A believer who thinks we have been duped.

[MrTesto]

I think there is value in the struggle with a God who has disappointed us; whose actions and manifestations of power confuse us, or worse, hurt us; and whose self-identified representatives abuse those who are specifically named as most deserving of compassion, love, and respect. The struggle you are posting about could be seen as a form of prayer.

For myself, if I didn't care so much about God, and if I didn't have the awareness that things could be better, and should be - I wouldn't challenge, or struggle, or get angry with the injustice. I would just walk away. OP, you are not just walking away, but rather staying engaged with God, and in a relationship with God. Pointing out hypocrisy of how people misuse the institutions of the church, and scripture, is a form of prophetic witnessing.

Like Jacob, keep wrestling. And do not loosen your grasp until you know the blessing in the struggle.

[Julie Wilson]

No, I don't think it is an issue of faith at all. Why worship something that is inherently evil? god is inherently evil. Everything it says is suspect.

And why not look at the real world in relation to religion? No my reasoning is sound. You don't actually need a church to believe in your god. So much wealth is tied up in institutions that don't work for us. They don't do much to further our basic compassion and humanity. We have this archaic religious text whose relevance today is very questionable. It causes more trouble that it helps. You can't whitewash it all by saying it is a matter of faith - people say we should take it on faith that we don't know gods plan. I say it is pretty obvious his plan is messed up.

It is all very well worrying about your spiritual salvation - but it is rubbish is you can't look after your own in the here and now, to live with compassion and tolerance. You can't look at this life as insignificant next to eternity. Otherwise what is the point? No what you do now matters.

I say down with religion.  If I ever meet god I will give him a hug and tell him he is a misguided idiot.  If the word of the gospel is true then god is mentally ill.

I don't discount people who do good in gods name. But for every one of those there are two who do good in the name of compassion and humanity - check out Buddah, now there was an amazing man. God is no requirement for a compassionate good life.

I fact I think god is a challenge to our humanity and compassion, I think he makes it harder to love, harder to be ourselves, harder to truly be free of misogynistic B.S.

Best post I have ever read on the subject matter.  +1,   A+

[Julie Wilson]

No matter what anybody can say, or what people might do, the Word of the Gospels is true.

Andi

Imagine an abusive husband who uses fear-tactics to keep his wife at home.  The husband is effectively 'abandoning', never home, always out somewhere but he demands that his wife stay in the house, alone, avoiding "sin".  The wife spends her entire life in the house, fearing death her whole life for the slightest offense and constantly begging forgiveness.  The husband is never anywhere to be seen and the woman's cries for help go unanswered.

One day when she is thinking of leaving her husband a messenger shows up and tells her.  "Your husband loves you so much that if you ever even think of leaving him he will come in the clouds, to judge the living and the dead...  I mean, he will show up and he will tell you that the reason he is choking you to death or burning you with fire is because he loves you so much, and then once you are dead he will give you CPR, bring you back to life and then beat you to death again, maybe choke the life out of you or tear off all your skin, rip off your arms and legs, gouge out your eyes, rip out your intestines and burn you with fire.  Then he will be sure to keep you alive so you can suffer in eternal torment.  The only other sounds you will hear besides your own screaming will be the screams of women, children, babies and men, being tortured eternally of course because god loved them so much that he threw them an ultimatum and he always hurts the ones he loves."

Just my two cents, my opinion... for what it's worth.

I have known a lot of people who only believed something because some body else believed in it.  They spent their entire lives making excuses for their god.  Seems like some suspect pie in the sky to me.

Oh and btw, a relationship requires the effort of two people.  If you do all the calling, all the emailing and your friend never approaches you, never returns your calls, never sends you a birthday card, never visits you...  that's not a relationship or a friend.  And if your friend tells you that if you stop making the effort that he will finally show up and kill you, that is even less of a friend.

[Annah]

I have known a lot of people who only believed something because some body else believed in it.  They spent their entire lives making excuses for their god.  Seems like some suspect pie in the sky to me.

I also have known a lot of people who believe in something because they chose to make a decision based on faith to believe in something higher than themselves.

I have also known a lot of people who do not make excuses for God. To make excuses for God would assume that God cannot take care of God's self and needs to rely on other people to bail God out.

Oh and btw, a relationship requires the effort of two people.  If you do all the calling, all the emailing and your friend never approaches you, never returns your calls, never sends you a birthday card, never visits you...  that's not a relationship or a friend.  And if your friend tells you that if you stop making the effort that he will finally show up and kill you, that is even less of a friend.

True, relationships do require two people. For those who are spiritual, the second one is God or a Goddess or whatever diety or spirit they follow.

Since you do not believe in such things then you will naturally assume there is no one on the other side. For those of us who do believe in such things we do know there is another. And we can feel that love, whether through prayers, answers of prayer, worship, being around other people who share the same faith, reading texts showing God's love, etc etc. But again, since you do not believe in such foolishness then you will never believe any of us when we say we do have a relationship with God.

God has helped me in so many ways, it would require a novel no..several volumes of books to write in the things God has helped me through. My only wish, as a pastor, is to help others who approach me wishing to experience this faith.

You either have it or you don't. No sense whatsoever trying to convince the other on this one.

PS.

My God doesn't strangle me, burn me up with fire, leave me to die and then bring me back to life again (only to peel my flesh off, give me CPR etc etc). You either have a very distorted view (and me saying "distorted" ...I am using a very conservative descriptor) of whatever theology you had taken that from or you need to scale back on those Hellraiser movies.

[Julie Wilson]

Well I was replying to someone who said that the bible is true.  So that is where I was getting my kookie ideas from, the bible.  You know.. the god who says it is a sin for men to lay with other men or wear women's clothing, etc. etc.  The god who spent so much time killing people in the old testament and then sent his only son to his death in the new testament.  The one who burned Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and threw Adam and Eve out of paradise because Eve ate an apple.  The god who flooded the earth to murder everyone except for a drunk named Noah, etc. etc.

[Sarah Louise]

Not believing is your right Nooneson, but there are many of who do believe.  I personally feel your responses are somewhat over the top.

[Brooke777]

I completely agree with Annah. Well said.

[Annah]

Well I was replying to someone who said that the bible is true.  So that is where I was getting my kookie ideas from, the bible.  You know.. the god who says it is a sin for men to lay with other men or wear women's clothing, etc. etc.  The god who spent so much time killing people in the old testament and then sent his only son to his death in the new testament.  The one who burned Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and threw Adam and Eve out of paradise because Eve ate an apple.  The god who flooded the earth to murder everyone except for a drunk named Noah, etc. etc.

The Bible was written by men in cultures of thousands of years ago. If you based your knowledge 100% of how YOU interpret the Bible concerning who God is then that is your own issue.

When I read the Bible, i see a collection of examples that represent's the humanity of the world.

I see tragedy, violence, love, kindness, charity, racism, compassion, remorse, forgiveness, bigotry, understanding, grace, etc etc

It is to show humanity who we are and what we are capable of when we make wrong decisions and right decisions. God did not come to earth to write down God's opinions and then formed it into the Bible. Women and men throughout the ages picked up their quills, hammers, inks, and wrote down their understandings, convictions or accounts.

Also, we reflect on the Bible based on how we view the world around us. You gave us an account of a scene from Hellraiser to validate your opinions on the Bible which tells me you hold people who have faith in very small regard.

When I reflect on the Bible I read the teachings of Christ to love your neighbor as yourself, to feed the hungry, to cloth the naked, to give shelter to the homeless. I see Christ showing that humanity has the ability to accomplish wonderful things if they only love their neighbor as themselves. And that's how I see it. A time of hope where people can respect each other. That reflects who I am because I am optimistic and hopeful.

[peky]

When I reflect on all the books I read, I realize that I do not need to belive in God or in any religion in order to love your neighbor as yourself, to feed the hungry, to cloth the naked, to give shelter to the homeless.

[Vicky]

The poet and philosopher Rabindranath Tagore who was a Maronist Christian made two rather pointed statements that I think apply here!! 

"I am able to love my God because he has given me the power to deny Him."

"While God waits for his temple to be built of love, men bring stones."

Annah has made some excellent points, and Tekla's cite from Jeremiah is also right on.

[Annah]

"I am able to love my God because he has given me the power to deny Him."

Very VERY profound.

[Kendall]

Sometimes I do have doubt. Sometimes all the injustices just doesn't make sense. At dark times I find myself reading isaiah 53 and to me even though this was written much earlier than jesus it to me means only him.

Kendall

[peky]

Sometimes I do have doubt. Sometimes all the injustices just doesn't make sense. At dark times I find myself reading isaiah 53 and to me even though this was written much earlier than jesus it to me means only him.

Kendall

Clearly all about a man or prophet who lived before Isaiah. Who do you think Isaiah was alluding?

[Julie Wilson]

I don't remember what I said in my previous post or what I was feeling at the time.

I will say that I allow for the possibility that there is an intelligence to the Universe.  Sometimes when I have meditated it is like I have downloaded information that I never learned.  If so where did it come from?  I do believe that man has created god in his own image.  I believe that people who wrote stories and poems (etc.) about god (and etc.) projected their own feelings, motivations and emotions onto the god they were attempting to define.

And of course everyone has their own variation or theme on god and so those who agreed or were able to exercise power collected people unto themselves and indoctrinated them with their god theme or god variation.

If there is a god I don't know if it is even aware we exist.  Or maybe god exists in all of us as part of our being, god in embryo, part of our evolutionary process?  And maybe all beings are somehow connected and that connection is "god".  Therefore when we are connected we feel "good" and when we separate ourselves from others with our feelings or our actions we feel out of touch with "god".

It is completely normal for primitive people to see the earth errupt and without real understanding to attribute a volcano or a tornado or a tsunami to an angry god up in the sky, bent on seeking retribution.  Primitive people who don't understand how things work come up with stories about how things work in order to explain those events.  It is a well-documented and well-known aspect of the human race.

Is there a god?  Does it matter if there is or not?

[Snowpaw]

I thought hell was a creation of the dark ages? I see people speaking of hell but I thought that was another creation by the people who were in power back when.

Honestly though, I mostly dislike religion...HOWEVER. I know Christ died for me. I don't go to church, like someone said, I prefer the one on one thing. The God I love is loving, not the fire and brimstone guy. That guy is a douche.

[Cindi Jones]

I think it is unhealthy to worry about religion. This is something we coddle and burp our whole lives. It leads and defines us. There was a time when moving from one faith to another (or one denomination to another) would send you to hell. That is no longer the case. Our society has changed. Find your comfort zone. If you can find others who feel the same as you, go for it. If you believe in a deity, rest assured, that deity will have compassion for you. For those who will spit on you, let it slide. Smile back. Give them a taste of what they profess to believe in.

[justmeinoz]

My personal Jury are still out, but I read a quote from Elie Wiesel that made me think.
He described how the Nazis in Auschwitz hung a child, and one of the prisoners asked where God was while such a thing was happening.
A prisoner who was a Rabbi answered,"up there on the scaffold." 
I am still trying to find my own interpretation of that statement, as it can be taken several ways.

Karen.

[peky]

My personal Jury are still out, but I read a quote from Elie Wiesel that made me think.
He described how the Nazis in Auschwitz hung a child, and one of the prisoners asked where God was while such a thing was happening.
A prisoner who was a Rabbi answered,"up there on the scaffold." 
I am still trying to find my own interpretation of that statement, as it can be taken several ways.

Karen.

G-d was there witnessing the inequity of man. We tend to forget that evil and good are but man creation. The Universe is dual, our "free will" lies in our ability to create either one of them. G-d by her own accord cannot interfere in the affairs of her own universe untill her plan has been fulfilled.

This thrad reminds me of an story told among my people; it goes like this:
SCENE: Angel revealing the future of human kind

WOMAN: but how about the second coming!
ANGEL: there is no such a thing as a second coming
WOMAN: but my religions says there is going to be a second coming!
ANGEL: perhaps you choose the wrong religion

[Elena G]

God is Satan's ultimate deception...


...and this world is a lie.


























I'm sorry, was that too creepy...? 

[Amazon D]

God is love
LOVE is GOD
so we make a resting place
in our hearts
for LOVE/GOD