We're sorry for being self-righteous, judgmental bastards.

[BeverlyAnn]

Julie, I grew up Southern Baptist so I understand what you are saying. I heard many times from the pulpit what a danger all us deviants are and it caused me to not set foot in a church except on rare occasions for about 25 years.  Then a few years ago, I was lucky to find a small church who's mission statement says in part, "a safe place to worship where you can be who God intended you to be."  Needless to say it's been a wonderful experience. 

And as for money, I know of one Southern Baptist church that when you join wants to see your W-2 form so they know how much to expect of you.  And this church already owns something like four blocks in the downtown area of a large city in Florida.

Today you see the religious right bashing people they don't even know. 
Julie

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "The Religious Right is neither."

Bev

[Ricki]

thank you David for your response to my questions.
I think you were very honest and sincere in what you said.  I did not expect an answer (i mean if you are an angel and can provide it lovely ) but in reality i know..
Knowing and dealing are two seperate ends of the ruler.
funny i like what you said about life i refer to a psychologist Dr Friday who set about stating rules for life in his education materials and lectures and one of them states specifically "life is hard-it's supposed to be"..
Well anyway i thank you again and add only this for now:
I do not have nearly the depth of some of the folks here do with Christianity as far as being hurt and the like.
I do not recall awful experiences at church or in sunday school, but as i got older and tried to find my way i would like to think that i have some sort of bond with my God and some sort of relationship (that is not in a house full of people), a very open one.
I do not hesitate to think to him or say to him what i feel and ask for things that i know are probably never going to happen but i do.  It's us.
I have a bound with angels and believe in them as well.  But these things (i do not even know if it would be defined as christianity) i have are faith based  with what i know and how i feel, not based on text and scripture. 
I do not think this is wrong it's just my way of trying to hold onto a faith and have that in my life.
Fellowship is a hard thing not because i have issues with Christianity per say but with the whole pickle barrel, really.  To go into a proper town church and rise up to the pastor and ask him to help me and ask the parishners to support me because i am transgendered? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
only then to have the pastor say he will but have to work within the limitations of his scriptures and to have the wonderful parishners (your friends, townspeople, etc..) say they do to then not be a foot off the church's step and then the gossipping starts and rumors and hurtful things...
very sad and i do not open a door for that event to happen.
Seems to me Christianity has lost or not found more good christians because of their ignorant ways and the bad ones they have fenced in.
Well anyway I'm sorry that was not a nice thing to just say i mean it in general terms not in a hateful way..
Thank you & I look forward to reading more of what you post!
Ricki

[Hazumu]

This belief [that there is no God] is absolutely as valid, and should be respected - especially since it's based on evidence and not something unprovable - like faith.

On Sunday night I watched the DVD, "Jesus Camp", a documentary about a children's ministry withing the Pentecostal church.  The movie was amazingly even-handed.  So much so, that while progressives are shaking their heads in disbelief at what goes on in pentecostal ministries and the narrow-mindedness of such families, Pentecostals themselves are buying copies of the DVD to give to friends and non-believers because they are shown in such a positive, truthful light.

I watched the movie again, with the Directors' commentary turned on, to see what else I could glean.

At the end, to explain the families' beliefs in the face of evidence contradicting their beliefs, the directors said;

"Faith trumps EVERYTHING"

I will remember those words for the rest of my life -- faith trumps everything...

Karen

[Susan]

It made me come to a strong conclusion that God is just a lie, and the people that believe in him do so out of psychological need and projection. This belief is absolutely as valid, and should be respected - especially since it's based on evidence and not something unprovable - like faith.

But with no God(s) there can be no spirituality. Thus someone who felt that way reallly should have no reason to be in here bashing other people's faith. Right or wrong?

[Tiffany Elise]

David;
  Greetings and welcome. Truly many have been hurt in the name of Chritianity and just as there arose a king that knew not Joseph, there are many that have arisen that know not God. It's a shame that they have forgotten they are but gentiles after the flaesh and have nothing to boast but in Christ the Lord. I hope that you can help those here who have been the subject of ridicule, hate and excommunication.
  The mainstream may look down on many here but we know the Lord weighs the thoughts and intents of the heart.
  Like Isaiah 66:5 says, Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
  Just as light manifests darkness, I think we manifest a judgmental attitude in others. Without someone to judge, the judgmental would not be known.

Ricki;
  I don't know exactly what you meant by prayers not being answered but this I do know. There are Christians on this site that do not judge others and accept you for who you are. While it can't take the place of attending a church, it looks like the Lord sent a minister when he sent David. He and the rest may at least be of some comfort. Lord knows, we need it with the mess that is called mainstream Christianity.

Tiff

[Omika]

Susan invited me to be a part of this forum, and I want to publicly thank her for her friendship and all she's done for our GLBT community. I'm pastor of a small GLBT-affirming church here in Tennessee, and I wanted to start a few threads specifically geared toward the Christian walk.

I know a lot of the members here are of different faiths or of no faith, and Susan and I both respect the difference of opinion regarding our spiritual lives. These posts will reflect my own walk and convictions, and I merely invite anyone to read along and share their own thoughts.

So, without further ado, I want to present the first of what I hope to be many posts here on the forum at susans.org:



What an exciting time it is for us at Christian Community Church of Clarksville. We've never been more focused on our mission for Clarksville and the surrounding areas than we are right now. Sure, we're small. That's okay!

After all, how many people did it take to change the world? Twelve.

Yes, we're focused. But before I start talking about our mission, I want to take a minute to apologize. I'm sorry, dear friends. I'm sorry that the church (in general, not just us) has failed to minister to so many of you who are hungry for real, genuine fellowship. I'm sorry that we've been hypocritical. We're sorry for being a bunch of self-righteous, judgmental bastards. We've pointed fingers. We've gossiped. God knows that this goes on about anywhere you can imagine.

And yes, I'm lumping CCC-Clarksville in that mass group of churches. You see, we're all part of the body of Christ. It's not a mass collection of individual churches that we have here in Clarksville. We're all part of the same body, the same baptism, the same faith. We have ONE Lord. Some of our brethren are quick to condemn, quick to judge, and quick to point fingers. And that affects all of us. And for that, I sincerely apologize.

This is a new day. It's a new morning where the snow is still on the ground, and our eyes are fixed squarely on one thing: Jesus. So what is our focus? It's simple. We are focused on loving people, giving you a Christian church home where you can grow, be loved, sit on the sidelines, or get involved. We're all in this thing together. All we need is YOU.

Okay, so you don't live here in Clarksville. Perfect. Faith is a personal thing for everyone, and I invite anyone to participate on the discussion here. The message that I'll share is simple: GRACE. I believe it's for everyone, no matter who you are, or who you love.

Hello David.  I like you.

When people ask me what faith I am, the only honest response I can ever seem to come up with is "I'm a devout Human."  I am in love with humanity.  Good people. Good, honest, loving, forgiving, beautiful people make my heart sing.  I've never felt the need to declare myself a follower of any particular religion.  I'll wave the flag of every country, bear the symbol of every faith.  I believe it's my duty to challenge people through my dress (I am partial to piercings, tattoos, and gothic styles) and personality.  I try hard to be a walking example of not judging a book by its cover.

I intend, however, to study scripture and Christianity next semester.  I would like to be able to consider myself a Christian, if only in the sense that I follow the teachings and idealogies demonstrated to us by His son, our lord and savior, Jesus Christ.  Just as I hold the teachings of Gautama Buddha and the Four Noble Truths in high esteem.  Just as I weep at the words of great men of the more recent past, such as Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi.  I am moved by all things that point towards the true nature of humanity; compassion, preservation and fellowship.  Violence, war, ignorance and hatred are perversions, I believe.

I also believe that God, the source of all life, exists at the center of the universe, among other things.

That's beside the point, though.  I would just like to say that you have my respect, and while many Christians (and other religious fundamentalists) have sown more suffering than I care to contemplate, I would be a true hypocrite if I was to judge them all based on this.  Welcome.

And thank you.

~ Blair

P.S.  I have a question.  Regarding my transition, my mother has said very plainly, "I don't believe God makes mistakes."  Of course, I haven't really had the patience to argue with her lately, but I have to ask, what would you say to her in response to this?  I'm very curious.

[LynnER]

I dont really have anything overly meaningful to say here accept welcome aboard...

Personaly I have little to no use for organised religion in any form accept as a subject to write about in song. Usualy (Allways?) protraid as evil.  But I am actualy a highly spiritual person,  I have my own way of believeing and thats good enough for me 

Im glad someone of your position is willing to come on here and atleast try (if you can make it past the bashing gauntlet) to help out others on this site that have managed to maintain there faith as such.  Its a daunting undertakeing in my mind and one Im glad someone stepped up to the plate to take a swing at.  I can often be found in #Chat if you ever care to join us there and if you ever manage the time Id love to have some theological discussions with you.  As I said Im spiritual but not religious and I think it would be very interesting to actualy speak with a minister? rather than your avrage believer.

Enjoy your stay and thanks in advance for any good you manage to bring to those who are watching.

[David W. Shelton]

When people ask me what faith I am, the only honest response I can ever seem to come up with is "I'm a devout Human."  I am in love with humanity.  Good people. Good, honest, loving, forgiving, beautiful people make my heart sing.  I've never felt the need to declare myself a follower of any particular religion.  I'll wave the flag of every country, bear the symbol of every faith.  I believe it's my duty to challenge people through my dress (I am partial to piercings, tattoos, and gothic styles) and personality.  I try hard to be a walking example of not judging a book by its cover.

I intend, however, to study scripture and Christianity next semester.  I would like to be able to consider myself a Christian, if only in the sense that I follow the teachings and idealogies demonstrated to us by His son, our lord and savior, Jesus Christ.  Just as I hold the teachings of Gautama Buddha and the Four Noble Truths in high esteem.  Just as I weep at the words of great men of the more recent past, such as Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi.  I am moved by all things that point towards the true nature of humanity; compassion, preservation and fellowship.  Violence, war, ignorance and hatred are perversions, I believe.

I also believe that God, the source of all life, exists at the center of the universe, among other things.

That's beside the point, though.  I would just like to say that you have my respect, and while many Christians (and other religious fundamentalists) have sown more suffering than I care to contemplate, I would be a true hypocrite if I was to judge them all based on this.  Welcome.

And thank you.

~ Blair

P.S.  I have a question.  Regarding my transition, my mother has said very plainly, "I don't believe God makes mistakes."  Of course, I haven't really had the patience to argue with her lately, but I have to ask, what would you say to her in response to this?  I'm very curious.

Thank you for your welcome, Blair. I absolutely adore the messages of Dr. King and Ghandhi. I will probably be studying them even more over the next few years. Their overall message of love even when they are put in to a position where they must speak out against the prevailing society of oppression.

Sadly, much of the evangelical and fundamentalist church has become the oppressor today. Our tiny church has to speak its message of quiet love amidst the hordes who are screaming "hate the sin, love the sinner," as if being GLBT was some horrible sin in and of itself.

Does God make mistakes? That all depends on whether or not one believes that transgender people were simply given mistaken gender. For a lot of evangelical/fundamentalist people, they hold up Scripture which says that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made" in our mothers' wombs. This naturally presents a dilemma for those of us who have to work through issues of sexual orientation or gender identity.

Is it possible that He makes mistakes? Well, me made mosquitoes... and I'm still trying to figure out that silly platypus. Was He stoned then? Like Robin Williams once said... it's as if God said, "let's piss off Darwin... here's a beaver with a duck's bill that lays eggs. HAH!"

I don't think He makes mistakes. I really don't. I think... and this is just my opinion... that God creates the very small percentage of us who are GLBT, not to test our own mettle (as some claim) but to challenge the prevailing system that limits God in their own tiny box of legalism.

I'm reminded of the Pharisees who asked Christ, "who sinned, this blind man, or his parents?" They were of the same mentality of many legalists today. They thought that a person's birth defect was not a mistake, but rather because of some unconfessed sin in the lives of the parents or even of the child.

Christ's response was one that I think is worth echoing: "Neither. He was made blind to show the glory of God." He then proceeded to miraculously heal the blind man's eyes, on the Sabbath even. The Pharisees weren't impressed, though. They wanted to arrest Jesus for "working" on the Sabbath.

People will see what they want to see. Jesus opened the eyes of one man, and revealed the blindness of others. I don't think for a second, though, that transgenderism is a mistake or a defect by any means... it just is.

What if those of us who are GLBT are here to reveal the blindness of those around us? What if God's plan all along was for us to challenge the system of hate and oppression... just by existing? The question of transgenderism literally forces legalistic people to question their own beliefs.

Now what happens when those of us who are GLBT are shown to be living happy, normal, well-adjusted lives? What happens when a TG person completes their transition, thus curing their GID? It throws everything that a legalist believes into the blender. Instead of gawking at our misery, they're faced with puzzlement at our content.

And that's no mistake.

[Dennis]

It made me come to a strong conclusion that God is just a lie, and the people that believe in him do so out of psychological need and projection. This belief is absolutely as valid, and should be respected - especially since it's based on evidence and not something unprovable - like faith.

But with no God(s) there can be no spirituality. Thus someone who felt that way reallly should have no reason to be in here bashing other people's faith. Right or wrong?

I think you're right, Susan. I was raised atheist and remain so. Not adamantly so, as in opposition to people who believe in god. It's just not my family's thing. As such, it's also not my inclination to criticize a faith in god for those who were raised differently or who choose to believe differently. I will quite happily bash fundies who think they should be telling others how to live, but that isn't inherent with a belief in god. There are non-believers who are bigots as well. The fundies just use their church as justification for it.

I've had friends and people I liked who were christians, jews, muslims, sikhs and buddhists. There are also people I dislike in any stratum of society. Judgmentalism isn't purely a christian trait.

That said, welcome to the forums Mr. Shelton. An open heart and an open mind are refreshing qualities in any person.

Dennis

[Chaunte]

Does God make mistakes? That all depends on whether or not one believes that transgender people were simply given mistaken gender. For a lot of evangelical/fundamentalist people, they hold up Scripture which says that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made" in our mothers' wombs. This naturally presents a dilemma for those of us who have to work through issues of sexual orientation or gender identity.

Is it possible that He makes mistakes? Well, me made mosquitoes... and I'm still trying to figure out that silly platypus. Was He stoned then? Like Robin Williams once said... it's as if God said, "let's piss off Darwin... here's a beaver with a duck's bill that lays eggs. HAH!"

I don't think He makes mistakes. I really don't. I think... and this is just my opinion... that God creates the very small percentage of us who are GLBT, not to test our own mettle (as some claim) but to challenge the prevailing system that limits God in their own tiny box of legalism.

I'm reminded of the Pharisees who asked Christ, "who sinned, this blind man, or his parents?" They were of the same mentality of many legalists today. They thought that a person's birth defect was not a mistake, but rather because of some unconfessed sin in the lives of the parents or even of the child.

Christ's response was one that I think is worth echoing: "Neither. He was made blind to show the glory of God." He then proceeded to miraculously heal the blind man's eyes, on the Sabbath even. The Pharisees weren't impressed, though. They wanted to arrest Jesus for "working" on the Sabbath.

People will see what they want to see. Jesus opened the eyes of one man, and revealed the blindness of others. I don't think for a second, though, that transgenderism is a mistake or a defect by any means... it just is.

What if those of us who are GLBT are here to reveal the blindness of those around us? What if God's plan all along was for us to challenge the system of hate and oppression... just by existing? The question of transgenderism literally forces legalistic people to question their own beliefs.

Now what happens when those of us who are GLBT are shown to be living happy, normal, well-adjusted lives? What happens when a TG person completes their transition, thus curing their GID? It throws everything that a legalist believes into the blender. Instead of gawking at our misery, they're faced with puzzlement at our content.

And that's no mistake.

David,

My personal thought has been that the transgendered community exists to help the sexes understand each other.

Afterall, who better to be a mediator than someone who has literally walked in the shoes of both?

Chaunte

[David W. Shelton]

David,

My personal thought has been that the transgendered community exists to help the sexes understand each other.

Afterall, who better to be a mediator than someone who has literally walked in the shoes of both?

Chaunte

Simply brilliant! Thank you.

[togetherwecan]

Welcome to Susan's place David. I am relatively new here, but this is my favorite place on the net. It feels quite nice being around so many open, honest and caring people. In the short time I have been here I feel I have made some friends that will be friends forever, including Susan herself.

I love that you are a Pastor - as I am a Christian. I sincerely look forward to reading more of your posts.

[katia]

thanx david for sharing your views.  personally i don't believe in god or any religions as they\'re currently [presented by humanity]. the more I learn about religion, the more it becomes clear that religious believers lack commonsense, logic and intelligence.
religion itself has inflicted [terrible horrors] on humanity, so much so, that it's difficult to believe and understand why any [decent moral person] could believe in god or have religious beliefs.
current evidence proves conclusively that [god and the bible] are both [fakes]. there is not one single matter discussed in the bible out of the many thousands of issues raised that has been proven true, yet many matters have been proven false. you don't really need to be a rocket scientist to deduce with practically 100% certainty that god and the bible are fake.
for me the bible is a very [dangerous book]. it\'s the biggest [load of lies] and codswallop ever [written by man], and i'm sure it will go down in history as the greatest load of [gobbledygook] ever to inflict such [traumatic mental and physical damage on humanity], but still today, some people sadly believe the bible to be true. that's very sad indeed. very sad.
if religious people are unable to apply [commonsense and logic] to develop a simple moral code to live by, then perhaps they could strip out of the bible the evil, murders, rapes, abuse, and all [traumatic] references. granted there will not be a lot left to read, but at least religious people may end up with a decent moral code to follow based on good, and not scare the living daylights out of [innocent] people.
i thank you very much for taking the time to post your ideas, yet i\'m afraid it won\'t make any difference on how i view christianity, god or the bible.

[Omika]

Thank you for your welcome, Blair. I absolutely adore the messages of Dr. King and Ghandhi. I will probably be studying them even more over the next few years. Their overall message of love even when they are put in to a position where they must speak out against the prevailing society of oppression.

Sadly, much of the evangelical and fundamentalist church has become the oppressor today. Our tiny church has to speak its message of quiet love amidst the hordes who are screaming "hate the sin, love the sinner," as if being GLBT was some horrible sin in and of itself.

Does God make mistakes? That all depends on whether or not one believes that transgender people were simply given mistaken gender. For a lot of evangelical/fundamentalist people, they hold up Scripture which says that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made" in our mothers' wombs. This naturally presents a dilemma for those of us who have to work through issues of sexual orientation or gender identity.

Is it possible that He makes mistakes? Well, me made mosquitoes... and I'm still trying to figure out that silly platypus. Was He stoned then? Like Robin Williams once said... it's as if God said, "let's piss off Darwin... here's a beaver with a duck's bill that lays eggs. HAH!"

I don't think He makes mistakes. I really don't. I think... and this is just my opinion... that God creates the very small percentage of us who are GLBT, not to test our own mettle (as some claim) but to challenge the prevailing system that limits God in their own tiny box of legalism.

I'm reminded of the Pharisees who asked Christ, "who sinned, this blind man, or his parents?" They were of the same mentality of many legalists today. They thought that a person's birth defect was not a mistake, but rather because of some unconfessed sin in the lives of the parents or even of the child.

Christ's response was one that I think is worth echoing: "Neither. He was made blind to show the glory of God." He then proceeded to miraculously heal the blind man's eyes, on the Sabbath even. The Pharisees weren't impressed, though. They wanted to arrest Jesus for "working" on the Sabbath.

People will see what they want to see. Jesus opened the eyes of one man, and revealed the blindness of others. I don't think for a second, though, that transgenderism is a mistake or a defect by any means... it just is.

What if those of us who are GLBT are here to reveal the blindness of those around us? What if God's plan all along was for us to challenge the system of hate and oppression... just by existing? The question of transgenderism literally forces legalistic people to question their own beliefs.

Now what happens when those of us who are GLBT are shown to be living happy, normal, well-adjusted lives? What happens when a TG person completes their transition, thus curing their GID? It throws everything that a legalist believes into the blender. Instead of gawking at our misery, they're faced with puzzlement at our content.

And that's no mistake.

Yes, those are essentially my thoughts as well.  I have always considered myself more of a test for the emotional intelligence and maturity of the people around me by being transsexual.  I pretty much dedicate my life to affecting as many people as possible in a positive way, really.  My father always told me it's proper etiquette to leave the campsite cleaner than when you found it.  So that's what I intend to do, on a global scale.  It's just...  polite.

Cheers, David!

~ Blair

thanx david for sharing your views.  personally i don't believe in god or any religions as they\'re currently [presented by humanity]. the more I learn about religion, the more it becomes clear that religious believers lack commonsense, logic and intelligence.
religion itself has inflicted [terrible horrors] on humanity, so much so, that it's difficult to believe and understand why any [decent moral person] could believe in god or have religious beliefs.
current evidence proves conclusively that [god and the bible] are both [fakes]. there is not one single matter discussed in the bible out of the many thousands of issues raised that has been proven true, yet many matters have been proven false. you don't really need to be a rocket scientist to deduce with practically 100% certainty that god and the bible are fake.
for me the bible is a very [dangerous book]. it\'s the biggest [load of lies] and codswallop ever [written by man], and i'm sure it will go down in history as the greatest load of [gobbledygook] ever to inflict such [traumatic mental and physical damage on humanity], but still today, some people sadly believe the bible to be true. that's very sad indeed. very sad.
if religious people are unable to apply [commonsense and logic] to develop a simple moral code to live by, then perhaps they could strip out of the bible the evil, murders, rapes, abuse, and all [traumatic] references. granted there will not be a lot left to read, but at least religious people may end up with a decent moral code to follow based on good, and not scare the living daylights out of [innocent] people.
i thank you very much for taking the time to post your ideas, yet i\'m afraid it won\'t make any difference on how i view christianity, god or the bible.

That's really unfortunate.  I find theology fascinating, personally, and whether or not the Bible is a crock of silly fairy tales is beside the point, I think.  There's so many flavors of christianity to choose from, all with shocking differences, and oftentimes, an absoloutely absurd loathing for one another (Catholics versus protestants, for example).  Unitarians I tend to find particularily interesting, really, but they're often mocked (for giving other religions a respectful nod.)  Though I'm just prattling about something I don't have any sort of substantial knowledge of.  It's like my best friend and roommate often says on the topic:

"I just think Jesus was a really cool dude, and wanted everyone else to be cool too."

Isn't that a message for the 21st century?  I think people should really internalize it.  "Be cool."

I like it.  Be cool.  Relax.  Count to ten.  Don't count down from ten, though.

~ Blair

[Dryad]

thanx david for sharing your views.  personally i don't believe in god or any religions as they\'re currently [presented by humanity]. the more I learn about religion, the more it becomes clear that religious believers lack commonsense, logic and intelligence.
religion itself has inflicted [terrible horrors] on humanity, so much so, that it's difficult to believe and understand why any [decent moral person] could believe in god or have religious beliefs.
current evidence proves conclusively that [god and the bible] are both [fakes]. there is not one single matter discussed in the bible out of the many thousands of issues raised that has been proven true, yet many matters have been proven false. you don't really need to be a rocket scientist to deduce with practically 100% certainty that god and the bible are fake.
for me the bible is a very [dangerous book]. it\'s the biggest [load of lies] and codswallop ever [written by man], and i'm sure it will go down in history as the greatest load of [gobbledygook] ever to inflict such [traumatic mental and physical damage on humanity], but still today, some people sadly believe the bible to be true. that's very sad indeed. very sad.
if religious people are unable to apply [commonsense and logic] to develop a simple moral code to live by, then perhaps they could strip out of the bible the evil, murders, rapes, abuse, and all [traumatic] references. granted there will not be a lot left to read, but at least religious people may end up with a decent moral code to follow based on good, and not scare the living daylights out of [innocent] people.
i thank you very much for taking the time to post your ideas, yet i\'m afraid it won\'t make any difference on how i view christianity, god or the bible.

Try not to be as closed minded as many, but still not most, christians are.
I've read the bible, and know what's in there. Hell; I've read it over five times. The truth is: Yes, it was written by people. And people make mistakes. Yes, religion is of the people, and yes, people will try to abuse it, when they need to.
Take the Hebrews. The Hebrews were, at first, at war with.. Oh, everyone. They were travelling around, attacking other people, for oases, other people's goats, other people's people, and cities.
Their JHWH was a volcano God. A god of war. A god that smote the unbelievers. A god for the people.
Then came the whole Babylon deal. Babylon was kind of pissed off at those people waging wars on everyone. They captured the hebrews, and brought them into slavery. And here, religious leaders got thinking. About the world. Genesis was written, a book that looks as though it's solely about how everything came to exist, but there's a lot more to genesis than just that. It offered the reason for their babylonian oppressor to act as it has done.
Cain was in Nod for the murder on his brother. A murder commited because of envy, jealousy. God couldn't have with that, and sent the man to Nod, the place for contemplation. Only after Cain had spent a long time there, on his spiritual journey of contemplation, was Cain allowed to enter the World. Not paradise, not Eden, not the place his parents lived, but the World. And in the world, he met a woman, and started a new life.
Well, the Canaanites committed murder, aswell. And Babylon was their Nod. And from that moment on, the religion started to change. Suddenly, JHWH became benevolent, kind, loving, all knowing. Not the smiting child he was before that.
And yes, when Christianity arose, or better yet, shortly after, many mistakes have again been made. But it's not too late to see the lands Nod shining just over the horizon.

Because it's PEOPLE who do this sort of thing. It's not religion; religion is merely abused; it's their excuse to go around doing stupid things, things that harm others. But religion itself didn't do it. It was people who did. But the people who didn't need not be condemned to Nod like the people who did. Because the people who didn't know better.

All in all: There are sides to this story, sides to this opinion. But if you don't wish to be harmed because of your opinion, you'll have to be able to try and respect the opinions of others. Provided these opinions aren't harmful. Beneficial opinions should be sanctified, no matter what religion gave birth to them.

[David W. Shelton]

Welcome to Susan's place David. I am relatively new here, but this is my favorite place on the net. It feels quite nice being around so many open, honest and caring people. In the short time I have been here I feel I have made some friends that will be friends forever, including Susan herself.

I love that you are a Pastor - as I am a Christian. I sincerely look forward to reading more of your posts.

Thank you for your welcome, together. I'm truly honored that so many have taken the time to welcome a nut like me, but in this world, I think we've all got to be a little nuts.

I see what you mean about the people on here. The TG people I've meet have consistently been the most self-aware, honest, down-to-earth, and genuine people that I've known. When I compare the over-the-top drama that I see with some elements of the GLBT community with the quiet resourcefulness of those who are transgender, it's a clear difference.

Susan and I have gotten to know each other on a personal level for quite some time in the last couple of years as well. My partner and I both love Susan very much, and she shares our love for sci-fi and great conversations. The fact that Susan is as much as an activist as I am, if not more, makes our friendship really beneficial. I count her friendship as one of the high points of my life, and I'm honored to know her.

thanx david for sharing your views.  personally i don't believe in god or any religions as they\'re currently [presented by humanity]. the more I learn about religion, the more it becomes clear that religious believers lack commonsense, logic and intelligence.
religion itself has inflicted [terrible horrors] on humanity, so much so, that it's difficult to believe and understand why any [decent moral person] could believe in god or have religious beliefs.
current evidence proves conclusively that [god and the bible] are both [fakes]. there is not one single matter discussed in the bible out of the many thousands of issues raised that has been proven true, yet many matters have been proven false. you don't really need to be a rocket scientist to deduce with practically 100% certainty that god and the bible are fake.
for me the bible is a very [dangerous book]. it\'s the biggest [load of lies] and codswallop ever [written by man], and i'm sure it will go down in history as the greatest load of [gobbledygook] ever to inflict such [traumatic mental and physical damage on humanity], but still today, some people sadly believe the bible to be true. that's very sad indeed. very sad.
if religious people are unable to apply [commonsense and logic] to develop a simple moral code to live by, then perhaps they could strip out of the bible the evil, murders, rapes, abuse, and all [traumatic] references. granted there will not be a lot left to read, but at least religious people may end up with a decent moral code to follow based on good, and not scare the living daylights out of [innocent] people.
i thank you very much for taking the time to post your ideas, yet i\'m afraid it won\'t make any difference on how i view christianity, god or the bible.

Katia, I respect your opinion regarding the Bible and Christianity. I have no intention of trying to change your mind. However, I have to ask if it's wise to lump all religious believers in the same lump as those who lack "commonsense, logic, and intelligence."

From what I have seen, there are several wonderful TG people who have become content in their spiritual lives here. I would hardly call them dumb, illogical, or lacking in common sense. Their journeys are almost always replete with challenges and spiritual crises. These are the kind of crises that they (and I) believe that their faith brings them through.

So while I respect your views that Christians and other religious people are all a bunch of self-righteous bastards, and even apologize for them... I ask you to look for those of faith who represent the ideal, the inspired, the logical, and the sensible. Look for the positive, even of those of us who have faith. We don't have to agree, but we can... and should... learn to understand each other.

In the end, I understand your frustration and resentment. We can, however, learn to understand each other. Just because you think the Bible is the biggest load of lies or gobbledygook out there, doesn't mean you can't appreciate some of the finer points and principles that it presents amidst the "lies" and "gobbledygook."

Look for the good in all things; and you'll find it. Look for the bad... well, you'll find that too.

[katia]

just because you think the Bible is the biggest load of lies or gobbledygook out there, doesn't mean you can't appreciate some of the finer points and principles that it presents amidst the "lies" and "gobbledygook."

Look for the good in all things; and you'll find it. Look for the bad... well, you'll find that too.

the bible. used as [law] by some, considered [art] by others. to me, the bible is a compilations of stories which were passed through oral tradition, some of them readjusted to characters and beliefs of the time when was written. [religious syncretism]
there are clear proofs of that. for instance, [noah's arc history]: a vase with more than 10000 years, and with [ganesha] as the main character, was found. the story was [identical], and so on, and so on.
many ideas present in the bible [all of the books] show clearly a tendency to convey the ideas of that time. like women [must have a secondary role], and [men short hair].

since i don't like religious books which are [deprived of deep philosophy], the bible is [meaningless to me]. it has laws, it has advices, it has dogmas, but it fails to teach a very important thing: [to awaken answers within you]; im sure you have heard the famous advice: accept and don't question.. (how great it's that... )
many people try to adjust the bible and religious books to new discoveries, while others dont even try. i say, you only do that if you are [pretty lost]. The [heart and the human condition are and will be the only source of knowledge].

Want [my own bible]? try to discover about yourself, challenge yourself, and do always your best. believe me, you will be doing much more than most people do during their whole lives.  good luck!

[Ricki]

David i wanted to share my thoughts concerning

does God make mistakes.

It took me years to try and understand why the world works the way it does and i do not undertsand it but i had to come up with some sort of thesis for me to understand it.
here goes:
I think that God created the most perfect and imperfect aspect of what anything living could be and then turned the creation into an explosion or growth..
By creating it in a perfect vision but then letting go to allow what i would call nature to take over his creation blossomed.. This the crux to me is when things went seriosuly right and also went seriosuly wrong.  His intentions i have no clue, i do not necessarily think of it as something like a test for me or ts' or disabled people, etc.  (my thinking only) but rather just the way that nature and the world have grown and developed.
Good things and bad things happen and co-exist.
How does one explain miracles of life and giving yet horrors of disease and death.
again just my own personal theory but i truly believe God gave himself power over all these things but only exercises enough intervention when and where needed but not always?
I relay this thinking to my angels and when there were times where bad things could of and very well should of happened to me they were there!  alas not everything goes perfectly and Lord knows i've had my share of bad times as well.....(and yes i fear my angels were there watching as well)
This thinking like for examaple... a baby is born and dies within days of some complication, a shame a travesty for a mother to have carried a child and then to have lost it...then in the same lifetime a murderer or child molester is allowed to comit crimes and the most cruelest of acts against a child?  One would ask where is the justice?
Not in this lifetime is my thinking and answer...
I was asked before by a friend when i had said do not worry their judgement day will come and he said do you really think God judges, i said without much hesitation yes i do!
I have worked hard in my life to be as accepting as possible as non judgemental as possible and as free spririted as possible and to try and not be a hypocrit!
I know i am born human and frail and i will fail and i will sin, i do sin.  I am at one with my God because so far my sins i do not feel are sins of an order in which my God will be too harsh with me.  I watch this ugly world we live in (yes i find beauty and good people in it too) and quietly pass by bad people and bad events knowing in my heart there will, there must be a time of equalness and retribution...
I ask for so little in my next life.. Wholeness of what being i am (spiritual i hope) and peace....
I wish that for you and the people around us.
thanks for reading
Ricki

[Kate Thomas]

Hi David
Welcom to the Forum

Does god make mistakes?
I should hope so.  I just hope he learns from his mistakes.

is the bible  a bunch of gobbledygook? No, but I do think people will twist its words at every opportunity to suit their own agenda, be it good, or be it bad.

I think there are many who do not or will not view it from the right perspective. when some problem arises that they don't know how to deal with, they do not go to the bible to seek wisdom. instead they go to the bible seeking condemnation.

Kate Alice

[Shana A]

Take the Hebrews. The Hebrews were, at first, at war with.. Oh, everyone. They were travelling around, attacking other people, for oases, other people's goats, other people's people, and cities.
Their JHWH was a volcano God. A god of war. A god that smote the unbelievers. A god for the people.

There is more than one face of G-d in the old testament. While there are many instances of the angry g-d that you mention, there was also a g-d of love and compassion. The bible was written by various different authors over time, and thus we see multiple variations in the depictions of g-d and histories of events. In the Jewish tradition, there are numerous writings (talmud) about these differences and what they might mean. It is an incomplete assessment of Judaism to only read what the old testament (torah) says, without taking into account these extensive commentaries (talmud).

zythyra