Hi, I just wanted to ask what is it with Christian religions believing God hates transexuals? This is really bothering me because I am a Mormon and while I do believe my religion's basis and founding is true (that the founder, Joseph Smith, did indeed see God and his son, and did, indeed, restore the true gospel.) things like the churches policy against gender reassignment surgery and their intolerance for homosexuality, lead me to believe that the modern leaders of the Latter Day Saints... might not be true prophets of God, as they claim (I believe that Joseph Smith was... but after that I have to wonder...). I know what I have, better than those men who speak up on that podium... and its not a simple sexual fancy. Its a physical defect, plain and simple. saying that a transexual who undergos sex reassignment surgery is a sinner is like saying a person that goes through laser surgery to treat their blindness is going to hell.

The main reason this bothers me a lot is because I love both God and Jesus, and I do believe that my religion is true... but do not believe that God would punish a person (apparently church policy is that they will not let you marry if you get the surgery... -_-) for correcting a disorder they where born with and being true to themselves and to others. As far as I see it now, I'm just decieving myself and my fellow church members by being a "male" on sundays. I am a female holding the priesthood, which is only supposed to go to males, and I can't stand it!

As far as their reasoning behind the policy... I can understand it... but only to a certain extent. God did indeed command us to repopulate the earth... but wouldn't he be just as happy if I got married and then adopted children, who would be without parents elsewise? And what of all those people who have not been blessed with a spouse and die single... Are they going to be punished in the afterlife because they did help repopulate the earth? I think not. As far as I see it, God loves all... and its just the churches who discriminate.

Sorry for ranting... Its just this has been bothering me for a while... and I was hoping to discuss it with other Trangendered Christians (or even better: other Transgendered Mormons). I also consider myself Gay (that is I like other females) so theres conflict with the church there aswell, when I do go ahead and get sex reassignment surgery done.

Chandra, I was Mormon too. I grew up in the Salt Lake City area, went on a mission, married in the temple, and had children. They excommunicated me for going into a women's restroom at work after going "full time". No kidding.  I was the only one to have ever used that particular restroom too. It was on a floor of a new building that hadn't been leased out yet.

As for the answer why?  If you are studious, check out the references in the Holy Bible about "eunuchs".  That's what they called us in Biblical times.  Don't let your church leaders in on the secret. You'll get them all confused and it might squish their testimonies.

This is a favorite of mine from Daniel chapter 1 about 4 eunuchs:

QuoteAnd in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.

They loved eunuchs back then.  Not so much now.

Here's another oldie but goodie from Mathew chapter 19:

QuoteFor there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Tell them that you want to be a eunuch.  And when that's done, let them in on the skirt secret.

Yeah.. right... like that's gonna work!

I'd be happy to answer any questions for you.  I also wrote my story and published it last year.

Cindi

there will always be people who try to validate their own choices by questioning you for making different choices.  some you can talk to, some it's best to just ignore because try as you may you will not rescue them from their mental blocks nor squeeze from their mental prisons an ounce of understanding. tsk tsk tsk

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 16, 2007, 01:29:08 AM
Chandra, I was Mormon too. I grew up in the Salt Lake City area, went on a mission, married in the temple, and had children. They excommunicated me for going into a women's restroom at work after going "full time". No kidding.  I was the only one to have ever used that particular restroom too. It was on a floor of a new building that hadn't been leased out yet.

As for the answer why?  If you are studious, check out the references in the Holy Bible about "eunuchs".  That's what they called us in Biblical times.  Don't let your church leaders in on the secret. You'll get them all confused and it might squish their testimonies.

This is a favorite of mine from Daniel chapter 1 about 4 eunuchs:

QuoteAnd in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.

They loved eunuchs back then.  Not so much now.

Here's another oldie but goodie from Mathew chapter 19:

QuoteFor there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Tell them that you want to be a eunuch.  And when that's done, let them in on the skirt secret.

Yeah.. right... like that's gonna work!

I'd be happy to answer any questions for you.  I also wrote my story and published it last year.

Cindi

Excommunicated for that? Sounds pretty silly in my opinion... I mean its not like it really hurt anyone.

I would like to know... Will the church Excommunicate me for getting Sex Reasignment Surgery? If they do, I don't care much. Its not the real church if it punishes people for becoming their true selves. I believe in the religion, not in the orginization formed around the religion. Like I said in my last post, I still have doubts that Bringham Young and those who succeeded him where truly prophets... especially since I read up that there was a dispute over who would succeed Joseph Smith (and theres some things Bringham Young did and said while president that i just don't trust). As far as I see it Joseph Smith restored the truth, not Bringham Young or Gordan B Hinkley (or any of the other church presidents). I'm not to sure how much you agree with the church after being excommunicated... but this is how i've been feeling, personally, about it. I would rather not be excommunicated, since i feel going to church on Sunday is spiritually uplifting, but I want to become my true self. So even if they give me the boot... I'm going to go ahead with Hormone Therapy and Surgery. I can always read the Bible, Book of Mormon and D&C at home if they won't welcome me in the "house of the lord"

Which leads me to another question... do you still believe in the basics of the religion (book of mormon, word of wisdom, etc.) even after being excommunicated? I'm just curious.

The official stance from church authorities is that excommunication is mandated once you have surgery.  That is the ONLY mention of transsexualism in the church documents.  However, local authorities can and do speed up the process at their discretion.  Hinkley has been a bit softer on gays and transsexuals than his predecessors.

I did truly believe in "the Church" when I was excommunicated and that act was devastating in my life.  But I've done just a little research since then... it doesn't take much to make that house of cards fall. I invite you to research the translation of the Book of Abraham by Smith.  He actually copied the drawings from the apocrypha into the printed version of the official church scripture. Get out your Pearl of Great Price and thumb through the pages to find them. Now these apocrypha still exist and have been translated by well known Egyptologists.  They are not the book of Abraham. They are funerary documents for a relatively minor government official.  It's all online.  A professor and Egyptologist at BYU who correctly transltated these documents was threatened with his membership if he didn't recant.  He recanted.  Take a look at the pictures.  See the little pictures of containers for the organs of the deceased?  Even those of us who watch the History Channel now know what those containers are.  But Joseph Smith didn't know that.

Also, if you can get into the church history, read the "School of the Prophets" lessons that Smith wrote.  His concepts of the godhead are interesting in the beginning..... that doctrinal foundation of the church changed significantly in the early years.

Have you read the Book of Mormon?  I mean really read it?  Have you noticed how Isaiah is copied word for word?  Have you noticed that there is no possible way that archeological evidence supports anything in that book?

Okay.. I could go on for days about obvious problems with the Mormon doctrines.  And I do not want to discourage anyone in their faith or make light of it.  But I was always taught that "the Church" was true, that it was led by a prophet of god.  In other words, it is perfect.  And if you can find merely one tenant that is obviously false, the entire structure is rotton in my book.

It took me a long time to recover from being rejected.  I was a cultist member.  Some people regard the Mormon church as a cult.  I don't think that it is quite a cult.  It could easily be one with just a few changes, but in its current state it is not.  It does however create cultists in its membership.  And I was one.  Without it, I felt I was going to die.

But with my expulsion, my life has become free. I can't believe how strong those bonds were. I can't believe how they affected my life in a negative way.  I've since been able to pursue my life in a very positive way.  I am totally free without those encumbrances to live a happy life without feeling guilty.

Chin up!

Cindi

As for it being contradictory. I wouldn't say it's necessarily contradictory, but it may be contradictory to a specific church/temple doctrine. This is a common theme, only because you have to understand the majority of this planet's religions evolved in a time where there wasn't science and other means to attest to the validity of such things as the transsexual condition, so their doctrines formed in opposition accordingly, in ignorance and fear of what its founders could not grasp. As our species has seen, religions can and do change with new knowledge, new information. Today, the concept of anti-mixed racial marriages are not even in the mainstream doctrine of Christian churches (Catholic or otherwise). Basically, it means it takes time for religions to update themselves, they're like old programs, slow to change and slower to integrate with new standards. It's best to find a church that has updated its doctrine to fit the facts, you'll be better accepted and it'll probably be a funner church too in regards to other activities.

-- Brede

    Is it possible for some disenfranchised Mormons to break from the main church and create their own updated and more inclusive sect? Isn't that how Protestantism come from catholicism?

    Just a thought.

   The church I go to is all inclusive, you can be of any denomination or belief and still be welcomed. We believe in science and the progress of humanity and it is all pulled together by Love. We don't talk around issues either. Dissent is actually encouraged because you cannot have a strong community if you don't allow all ideas to be considered.

   I'm not trying to convert you. Just show you that it's possible to build a nice community where people can be safe.

I knew an mtf TS that was a Mormon, many years ago. I haven't talked to her since, but she was still active within the Church to my knowledge, and they were none the wiser to her presence.

-- Brede

... and yet there is a fundamental flaw with following a faith that contradicts your very existence.  I can't tell you the horrible struggle it is to live with yourself if you actually believe the doctrines.

I agree that if you have a real need to exercise your faith, it behooves you to find something that will uplift you and give your life worth instead of ripping it apart.

When I lived in Salt Lake City, I attended the MCC where I was welcomed with open arms. They helped me so much in a time of my life where I was beaten down and ready to leave this life.  They were so kind and accepting.  When I moved to California, I did seek out the local chapter but the connection was not there.  You just need to find that space where you are comfortable.

But no matter what... don't feel guilty!  Guilt will ruin your life. There is nothing godly about making someone feel worthless through guilt.

Cindi

They say that God is neither male nor female. If humans are made in God's image, maybe he created men in female bodies and women in male bodies to reflect this.
No matter what your faith, you know who you are, and you know it is right to be true to yourself, despite what others say.

I've tried to stay out of this and for the most part will.  I am not a Mormon.  LDS doctrine baffles me.  But I am a Christian.  Must these two contardict?  My own opinion of them is that they wouldn't if people would learn to read the Bible for themselves, rather than see it through centuries of cultural mininterpretation.  Cindi has already given you two applicable quotes.  My personal favorite is found in Acts 8:27f where an Ethiopian eunuch is received in full fellowship into the church and is baptized.  Kind of hard to get around that story for me. 

Kristi

They are not mutually exclusive. They could not rationally be.

In many parts of the Bible they say you go to Hell for murder. But in other parts of the Bible God forgives someone for murder. People make many choices with their lives, but the one single thing that is unforgivable in the Bible is: blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Not like 'oh my God' but something worse. Not sure what exactly but you get the gist of it. So technically from scripture, there it is: you don't go to hell for being a transsexual.

So I wonder what constitutes blasphemy against the Holy Ghost?

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 16, 2007, 11:55:00 PM
So I wonder what constitutes blasphemy against the Holy Ghost?

Cindi

To my knowledge, most scholars, not all, think it's disbelief in God. So being an atheist is the ultimate sin by most church's doctrines. Again, most, not all.

-- Brede

Thank you for your responses, everyone. I'm actually have begun to question my religion, and at the moment I feel that maybe I should just have a personal relationship with the lord, instead of putting my faith in a church or in the words of men or the words of a book. I believe that God is within my heart, and because of that I must follow my heart to know what is right. And my heart is indeed telling me that there is nothing wrong with the fact that I am a transexual.

Besides there where many things in my church, other than this, that bothered me... like the fact that women are treated as if they are inferior to men, and that black people where not allowd to hold priesthood until 1978. These things just don't seam right to me, especially since God loves all his children equally... and for the longest time I tried to come up with Illogical reasons for them... I guess when it all boils down there is one logical reason for these things: Mormonism is not of God.

On the bright side, the Book of Mormon is a pretty good novel. ^_^

Chandra,

Basically, that's what I had to do.  I could not reconcile the fact that I knew I was a good person but was being accused of commiting a sin second only to murder. It made no sense to me. 

My best to you.  I hope you can get it all sorted out, break the bonds of guilt, and live free of all that.

Chin up!

Cindi

Quote from: shiva on May 16, 2007, 11:47:05 PM
In many parts of the Bible they say you go to Hell for murder. But in other parts of the Bible God forgives someone for murder. People make many choices with their lives, but the one single thing that is unforgivable in the Bible is: blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Not like 'oh my God' but something worse. Not sure what exactly but you get the gist of it. So technically from scripture, there it is: you don't go to hell for being a transsexual.

However, you are more likely to go to hell if you are a transsexual and are wearing ugly shoes.

I am a Christian, transgendered and a crossdresser. God still loves me and cares for me. He is interested in my heart, not my gender, possessions, or looks. My testimony is on the website listed below. Click 'What's New', then click 'Transgender and A Christian'. Feel free to comment on it and ask questions.

Gennee

Website: www.epistle.us

God hates whatever you hate.  That's how it works for most "Christians".

~ Blair