about themselves and their lives and be interested in other people's.
* I see a lot of women giving each other support, complimenting looks, clothing, accessories, etc. I don't remember ever seeing men do that.
* Women expect each other (though they don't always do this) to be interested in one another's thoughts, ideas, and opinions. There seems to be less of an expectation of that among men.

I think I'd go so far as to suggest that many men, trans- or not, are "faking it" around other men.

To explain, your list seems true to my experience as well. For that reason, since I've left high school (bullying tends to enforce gender segregation, and teenage girls aren't exactly representatives of sensitivity and empathy themselves), my close friendships have overwhelmingly been female. But it's not been a deliberate decision to seek female friendships first, and when you get men out of the male social circle, they tend to open up and the stereotypes rapidly break down. There are a lot of sensitive men out there: they're just afraid to show.

Nonetheless, it's a pervasive system. I find it incredibly hard to make and keep male friendships simply because I don't do any of the standard male social activities - I don't even drink! - whereas women just want to talk. Now that I can do.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Stranger on September 05, 2012, 07:00:09 PM
I think I'd go so far as to suggest that many men, trans- or not, are "faking it" around other men.

I've thought that most of my life, generally because I was faking it too. As part of my exploration, I tried to watch and understand, and I've come to a different conclusion.

I think men like being the way they are. It's simpler for them. Men usually don't put up with social pressure to be different from who they are, are generally less responsive to social expectations than women are. Yet we see no major complaint from cis males about feeling like they need to be that way. They complain about everything else, taxes, the government, the way their wives nag them, their bosses/jobs, kids these days, the things they don't make the way they used to, etc. But you don't hear them complaining about having to fake it. I think for most cis men, they genuinely want to be that way.

Just my theory.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Stranger

Maybe. "Many" is probably too optimistic. I personally have heard men complaining about it, and many of the men I grew up around (including my father) have been quiet, reflective personalities, not prone to complaining or crudity for that matter. Perhaps it's because I've spent much of my adult life in academia - male academics are generally much more sensitive to issues of gender, and more likely to be critical of themselves. That said, get them into an entirely male social setting, and somehow the dynamic changes back along more stereotypical lines.

I've known a lot of "metrosexual" guys (I hate that term, but that's another story) living in cities like Melbourne, who don't identify in any way as transgender, but who griped about at society that deems them to be somehow less manly because they're willing to moisturise and accessorise. I've known men, often in alternative music and art scenes, who would complain about how they should be able to express emotion as freely as women: to hug and kiss other men, to compliment one another, to cry when they're overwhelmed. None of these people ever felt female, just like thwarted males. Inner city men are hardly representative (I grew up in the country myself), but they're still men.

I like to believe, I guess, that we're an emotionally complex species that has an unfortunate habit of setting itself simple rules about emotional expression.
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Joann

I had pretty much the same experiences that everyone else has mentioned but found that at work it was easier to interact with woman rather than men.
When i talked with men i would start off very reserved but then get more and more passionate about whatever the topic was to the point i would reach out to touch them
"Dude... take it easy. Why are you telling me this?"

I never liked the coarse humor, womanizing and constant competitiveness that men have or the pride that some men take in being 130 lbs overweight, greasy hair, male cleavage, and smell of antifreeze and urine.

Dating  was another issue. Grils would say
"you're a really nice guy but you're just not manly"

I was a  faker too but not a good one. i practised deepening my voice, putting on a "I'm a tough cool guy" man scowl. Lifted weights (with 0 results though i thought i was badass strong).
Martial arts, carefully chosen after shave, I even reviewed the sports news so i could chat with the guys even though I hate jock sports esp football (american).
As none of this worked and i started becoming more and more shy to the point where if i did say anything people were shocked i chimed in at all.
Things are different now. I thought i could make friends with anybody but the truth is they can't make friends with me Because i'm a Fem, Queer, girly boy by their perceptions. Now i just might Explain to them how narrow their perception of people are.
Ill save my friendship for those who appreciate it.
♪♫ You dont look different but you have changed...
I'm looking through you,. Your not the same ♪♫ :)
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cvetoslava

Quote from: Joann on September 06, 2012, 07:19:28 AM


Dating  was another issue. Grils would say
"you're a really nice guy but you're just not manly"


In my case, They ignored me. The testosterone scent was also missing due to hormonal imbalance.
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Joann

Quote from: cvetoslava on September 06, 2012, 07:36:48 AM
In my case, They ignored me. The testosterone scent was also missing due to hormonal imbalance.

Yes,  life long low T = no body hair, no pheromones, different self image all led to the big brush off too.
♪♫ You dont look different but you have changed...
I'm looking through you,. Your not the same ♪♫ :)
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PHXGiRL

Well my experience as growing up a man was challenging at times I remember back in high school trying to fit in with the guys in the neighborhood and I never felt like one of them ever. They would find it fun to go fight with other guys, social drink, compete for alpha male in the pack and pick up girls at the mall. Which I never fit into which lead me to locking myself in my bedroom a lot of weekends growing up and pretending to be sick or busy with other things when my friends came over.

Ever since high school it evolved to not wanting to go out and socialize outside of work with my guy friends and if I do I have to get completely hammered just to get my mind to stop racing. To get my mind to stop thinking about how I walk, talk, and act.

I work in a very male dominant work environment which is auto motive sales. A lot of the guys at work are pigs wait... Let me reword that they are all pigs.. And I have a hard time fitting in at work anymore as well the further I go down my transition path. Pretty girls come into the store and the guys immediately "stalk", "hound", and make sexual comments about them while their in the store. Outside of ear distance of course of the customer  it is overwhelming for me a lot of the times and I have to step away. I deal with a lot of my co-workers telling me "I should hit that", I should go after that" since they all know I'm single. I tell them I'm not interested in playing the "dating" game and they always say who says anything about "dating". So in conclusion it's very tough being around guys and I can't wait to separate myself completely from this .
Now on the other side since starting my transition I've gained a lot of female friends and it's the complete opposite and I know I'm the right side.  I have a co worker and her and I chit chat alot and she knows about me and we talk about a lot of other things other then sex, sex, sex which always appears to be on the mind of every male I've encountered  in my life. Don't get me wrong her and I have had our share of conversations about hot guys but it's no where along the lines of what "boys" say.

Female/female friendship I've found are more special & caring. There is a lot more caring about each other involved.  Ive gone on lunch dates with girlfriends and we just chit chat about life. Its wonderful. The girlfriends I've gained so far we have each others backs and we tell one another we love each each other often and lean on each other when we have rough times. It's hard to put into words because it's feelings for me at least.

I love it though because there is no pressure to go to the next base with women  like I've always had to feel when hanging out with guy friends is just friendships. :)


So yeah living as a man on the outside sucks! I only have a few more months of it thank god.
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