Quote from: Zombies on May 17, 2007, 12:43:27 PM
My god hates New Jersey

Um... I like cheese. :3

-- Brede

My God hates me getting up in the morning.

My God hates cruelty to animals and capital punishment.

Now you're all getting it down pat.  Keep this up, and we'll have a dozen new religions by tomorrow.

~ Blair

Quote from: Blair on May 17, 2007, 01:16:37 PM
Now you're all getting it down pat.  Keep this up, and we'll have a dozen new religions by tomorrow.

~ Blair

And to all, I say, forget creating a dozen new religions. We shall all worship Blair!!!

(huzzah,  huzzah!)

Quote from: Chandra21 on May 16, 2007, 01:23:39 AM
As far as their reasoning behind the policy... I can understand it... but only to a certain extent. God did indeed command us to repopulate the earth... but wouldn't he be just as happy if I got married and then adopted children, who would be without parents elsewise? And what of all those people who have not been blessed with a spouse and die single... Are they going to be punished in the afterlife because they did help repopulate the earth? I think not. As far as I see it, God loves all... and its just the churches who discriminate.

I am not TS, I am a Christian.

Here is what I believe, it's really pretty simple.

God created ALL of us with all of our imperfections, flaws, discrepencies, weaknesses, defects, illnesses, deformities and so on...I believe there is a reason for everything and it is not up to me to know all those reasons. That my job on this earth is to live my life according to His Word as best I can and that that alone is according to His plan for me.

I believe I was born imperfect on purpose. If I were born perfect I would have no basis for comparison with others. If you were born perfect, I would have no compassion for imperfection. If I have no basis for comparison and have no compassion for differences then I could never understand. Understanding I believe is what love truly is all about and our purpose here is to find that love.

Churches et all teach about love with strings attatched. Love has no strings because love is not a puppet. It is a truth that is inside us all.

My god loves all of you.  Unconditionally.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 17, 2007, 01:21:03 PM
My god loves all of you.  Unconditionally.

Cindi

heh I think we just said exactly the same thing (look up) yet you did it with so fewer words 

Quote from: RebeccaFog on May 17, 2007, 01:19:51 PM

And to all, I say, forget creating a dozen new religions. We shall all worship Blair!!!

(huzzah,  huzzah!)

Oh, please! 

...  Don't tempt me.

~ Blair

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 01:23:01 PM

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 17, 2007, 01:21:03 PM
My god loves all of you.  Unconditionally.

Cindi

heh I think we just said exactly the same thing (look up) yet you did it with so fewer words 

When I posted, you had just posted your response.  I hadn't read it before mine went up.

If God loves unconditionally, then does God love evil? I mean it as a logic question.

if P <-> Q, being that's really the definition of the unconditional part, so P -> Q wouldn't be necessary.

So lemme make this into a predicate calculus form for the sake of simplicity... P(x) = "God loves X, unconditionally."
Since I can't figure out an ASCII code for an upside down A as used in predicate calculus as the qualifier for universal application, I'll use the V instead for simplicity as well.

Vx P(x), translation: For all x, God loves x, unconditionally.

When I was a Christian, I would not have agreed to this point, nor would I today under the premises laid down in Judaic/Christian theology. But that's just me.

-- Brede

Are you a robot?  Seriously?

Unconditional love means complete understanding.  It seems strange to me that someone who believes everyone is born tabula rasa would use a term like "evil".  I would consider evil anything that makes someone feel dead and cold inside (dishonesty, cruelty, selfishness, etc.)

God loves your "evil" people because deep down, they're still that wet, crying baby that they started out as, and just want to be loved.  God is just doing what everyone wishes they could do, and will do, someday.

~ Blair

Let's bring it to terms with which we are a bit more familiar.  Could you not love your child, regardless of what your child had done?  Would you not have heartache for her torment if she had GID?  Would you not rent your very soul if he committed murder?  

Assuming that a god did create us. Would his/her capacity to love be less than our own?

When I imagine what god may be, I think of a loving parent who wants only the best for his/her creation and children.  And I call that unconditional love.  Now, this is not a belief, it is a product of my own desires.  The logic is mine based on my emotions and the few remnants of faith I have left.

The truth of love is in the expression, compassion and charity spread by people who have great caring for human kind.  You can't measure it, quantify it, or calculate it. But you will know it when you see it.

Cindi

Quote from: Blair on May 17, 2007, 01:33:31 PM
Are you a robot?  Seriously?

ORLY? :3

QuoteUnconditional love means complete understanding.

So I can understand why something is evil? That really seems weird, just my view on that.

QuoteIt seems strange to me that someone who believes everyone is born tabula rasa would use a term like "evil".

Not really, because nothing is ever arbitrary, especially ethics. Just like mathematics, there's a right way and there's a wrong way in doing things. Sometimes it's hard to see when that opens up to us to see, but it's there none the less. But one must always parse an error in knowledge from an error in morality. One is from ignorance and the other is from willfulness.   

QuoteI would consider evil anything that makes someone feel dead and cold inside (dishonesty, cruelty, selfishness, etc.)

Selfishness doesn't make one cold or dead. Plus, this definition of evil makes evil subjective. Killing jews made Hitler and the Nazis feel happy. The iron fist rule of Mao made some feel good because they "had a purpose." And so on. By this definition evil can be good sometimes.

Where as if evil is defined as simply anything that destroys one's life such that it's against one's will as a choice, then evil is not good, ever. I prefer this definition, above all the other ones I've seen, for the fact that it doesn't make self-inflicted harm an evil, nor does it make morally neutral positions immoral, and it doesn't make anyone obligated to be a sacrificial lamb to others to prevent/stop evil. It's probably the most liberal (classical and modern) definition of evil I've seen so far. So I'll stick with it, but I'm open to a better one if anyone is willing to point me to it.

QuoteGod loves your "evil" people because deep down, they're still that wet, crying baby that they started out as, and just want to be loved.  God is just doing what everyone wishes they could do, and will do, someday.

No, not really. That baby is gone with the first thought it grasps. It's pure innocence, so it's simply the state of being purely ignorant of something. You can be generally innocent as we see everyday in our lives, but not purely innocent. So, consider all the bad folks in history: Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, and so on. These folks have done great evils when they were on Earth, and to say anyone could forgive them in whole is mistaken. I doubt any jew will ever forgive Hitler. I doubt any lover of ancient Chinese culture will forgive Mao, nor any teacher ("Kill all the teachers..." Mao's little red book) for that matter. Nor will the nearly countless people slaughtered or maimed by Pol Pot. Evil of this kind cannot be taken back, and the loss from it will never be fully restored. As much as I am a fan of mercy and compassion, there are exceptions and great evil, true evil is the only exception. Ignorance, honest admissions of guilt, and honest restitution are all acceptable means to forgiveness. Hell, I can even forgive a transphobic person for being one, when they recognize how stupid his/her position is wrong.

But that's just me.


-- Brede

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 17, 2007, 01:43:29 PM
Let's bring it to terms with which we are a bit more familiar.  Could you not love your child, regardless of what your child had done?  Would you not have heartache for her torment if she had GID?  Would you not rent your very soul if he committed murder?  

Assuming that a god did create us. Would his/her capacity to love be less than our own?

When I imagine what god may be, I think of a loving parent who wants only the best for his/her creation and children.  And I call that unconditional love.  Now, this is not a belief, it is a product of my own desires.  The logic is mine based on my emotions and the few remnants of faith I have left.

The truth of love is in the expression, compassion and charity spread by people who have great caring for human kind.

Cindi

To love another human is to love yourself, I believe.

I concluded some time ago that love is a species-wide survival instinct; without it, we die.  There has to be a certain irrationality when it comes to the preservation of human life.  We have to be irrationally disturbed when children are hurt, or when others are being tortured.  We have to vomit when we see dismembered body parts.

To desensitize these instincts is to basically say, "Killing other people is okay."  Progress, right?  In which direction?

~ Blair

QuoteAssuming that a god did create us. Would his/her capacity to love be less than our own?

But doesn't that mean God has a limit on its love? I mean we all do. I doubt I could love anyone that raped me. Or love someone that nearly killed me. I can't say you would think the same way, but I know that in general you would probably have a hard time trying to find anything to like about someone who would do such evil to you, or others for that matter.

QuoteThe truth of love is in the expression, compassion and charity spread by people who have great caring for human kind.  You can't measure it, quantify it, or calculate it. But you will know it when you see it.

I would argue you can measure it by the fact you can contrast it against other states of being. Love for example, is the identification or valuation of something. I love my freedom, because it is of great value to me. I love my mom, because she is a great person of value to me. And so on. These may not have physical quantities but they do have quantities of measure. And that's why we can say, I love you. Or I don't like what you did to me. Or I forgive you. These are all states, which our mind has to measure as to know when to 'do' them, or react to them. Either in recognition or as a means to act.

-- Brede

Thank you for that, Brede.

I especially liked the part about how killing the Jews made Hitler and the Nazis "happy".  Yes, I'm sure that's what it was.  Happy is the word.  I had to laugh at that.

Yes Brede.  It is just you.

~ Blair

Quote from: Blair on May 17, 2007, 01:51:54 PM
Thank you for that, Brede.

I especially liked the part about how killing the Jews made Hitler and the Nazis "happy".  Yes, I'm sure that's what it was.  Happy is the word.  I had to laugh at that.

Yes Brede.  It is just you.

~ Blair

No, you have to prove it so. Saying things are so, don't work for logic nor science.

You say, evil is what makes people cold or 'dead' inside. Some people, serial killers, feel 'alive' when they murder other people. Is it acceptable then?

Consider your ideas critically, because that's the problem here. You're making nicely worded phrases, but when one critically examines them, they don't hold up to reason. It's very dangerous to leave hanging 'threads' as it were.

-- Brede

Quote from: Attis on May 17, 2007, 01:46:59 PM

Quote from: Blair on May 17, 2007, 01:33:31 PM

QuoteUnconditional love means complete understanding.

So I can understand why something is evil? That really seems weird, just my view on that.

I'm going to ignore the fun bickering for the moment and address an important and over looked part of this post...namely...

'How do you insult the Holy Ghost?'

Call it a load of hot air, obviously.