Susan's Place Logo

News:

According to Google Analytics 25,259,719 users made visits accounting for 140,758,117 Pageviews since December 2006

Main Menu

Excerpt Berger's Way of Seeing... Agree?

Started by UCBerkeleyPostop, September 16, 2012, 04:38:03 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Carlita

That's a very interesting piece, Berkeley girl! Tho there are a couple of things you might bear in mind. First UC Berkeley is 20 places below Cambridge University, my own alma mater, in this American ranking of the world's top colleges ...

http://www.usnews.com/education/worlds-best-universities-rankings/top-400-universities-in-the-world

Sorry, couldn't resist that!  >:-)

And second, while it's absolutely true that women's perception of themselves as what one might call "seen objects" is still absolutely central to their existence, Berger was writing 40 years ago, when the women's movement was till in its relative infancy and before the massive shift in social and economic status towards women in the western world. Simple example: when he wrote Ways of Seeing, women comprised less than 40% of the students at British and US colleges. Now they are more than 60% and are similarly the majority of entrants into, eg, the legal, medical and accounting professions. That makes a HUGE difference to the way they are seen in the world.

All that said, there is absolutely no denying Berger's central point that women are looked at and judged - by one another as much as men - in a completely different way to men. I often wonder whether the sense of being 'clocked', or 'outed' that concerns transitioning MtFs so much may not have nearly as much to do with not passing as they fear, but simply that they are, for the first time in their lives, coming under the scrutiny that women take for granted.

It's also worth noting how strange it is for women when that scrutiny stops as they get older and they become 'invisible'. My mother was an ardent feminist and very successful in her chosen profession. Sh was no fan of wolf-whistling men ... but when she found herself being ignored in the street she was surprised to discove r that it was deeply disturbing to her. She felt like much less of a woman for not being observed ... and I think that experience is quite common.
  •  

tekla

Cambridge is not a public university.  Circle takes the square.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Carlita

Quote from: tekla on September 17, 2012, 07:17:51 AM
Cambridge is not a public university.  Circle takes the square.

Yes. It. Is.

I went there, I should know ...

The status of universities in the UK is not directly comparable to those in the US. But essentially, virtually all our universities would count as public in American terms.

Cambridge University is largely funded by public money, and regulated by the government. When I was there all tuition fees, and even some personal costs were paid by government grants. In recent years, however, government legislation has forced students to pay for tuition at ALL English universities. But (a) those fees are set within limits determined by the government and (b) the cost of those fees is then covered by government-issued loans unless (c) the student comes from a low-income family, in which case the government covers his/her costs.

There are a very few private universities in England that exist completely independently of public money. But Cambridge isn't one of them.

Now, back to John Berger, the way women are seen and matters MtF-related ... !
  •  

Beverly

Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 06:05:45 AM
I often wonder whether the sense of being 'clocked', or 'outed' that concerns transitioning MtFs so much may not have nearly as much to do with not passing as they fear, but simply that they are, for the first time in their lives, coming under the scrutiny that women take for granted.

^^^ this!

BTW I agree with your comments about Cambridge and UK universities. I did my degree in the 80s and my daughter is going to uni next year.
  •  

Carlita

Quote from: brc on September 17, 2012, 08:28:28 AM
^^^ this!

BTW I agree with your comments about Cambridge and UK universities. I did my degree in the 80s and my daughter is going to uni next year.

I'm such an old bat I ENDED my degree course in 1980!!  :) I hope your daughter has a great time ... I have two girls: one still at uni, the other graduated a couple of years ago ... And FWIW I think the way in which politicians who received grants themselves have denied them to the younger generation is utterly scandalous.

Plus, their reasoning is specious. The argument goes that if you get a degree, you will earn more, so paying fees is a good investment.

If that's true, you will also pay a lot more tax that someone who didn't go to university. In which case the government would make a fantastic investment paying for your fees, rather than p*ssing the money away on any of the many total wastes of public money that swallow up tens of billions.

But anyway ...
  •  

Beverly

Carlita - I completely agree. I think that the way the whole system was set up was utterly stupid and over-complex. It was far, far better to leave it as it was. I also agree with your point on tax.

And this old bat is only 6 years behind you (B.Sc. Hons 1986)
  •  

Arch

Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 06:05:45 AM
It's also worth noting how strange it is for women when that scrutiny stops as they get older and they become 'invisible'.

Same thing happens to older guys in gay bars.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
  •  

Ave

Quote from: Arch on September 17, 2012, 08:22:29 PM
Same thing happens to older guys in gay bars.

It's like awesome having someone else aware of the gay male community here ^^.
I can see me
I can see you
Are you me?
Or am I you?
  •  

Arch

Quote from: Ave on September 17, 2012, 08:27:30 PM
It's like awesome having someone else aware of the gay male community here ^^.

Hey, it's the center of the universe!!!
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
  •  

Ave

I can see me
I can see you
Are you me?
Or am I you?
  •  

Arch

Quote from: Ave on September 17, 2012, 08:44:43 PM
oh no, a castro queen!

I wish...I think Tekla's one of the main SF experts around here.

Okay, back on track...Berger, right?

Good luck on your exams, UCBerkeley.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
  •  

Carlita

Quote from: Arch on September 17, 2012, 08:22:29 PM
Same thing happens to older guys in gay bars.

That reminds me of a time, long ago, when I was much younger, skinnier and infinitely prettier haha!... Right out of college I went to work for an architect as his assistant. The architect was gay. I was straight, but felt sure I was TS, even though shrinks kept telling me I wasn't ... so I was taking advantage of the whole glam/new romantic thing to dress and make-up as androgynously as possible.

All this guy's clients were gay and so was his whole social circle and of course they all just took one look at me and assumed I was the architect's new young boyfriend. I'll never forget one time walking into a restaurant with my boss. It was a very gay clientele and when I walked in I could feel all these eyes on me and especially on my crotch. I looked down, thinking, 'Sh*t! My flies must be undone!' Then it struck me, no they were just checking me out. And an instant later: so this is how girls feel when guys check them out. It was, ah ... VERY interesting!
  •  

AbraCadabra

#32
Quote from: Carlita on September 18, 2012, 08:48:45 AM
That reminds me of a time, long ago, when I was much younger, skinnier and infinitely prettier haha!... Right out of college I went to work for an architect as his assistant. The architect was gay. I was straight, but felt sure I was TS, even though shrinks kept telling me I wasn't ... so I was taking advantage of the whole glam/new romantic thing to dress and make-up as androgynously as possible.

All this guy's clients were gay and so was his whole social circle and of course they all just took one look at me and assumed I was the architect's new young boyfriend. I'll never forget one time walking into a restaurant with my boss. It was a very gay clientele and when I walked in I could feel all these eyes on me and especially on my crotch. I looked down, thinking, 'Sh*t! My flies must be undone!' Then it struck me, no they were just checking me out. And an instant later: so this is how girls feel when guys check them out. It was, ah ... VERY interesting!

Well, not sooo long ago a pretty similar situation.
Though after a while, days, months, a year or more the situation changed.

I was told: "You talk the talk - but don't walk the walk..."
Someone obviously had wanted to 'bed' me and I was just being friends...
Now post-op... end of friendship.
Became a non-desirable.

The way it goes,
Axélle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
  •