We're sorry for being self-righteous, judgmental bastards.

[David W. Shelton]

Susan invited me to be a part of this forum, and I want to publicly thank her for her friendship and all she's done for our GLBT community. I'm pastor of a small GLBT-affirming church here in Tennessee, and I wanted to start a few threads specifically geared toward the Christian walk.

I know a lot of the members here are of different faiths or of no faith, and Susan and I both respect the difference of opinion regarding our spiritual lives. These posts will reflect my own walk and convictions, and I merely invite anyone to read along and share their own thoughts.

So, without further ado, I want to present the first of what I hope to be many posts here on the forum at susans.org:



What an exciting time it is for us at Christian Community Church of Clarksville. We've never been more focused on our mission for Clarksville and the surrounding areas than we are right now. Sure, we're small. That's okay!

After all, how many people did it take to change the world? Twelve.

Yes, we're focused. But before I start talking about our mission, I want to take a minute to apologize. I'm sorry, dear friends. I'm sorry that the church (in general, not just us) has failed to minister to so many of you who are hungry for real, genuine fellowship. I'm sorry that we've been hypocritical. We're sorry for being a bunch of self-righteous, judgmental bastards. We've pointed fingers. We've gossiped. God knows that this goes on about anywhere you can imagine.

And yes, I'm lumping CCC-Clarksville in that mass group of churches. You see, we're all part of the body of Christ. It's not a mass collection of individual churches that we have here in Clarksville. We're all part of the same body, the same baptism, the same faith. We have ONE Lord. Some of our brethren are quick to condemn, quick to judge, and quick to point fingers. And that affects all of us. And for that, I sincerely apologize.

This is a new day. It's a new morning where the snow is still on the ground, and our eyes are fixed squarely on one thing: Jesus. So what is our focus? It's simple. We are focused on loving people, giving you a Christian church home where you can grow, be loved, sit on the sidelines, or get involved. We're all in this thing together. All we need is YOU.

Okay, so you don't live here in Clarksville. Perfect. Faith is a personal thing for everyone, and I invite anyone to participate on the discussion here. The message that I'll share is simple: GRACE. I believe it's for everyone, no matter who you are, or who you love.

[Melissa]

Thank you.  Most of us just want to live our lives in a peaceful manner and those of us who are christians would like to participate in the christian faith without worry of ridicule or scorn.  I consider myself mostly christian (that's what my beliefs are mostly centered around), but I fear going to church in that I would be kicked out and my life made even more miserable because of it.  I consider myself a very loving individual and I don't judge people.  I don't even judge those who judge me.  I just feel sorry for them that they are unable to be loving and non-judgemental people as well and that they need to live in constant fear of us.  We don't "corrupt" or anything.  We just sought healing and want to continue (for the most part) how we lived in our previous lives. 

Nobody can really find any rock solid (without exception) definition to gender including in the bible other than how we identify.  Therefore there really is nothing in there that says we are really doing anything that isn't a generally accepted practice by most christians that defies anything in the bible.  If it talks about bodily modification, there's plenty of counter examples including things as simple as braces or laser eye surgery, not to mention a whole host of other surgeries.

Anyhow, most christians can agree we are just people too and as far as I knew, there was nothing wrong with a person attending a church regardless of gender.  Thank you for taking the time to listen.

Melissa

[Ricki]

Thanks and welcome David i being the ever curious one of the battallion will read and follow with encorugament to see how your posts develope!
I have some nyclad body armor in case it gets a little wiggy, Huh-hummm not that that ever happens, hehe...
again welcome
Ricki

[Chaunte]

David,

Welcome to Susans!

Thank you for the apology, but there is no need.  Since Susan invited you here, you already understand that all of us are children of the Almighty.

I am one of the fortunate ones here - I have found a parish that is accepting and welcoming of the LBGT community.  St. Andrews is a place where I will be able to transition and continue my music ministry.  (St. Andrews is the place where people who have left the priesthood and sisterhood come to worship.)  It's an open secret at present.

I look forward to reading your words and interacting with you here at Susans.

Chaunte

[kaelin]

It's not your fault.  I think most of us understand that we can't judge a whole religion based on the actions of a few people.  Some people do spectacular work, some threaten the future civilization as we know it, and most fall somewhere between the others.

That said, I'm more of an ignostic (hard agnostic on the basis of science), and miracles or God's existence seem highly improbable.  I think we can still analyze The Bible as a literary work, in the context of the culture at the time, in order to glean truths that we can apply in our lives today - the largest seems to be to love others and have civilized honest discourse instead of selfishly and hastily imposing our will and thoughts on others.

Regardless of the basis of one's beliefs, I think we can share our own perspectives on various issues and still find common ground.  If we can hit upon principles that transcend many belief systems, they will be much easier to promote and use.

[Dryad]

Yes, we're focused. But before I start talking about our mission, I want to take a minute to apologize. I'm sorry, dear friends. I'm sorry that the church (in general, not just us) has failed to minister to so many of you who are hungry for real, genuine fellowship. I'm sorry that we've been hypocritical. We're sorry for being a bunch of self-righteous, judgmental bastards. We've pointed fingers. We've gossiped. God knows that this goes on about anywhere you can imagine.

Clearly, you are not a part of this 'we' you are talking about. You are a part of the Christian Church. That doesn't make you part of the people that think Christianity is all about shouting people with different opinions will all rot in hell.
(If I remember my gospels correctly, Jesus Christ would probably burst into tears if he were to be confronted by those people...)
But as you yourself clearly prove, not all Christians feel that way. My father doesn't, and he's a reverend. (Don't know if I spelled correctly; in Dutch it's called a Dominee.) I know many people who don't feel that way, many people who are members of the Church my father preaches in. Most of them don't. His church was the first church in the NL that had gay marriages, for example. This church works in perfect harmony with catholic churches, baptist churches, and even wants to work together with some pagan groups. (However, due to prejudice from both sides, the latter is a bit tricky still.)
They think God is not just a shepherd for them alone, but for all people, whatever gender, race, sexual preference or spiritual persuasion. So for me, this has proven that móst christians aren't spiteful 'fundies.' It's just that the spiteful fundies have the loudest voices.
So again, me, too: You have no reason to offer your apology.

Instead, I thank you for all the effort you have made!

[BeverlyAnn]

Welcome David.  As with your church, the one I attend here in Atlanta is small and is the only More Light Presbyterian church in Georgia.  I look forward to future posts from you and if I may, I want to use your comment about taking only 12 to change the world.

BeverlyAnn

[David W. Shelton]

Welcome David.  As with your church, the one I attend here in Atlanta is small and is the only More Light Presbyterian church in Georgia.  I look forward to future posts from you and if I may, I want to use your comment about taking only 12 to change the world.

BeverlyAnn

Hi BeverylyAnn... of course you can use it. Thanks for the welcome!

David

[Ricki]

David i want to ask... (since i was posting a touch ago and stated it in a post)
"why doesn't my God acknowledge my pain and help me"....??
I ask for the extreme and often times just for the next place to put my next foot step..He's answered in some ways but i cannot see all...
I know without preaching too much and disturbing the bats that are resting, can you offer some insight for me? (maybe others that ask the same question to themselves?)
Thanks
Ricki

[Brianna]

Dear David,

First of all, thanks for coming here. I am sure there are others here that would appreciate having the spiritual perspective. I appreciate your candid and direct manner.

Secondly, I'm one of the ones you've injured deeply. In my opinion there is nothing you or any other Christian could say to compensate for what your people have done to us. In that same vein I won't hold you up to obloquy for their actions.

Christianity made me hate myself before I could think critically. Christianity took my family away and judged me an abomination. I say this because I want you to understand - I'm not interested in being proselytized to.

Those are my boundaries, which I would want you to respect. In turn, I'll respect your belief that Christianity is compatible with GLBT rights

Bri.

[David W. Shelton]

David i want to ask... (since i was posting a touch ago and stated it in a post)
"why doesn't my God acknowledge my pain and help me"....??
I ask for the extreme and often times just for the next place to put my next foot step..He's answered in some ways but i cannot see all...
I know without preaching too much and disturbing the bats that are resting, can you offer some insight for me? (maybe others that ask the same question to themselves?)
Thanks
Ricki

Hi Ricki,

It is, of course, extremely difficult to answer questions like this without knowing the situations, and certainly without sounding trite. You've got real frustrations, real struggles, and real problems. I know better than to answer any of that with anything that starts with, "Well, the Bible says..."

One of the realities of life is that it will suck. >-bleeped-< happens. And for those of us who are in the GLBT community, it goes even beyond that. I know that the gay teen suicide rate is three times of straight kids. And transgender people have a suicide rate several times higher than gays. Times like this even '>-bleeped-< happens" is trite.

But I'll tell you what I *think*. I've always seen God as an intimate part of my life, and in all of our lives. If that were so, you might ask, why does all this happen? Well, it's like I said. Life happens. >-bleeped-< happens. So many times, we're alone, frustrated, bitter, and can't really talk to anyone. And when we do, we're rejected, cast out, told that we're abominations... you know the story all too well.

I think that the peace and hope that God gives isn't the absence of turmoil or the absence of frustrations. We always want to be in control, but we're not. I think that God's peace is in the middle of those struggles. It's the kind of peace that doesn't make any sense at all, and makes everyone around us think we're nuts because we're dealing with it. It's the kind of peace that we get when we finally overcome or stand strong in the middle of that storm.

I submit that it's possible that even when he doesn't provide the extreme, he's still there... even providing for that next step. Even if it's a tiny speck of a glimmer of hope, he's there. If there's even an ounce of love, he's there. And when you have only enough faith to say, "why the hell is this happening to me?" he's there. Because sometimes that speck, ounce, or prayer of agony, is just what it takes for us to finally break through.

There's power in numbers, though. I know that through places like this, we can all bond. We can all support each other. It doesn't have to be a "church." Where two or more are gathered in his name, even to cry out of sadness, he's there.

I think faith is built through relationships... with each other, and with God. So often, we feel like we have to go it alone. But imagine what would happen if even two people prayed over a cup of coffee for each other, without judgment, without condemnation, just a mutual love and respect for each other as people of faith. It's incredible, really. It's also scary since it requires enough freedom and transparency to say to each other, I need help."

There are countless people out there who have asked the same thing. Why doesn't God acknowledge your pain? I think he does. I think he IS helping you. The frustrating part is that you can't see it. God knows I understand what that is like.

I pray that you'll find that peace you desperately need. I pray that His arms will embrace you in ways you've never experienced. And I pray that you'll find hope, even when it seems impossible.

Dear David,

First of all, thanks for coming here. I am sure there are others here that would appreciate having the spiritual perspective. I appreciate your candid and direct manner.

Secondly, I'm one of the ones you've injured deeply. In my opinion there is nothing you or any other Christian could say to compensate for what your people have done to us. In that same vein I won't hold you up to obloquy for their actions.

Christianity made me hate myself before I could think critically. Christianity took my family away and judged me an abomination. I say this because I want you to understand - I'm not interested in being proselytized to.

Those are my boundaries, which I would want you to respect. In turn, I'll respect your belief that Christianity is compatible with GLBT rights

Bri.

Hi Bri.

First of all, I want you to understand that I have no intention of proselytizing on this forum. After all, Susan knows where I live... she'd kick my ass if I did.

I remember hearing one of the Beatles.. Lennon, maybe?... "I think Jesus is okay, but I don't care much for his followers" or something like that. Another bumper sticker I love says, "Lord, save me from your followers." Sadly, so many Christians have more in common with the hateful religious leaders who demanded the crucifixion of Christ than with Christ Himself.

His message was simple: "Love God, love people." Too often, we Christians have forgotten that. As a result, we've deeply wounded and even killed people... physically and metaphysically... to the point that even calling myself a Christian makes me one of the "bad guys." I'm keenly aware of the deadly words that have been hurled by my brethren.

As I'm keenly aware of the extreme bitterness and anger in your words. You have a right to be angry. You SHOULD be angry. From what I can tell, your faith was abused, you were verbally abused, and you were raked through the muck that eventually drove you away from faith entirely. I'm sorry you've endured such loss because of "Christianity."

I've said it before, and I say it again. I'm sorry that the church ... and Christians ... have been self-righteous, judgmental bastards. My prayer and hope is that some of those wounds will heal enough so that you can build relationships with those of us who are of faith without letting those wounds drive you to speaking bitter words that will wound those who have themselves also been wounded.

Yes, you have boundaries. And I can understand that. I respect that. However, I do want to correct you on one thing. I do not believe that Christianity is "compatible" with LGBT rights.

I believe that true Christianity CALLS for LGBT rights. It's not an issue of compatibility, it's an issue of injustice. And where there is injustice, especially injutice in the name of "Chrisitanity," it is evil at its purest form. Such injustice has hijacked a faith centered on love and twisted it for their own bigoted hate. That's not Christianity. That's just pure evil. Many of those people, just like the Pharisees, believed they were doing God a favor. Christ called such people "den of vipers" and "bleached tombs." I think it fits.

I believe Christ preached love, tolerance, justice, and equaity. And so will I. My boundaries are narrow. Beat me up, slap me, or even crucify me. My message will remain the same: God is love.

I won't try to compensate. I'm not a fool. But I'll still write about the grace and love of God. My writings are for everyone. With that in mind, I think your boundaries will be will protected.

Thanks again for writing.I look forward to participating more on the board!

[Cindi Jones]

I've suffered many of the same things that Bri is currently going through and I became quite cynical.  But I still had the need to participate in a church.  I dropped by the MCC in Salt Lake City one Sunday afternoon.  I experienced true love, compassion, and total acceptance for the very first time in my life that afternoon.  I wrote about it in my book.

David, I've long maintained that Christ taught that love of God and fellow man were the principle commandments.  No, I'm not a Christian so much any more.  But those laws I can abide. They have become the mainstay in my life. I've mellowed considerably over the years concerning my "Christian" family and the environment in which I was born.

I'm glad that you are here to help those who are in considerable pain.  They need the help, support, and love that has been denied them in their world where Christ has been stripped of all the things that are good and righteous.  It's so hard to lose everything because of a birth defect.

Cindi

[Dryad]

"I think Jesus is okay, but I don't care much for his followers"

Yup, John Lennon. But it was a Mahatma Ghandi quote.

[David W. Shelton]

"I think Jesus is okay, but I don't care much for his followers"

Yup, John Lennon. But it was a Mahatma Ghandi quote.

Great! Thanks for the tip. That's what I get for trying to quote someone after a long day. For those looking for GLBT-affirming churches, I recommend going to www.gaychurch.org to find one in their area. That site does a great job in building a national database for welcoming churches, so take a look.

[Melissa]

Thanks David.  I think I will check out one of these churches.

Melissa

[Suzy]

Sadly, so many Christians have more in common with the hateful religious leaders who demanded the crucifixion of Christ than with Christ Himself.

His message was simple: "Love God, love people." Too often, we Christians have forgotten that. As a result, we've deeply wounded and even killed people... physically and metaphysically... to the point that even calling myself a Christian makes me one of the "bad guys." I'm keenly aware of the deadly words that have been hurled by my brethren.

And where there is injustice, especially injutice in the name of "Chrisitanity," it is evil at its purest form. Such injustice has hijacked a faith centered on love and twisted it for their own bigoted hate. That's not Christianity. That's just pure evil. Many of those people, just like the Pharisees, believed they were doing God a favor. Christ called such people "den of vipers" and "bleached tombs." I think it fits.

I believe Christ preached love, tolerance, justice, and equaity. And so will I. My boundaries are narrow. Beat me up, slap me, or even crucify me. My message will remain the same: God is love.

I won't try to compensate. I'm not a fool. But I'll still write about the grace and love of God. My writings are for everyone.

David,
Thank you so much for these words.  These read almost verbatim from some of my posts.  Please keep up the good work.  And thank you for your courage.  Please never give in to those legalisms which will dilute the gospel, and keep it from being heard by those whom Christ cared for, and still cares for today.  You are right in that there are those who need some really good news, yet feel it cannot possibly be for them, because of what some have done, supposedly in the name of Christ.  The grace of Christ is a radical thing, and except for pockets of illumination, I do not think the church understands what it means. 

Peace,
Kristi

[Hazumu]

David, thank you for being here.

I'm truly afraid of the bigots who justify their attitude and behavior towards the GLBT community as being Christian.  You will have your work cut out for you with this group.  But I hope that in the end you do convince most if not all of us w2ounded by religious intolerance that there ARE Christians out there who do care and who do live a life of love and acceptance for all.

I'm afraid you won't find me in any pews anytime soon.  But rest assured I am following a spiritual path, as unconventional as it may seem to mainstream fundavangelists.

Allow me to add my-

Welcome!

Karen

[Brianna]

You will have your work cut out for you with this group.  But I hope that in the end you do convince most if not all of us w2ounded by religious intolerance that there ARE Christians out there who do care and who do live a life of love and acceptance for all.

I don't know Karen. I don't have any doubt that there are caring Christians that are decent people. Some of the most supportive people of my transition have been Christians. I don't think that's the issue. I think the question is "What intrinsic worth lies in the Christian belief system?"

Here is my opinion.

Transsexualism is primarily a health care issue. But it's also something that really makes you consider some difficult things - harder things than even gays have to contemplate. It made me come to a strong conclusion that God is just a lie, and the people that believe in him do so out of psychological need and projection.

This belief is absolutely as valid, and should be respected - especially since it's based on evidence and not something unprovable - like faith.

I guess my question is this. What do you think transsexuals would get from subscribing to the belief system that oppresses us? It's a flawed analogy, but this seems like "Uncle Tom's Cabin" to me. Come act like the civilized Christian white man and be a house slave and we'll deem you with a modicum of respect.

It's funny. In your response to me you tell me you respect my boundaries of not wanting any part in your private beliefs. Yet you call my views towards Christians "extremly bitter" and "angry." You tell me you will pray for me. It's the same "Let me constantly insinuate that beliefs are right" song and dance, and I feel it pushes people away.

Again, I respect your belief system. For me, it was a hard lesson in being a woman - respect the right of people to have opinions that differ from yours. But I don't agree with it or want to be subjected to it.

Bri

[Julie Marie]

David, while reading your post, tears started welling up in my eyes.  At a personal level I have been rejected by so-called Christians, mostly in my own family.  I didn't realize how much pain there was in my heart because of that.  And they justify their rejection of me because in their eyes I am a sinner.

I was raised Roman Catholic.  In many senses I had it shoved down my throat.  I would attend church regularly, sometimes daily, because I believed God would love me more if I did. 

As I got into my teen years I began to see a pattern that eventually turned me away from the Catholic church.  After the reading of the gospel, the priest would then begin asking for money.  I looked around and saw this beautiful ornate building I was in.  I saw real gold, expensive stained glass windows, carved marble statues all in a perfectly maintained church.  Yet every sermon they talked incessantly about needing more money.  They were barely able to get by on what was being donated.  The monsignor was the worst. 

One day I stayed after to talk to some friends.  As I was walking home I passed the rectory.  The grass was meticulously groomed, bushes perfectly trimmed.  Not a leaf or blade of grass on the sidewalks.  I heard a car approaching from the driveway and I saw a brand new Cadillac approaching.  The driver was the priest who had just been telling his flock how poor they were.  At that point I began questioning my religion.

As time went on I heard things that were far more disturbing to me than begging for money you don't really need.  They talked about the evils in the world and there was a hint of one of those evils being me.  Not me in particular but people who are "different".  They need to be eliminated! 

When I read about the life of Jesus Christ I never see him rejecting people or being intolerant of them.  He accepted all people and that's how he helped them.  He loved his fellow man unconditionally.

Today you see the religious right bashing people they don't even know.  I am a transsexual.  Those who know me will tell you I am anything but evil.  I want to help people.  That's what makes me feel alive.  I care for all living things.  I can't even kill an insect.  Yet the religious right brands me a pervert, a deviant, a child molester, a street-walker.  And not one of them has ever taken the time to get to know me.  Yes, they are hypocrites.  They long ago lost the true meaning of being a Christian.  Is it any wonder why I have no desire to join their faith?

I can't say if I'll ever become involved in organized religion again.  I believe in God and life after death.  And I believe I will be judged by the way I have treated God's creations.  For now, that's my religion.

Thank you so very much for your letter.  Your heartfelt sincerity is obvious and it touched my soul.

Julie

[gennee]

David, while reading your post, tears started welling up in my eyes.  At a personal level I have been rejected by so-called Christians, mostly in my own family.  I didn't realize how much pain there was in my heart because of that.  And they justify their rejection of me because in their eyes I am a sinner.

I was raised Roman Catholic.  In many senses I had it shoved down my throat.  I would attend church regularly, sometimes daily, because I believed God would love me more if I did. 

As I got into my teen years I began to see a pattern that eventually turned me away from the Catholic church.  After the reading of the gospel, the priest would then begin asking for money.  I looked around and saw this beautiful ornate building I was in.  I saw real gold, expensive stained glass windows, carved marble statues all in a perfectly maintained church.  Yet every sermon they talked incessantly about needing more money.  They were barely able to get by on what was being donated.  The monsignor was the worst. 

One day I stayed after to talk to some friends.  As I was walking home I passed the rectory.  The grass was meticulously groomed, bushes perfectly trimmed.  Not a leaf or blade of grass on the sidewalks.  I heard a car approaching from the driveway and I saw a brand new Cadillac approaching.  The driver was the priest who had just been telling his flock how poor they were.  At that point I began questioning my religion.

As time went on I heard things that were far more disturbing to me than begging for money you don't really need.  They talked about the evils in the world and there was a hint of one of those evils being me.  Not me in particular but people who are "different".  They need to be eliminated! 

When I read about the life of Jesus Christ I never see him rejecting people or being intolerant of them.  He accepted all people and that's how he helped them.  He loved his fellow man unconditionally.

Today you see the religious right bashing people they don't even know.  I am a transsexual.  Those who know me will tell you I am anything but evil.  I want to help people.  That's what makes me feel alive.  I care for all living things.  I can't even kill an insect.  Yet the religious right brands me a pervert, a deviant, a child molester, a street-walker.  And not one of them has ever taken the time to get to know me.  Yes, they are hypocrites.  They long ago lost the true meaning of being a Christian.  Is it any wonder why I have no desire to join their faith?

I can't say if I'll ever become involved in organized religion again.  I believe in God and life after death.  And I believe I will be judged by the way I have treated God's creations.  For now, that's my religion.

Thank you so very much for your letter.  Your heartfelt sincerity is obvious and it touched my soul.

Julie

Julie, you are so right when you stated that Jesus loves people unconditionally. That's the whole idea of being a Christian. Matthew, one of his disciples, was a hated tax collector. Jesus forgave Peter for denying Him. Jesus forgave those who crucified Him. THAT is love. This is how I try to live my life.  I will share more of my revelations as a trans person in another blog.

Gennee