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Put out by Occupy Wall Street and consented upon by OccupySD months ago. 8 Tenet

Started by Amazon D, March 28, 2012, 04:51:17 AM

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Amazon D

Put out by Occupy Wall Street and consented upon by OccupySD months ago. 8 Tenets
1) Nonviolent discipline, no matter what. Zero tolerance for any violence whatsoever, including verbal.
2) Unity of message & across orgs and people. There should be a consistent message & demands coming out & activists should know it & share it.
3) There must be a long-term and coherent strategy, not just tactics and actions (no matter how clever) that are not connected in some way.
4) Security forces/police should be seen as potential recruits to movement, not as adversaries. Ultimately they are accountable to the ppl.
5) Keep larger audience (national and international) in mind when framing the message. The goal is to win ppl over, not to alienate.
6) Defensive strategies never win. Don't respond to verbal attacks or hostile propaganda by using the language of the opponent. Reframe.
7) Claim victory whenever possible. It's important for morale and enthusiasm.
8 ) Keep anger/rage in check with humor and solidarity actions.
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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Amazon D

‎""""remember this spring... """"the police are a part of the 99%""""" so please do not alienate them and be in their faces.. >>>>You can protest in places where they won't even show up<<<.. you don't need to make your image worse by doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.. ....try to gain the respect of the police. Try to get the majority of the 99% behind you by ......switching from a radical in the cops face movement ..... to become one of true peace and love and use your heads not your anger..
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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JessicaH

The following is directed at the "movement" and NOT Amazon.

It would be a mistake to assume that everyone on this board supports the beliefs and objectives of the "99%ers."  I personally find it offensive that the group thinks they represent 99% of the population or those that earn (or are given) 99% of the income that is generated in the US or anywhere else.

I fall in about the 97% and I don't have time to go "sit in" somewhere and disrupt others that are generationg the income that is the powerhouse of the most powerful nation in history. I "occupy my job" at the moment which is in a crap-hole part of the world that is only tolerable becasue it has a nice beach and good diving. I work long hours and if I have spare time, I'm looking for other income generating opportunities so I can ensure that I and my family are financially independent and not looking for ways to get money out of the government (tax money earned by someone elses labor).

I was not born into money nor did I have parents that really even pushed me to excell. They didn't pay a dime for my college education or to support me while I went. It was really hard and I did my fair share of eating Ramen Noodles and working over 40 hours a week while going to college full time.

I work hard, make sacrifices and go places that are lonely and way beyond my comfort level to make a living. Too many people have gone soft and don't want to put the time and energy (it's not easy) into making a living yet want all the modern comforts available. I understand there are people with extraordinary circumstances but there are a LOT of people with extraordinary excuses!
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Amazon D

Quote from: JessicaH on March 29, 2012, 07:02:54 AM
The following is directed at the "movement" and NOT Amazon.

It would be a mistake to assume that everyone on this board supports the beliefs and objectives of the "99%ers."  I personally find it offensive that the group thinks they represent 99% of the population or those that earn (or are given) 99% of the income that is generated in the US or anywhere else.

I fall in about the 97% and I don't have time to go "sit in" somewhere and disrupt others that are generationg the income that is the powerhouse of the most powerful nation in history. I "occupy my job" at the moment which is in a crap-hole part of the world that is only tolerable becasue it has a nice beach and good diving. I work long hours and if I have spare time, I'm looking for other income generating opportunities so I can ensure that I and my family are financially independent and not looking for ways to get money out of the government (tax money earned by someone elses labor).

I was not born into money nor did I have parents that really even pushed me to excell. They didn't pay a dime for my college education or to support me while I went. It was really hard and I did my fair share of eating Ramen Noodles and working over 40 hours a week while going to college full time.

I work hard, make sacrifices and go places that are lonely and way beyond my comfort level to make a living. Too many people have gone soft and don't want to put the time and energy (it's not easy) into making a living yet want all the modern comforts available. I understand there are people with extraordinary circumstances but there are a LOT of people with extraordinary excuses!

I agree we shouldn't be blocking small business's from being able to do their business. That is why i support the www.the99declaration.org which is mostly online people preparing for a convention to serve congress a list of grievences to redress which is our right under the constitution. I also know many people can't afford to get to college and many are born in areas of drugs and gangs and can barely survive living let alone get to college. yes a few rare ones do get out and have found their way to college and are now successful but that is not no where near the majority.

I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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JessicaH

* Disclaimer- So that no one tries to take this in a personal direction, I want to clarify AGAIN that this is directed toward "Occupy/99%" not Amazon. Personally, I like Amazon and I'm sure we would have a great time together but I have some friends I don't discuss politics or philosopy with! Open minded and friendly discussion on topics that we all see differently is the only way for us all to grow and understand each other. I am always listening and re-evaluating information as my understanding of things can only come from the facts I have to work with. -----

There is so much HATE for large business' and corporations but (in my opinion) that hate is misplaced. The prime objective of any incorporated "for profit" business is to maximize the return on investment to it's investors.  Most companies operate within the framework of the law which is set by the government.  If there is a clause in the LAW (referred to as a loophole to those that want to make following the law look shady) that is of benefit to ANY business or person, they are a fool to not take advantage of it.

Government corruption is the basis of almost ALL the problems we have in that both sides (left and right) buy votes and influence with tax dollars. If business' or wealthy individuals BREAK the law, then they should face the penalties just like the rest of us. I'd even advocate draconian punishments for government corruption similar to treason (since selling out the interest and rights of the people for personal gain IS treasonous).

College- Anyone in the USA can go to college or trade school if they have a desire and can pass the standards to get accepted into a school. The poorer you and your parents are, the easier it is to get grants and loans to go to college.  If someone doesn't want to "invest in themselves" by taking the loans then why should the taxpayer invest in them any more beyond dirt cheap subsidized education loans????  I graduated with $50k in loans and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

Jobs: There are a LOT of jobs available RIGHT NOW! The problem for most is they don't have the skills to do "those" jobs. If you are going to go school for 2-4 years and load yourself with debt, make sure you are going to have a marketable, in demand skill when you finish or you will be screwed.  The market doesn't care what you WANT to do or what your FRIENDS are studying.

After finishing school, keep learning and watch trends so you don't become obsolete. There are few jobs classifications that just suddenly "dissapear" without warning.  We are all responsible for ourselves and there is only so much extra weight that the system can carry at any time. I'd love to do a urinalysis on all of the "occupiers" to see if they could pass a drug screen which most good jobs require....

And for anyone who want's to blame lack of education on the funding of school (the districts with the highest $ spent per student do the very worst), please tell me how kids in China and  India can learn advanced mathmatics in a classroom with nothing but a chalkboard. No air-con, high tech displays, etc? 

After spending time in Africa, I have truly gained a new meaning of what a "necessity" is and what lack of opportunity is. There is still SO MUCH opportunity for ANYONE in the US. You just have to see it and work for it and you may have to work a lot more than 40 hours a week or do something you don't like.
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Berserk

Quote from: JessicaH on March 31, 2012, 06:22:01 AMAnd for anyone who want's to blame lack of education on the funding of school (the districts with the highest $ spent per student do the very worst), please tell me how kids in China and  India can learn advanced mathmatics in a classroom with nothing but a chalkboard. No air-con, high tech displays, etc?

Class in both those nations play huge roles, and not all children have the opportunity to go to school in those nations. I see Americans time and again making arguments against various rights issues simply because they believe that someone has it worse and therefore Americans should not complain about the injustices in their own countries. This mentality of "don't blame the government, banks or large corporations for systematically screwing over the rest of the population. No! Blame the poor for being so damned lazy!" is utterly ridiculous, and the "rags to riches" story that keeps poor Americans patriotic only works for a relative few. Success in most cases has little to do with laziness versus industriousness. Many people who work their asses off day in and day out and still remain poor. Capitalism and the US is no meritocracy. It's a system of privilege and the more privilege a person has (meaning born white, male, able-bodied, the family you're born into, the region you're born into, mental disabilities, the more you conform to a certain understanding of citizenship and so on) the easier it may be for them to climb the social ladder. However, there are still many people in North America born into absolutely dismal situations. The American government does little to help its population.

The public education system in the US is one of the absolute weakest in the Western world. While some may be able to afford to go to American version of "college," they cannot afford to go to the caliber of Universities that are available elsewhere in the West for only a fraction of the price it would cost them in the US. In Northern Europe, systems of cheap or public funded universities are only a part of the piece of the puzzle that creates a society that is more educated, sees less homelessness and unemployment. In most of continental western/central Europe the situation is the same or similar. Public education, public healthcare, more attention to at risk youth, more focus on rehabilitation, and more focus in general upon public services that help people succeed tend to show their benefits in most nations that include them.

Quote from: JessicaH on March 31, 2012, 06:22:01 AMAfter spending time in Africa, I have truly gained a new meaning of what a "necessity" is and what lack of opportunity is. There is still SO MUCH opportunity for ANYONE in the US. You just have to see it and work for it and you may have to work a lot more than 40 hours a week or do something you don't like.

Again, just because certain areas of the world live in dismal circumstances, doesn't mean similar circumstances don't exist in the US. As a non-American I'm always shocked to see how some people are living over there. In some cases it actually does seem quite comparable to what some call "developing nations."

Personally, I am not a fan of the Occupy movement, however, not for the reasons you stated above. What I dislike about the Occupy movement is the assumption that the 99% consist of one class. The middle classes may be feeling more of crunch in the current economy, but it is the low income and homeless classes who had it bad before and continue to have it bad. The struggles of the most marginalised aren't the struggles of the majority of the Occupy supporters. If Occupy wants to do something useful, it should begin focusing on how it can make life better for those who have to deal with sub-standard living conditions. American students, for example, would be better off protesting university tuition prices, much like students in Montréal, the UK and elsewhere. They should care more about the quality and cost of education and their own futures. In many respects, Occupy is an extremely classist movement that doesn't seem to recognise the various intersections of oppression in our societies. You cannot form a movement claiming to speak for everyone, or under the premise that you are speaking for everyone. There's a reason there haven't statistically been as many people of colour and low income people showing up to Occupy as there have been white union workers and middle class students.

I also don't think that Occupy's goal is going to be attained any time soon, nor is it the way to go about attaining it.
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Rubberneck

^ The neo-facist regime has only just revealed itself. The smaller houses have only just in recent years jostled for position before the night descended on the rest of us. Yes it'll be a while I'm afraid.
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Edge

I have nothing against individuals who support the occupy movement. I just don't understand the movement.
As one of the poor people in Canada, I must admit that the occupy movement kind of annoyed me when I saw a bunch of young, middle class students hanging around in a park for weeks with vaguely worded signs up about the "99%." At the time, they didn't even have a goal. Do they have a goal now? Do they have a plan to reach this goal?
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tekla

Occupy is NOT a movement, not even close.  Movements have organizations, 'leaders', goals and all that kind of stuff.  Occupy has none of that.  What Occupy is though is a shot across the bow and people can ignore it - or casually dismiss it - but like ignoring the navy cutter who just did that to your sailboat, you're moving into an area of great peril.    Most revolutions and uprisings start not out of some fervent ideological premise with clear goals and objectives, but far more along the line of Howard Beale in Network, they tend to start because of bunch of people who are 'mad as hell and are not going to take it anymore' start saying exactly that, and finding others who agree.

But they do find common ground and there are issues that Occupy supporters are beginning to organize around including:
- Corporate 'personhood' - specifically in regards to access to government, manipulation of legislation, and subversion of the basic democratic process

- Corporate bailouts - specifically for the high-flying financial manipulators who got the bail outs, while being the exact cause of the problem in the first place

- A lack of justice - specifically regarding those financial manipulations.  Sure everyone remembers 9-11, the one in 2001, but do you remember 9-11 in 2008?  There was a run began on that day, one that lead to the current economic collapse, yet were are the investigations and hearings?  Where are the indictments?  Only large financial corporations could have done that, it's beyond the ability of any individuals to make a run on the Treasury of the United States, and even people as high up as Tim Geithner, the Secretary of the Treasury, say so. 

Paul Krugman wrote in The New York Times article "The Panic of the Plutocrats."
     What's going on here? The answer, surely, is that Wall Street's masters of the universe realize deep down how morally indefensible their position is. They're not John Galt. They're not even Steve Jobs. They're people who got rich peddling complex financial schemes, that far from delivering clear benefits to the American people, helped push us into a crisis whose aftereffects continue to blight the lives of tens of millions of their fellow citizens. Yet they paid no price.
     Their institutions were bailed out by taxpayers with few strings attached. They continue to benefit from explicit and implicit federal guarantees. Basically, they're still in a game of heads they win; tails, taxpayers lose. And they benefit from tax loopholes that in many cases have put people with multimillion-dollar incomes paying lower tax rates than middle-class families. This special treatment can't bear close scrutiny, and therefore, as they see it, there must be no close scrutiny.


Or even a simpler form of justice, I mean if you want to do a urinalysis on all of the "occupiers" to see if they could pass a drug screen which most good jobs require, how about running the same tests on the brokers, financiers and racketeers who set all of that up?  How about a making all the members of the boards of directors pee in a cup in order to get their bail-out?   Think all of them would pass?  Or were they just doing more expensive drugs?

There is a reason why they occupied Wall Street and not Lenox Ave and W. 125th Street.

- Below the surface much of this is also driven by something that has been going on since the 1980s, and that's a steady and growing inequality of wealth distribution.  This lies at the heart of the problem and driving much of the dissatisfaction and as it continues to grow, so too will the number of people who feel like they've been cheated.  We've gone from a largely middle-class nation to one where a constantly increasing underclass seems to be a permanent feature.

And the fact that it's not organized, that it happened organically all over the US and in many places throughout the world ought to be most concerning.  What exactly happens if they do get organized?



There is so much HATE for large business' and corporations but (in my opinion) that hate is misplaced. The prime objective of any incorporated "for profit" business is to maximize the return on investment to it's investors.

If that is true (and I don't think it is, it's a narrow and short-sighted view of basic economics) then it's good to remember that maximizing the return on investment to it's investors is ONLY an extremely limited corporate objective.  It is NOT the central objective of American society and culture and certainly NOT the goal of the government of the United States, nor has it ever been. 

(Just to review, the actual goals of the government of the United States are: to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity - somehow our Founding Fathers missed the entire maximizing profits deal entirely.)

So a lot of the dissent comes exactly from the fact that the only thing that some people - many in government - seem to care about is profits first, people second, when we can and do have many other problems and goals to address.  We need a lot more general welfare and a lot less corporate welfare - or at least some equalization between the two.



There are a lot of other misleading claims, so I'll just do one.

And for anyone who want's to blame lack of education on the funding of school (the districts with the highest $ spent per student do the very worst)

Well for sure this explains why Harvard, Yale and Princeton spend a whole lot less per student than the five or so glorified community colleges that Sara Palin went to and get world class scholars and scientists, top jurists, and captains of industry while those glorified community colleges get, well, Sara Palin.  Except we both know that's not true, Harvard et.all. are spending a lot more per student than North Idaho College and Matanuska-Susitna College.

From someone who crunched the numbers a few years ago here is what the top US schools spend per student.
1   Yale                   $ 95,549
2   Caltech            $ 87,892
3   Wake Forest     $ 68,863
4   Wash U            $ 59,634
5   MIT                    $ 59,061
6   Stanford            $ 55,399
7   Johns Hopkins     $ 54,346
8   Harvard             $ 50,878
9   Vanderbilt          $ 45,485
10   U Chicago           $ 42,313
11   Princeton             $ 38,327
12   Dartmouth         $ 37,888
13   Columbia           $ 34,549

Silly schools, don't they listen to you and know that they could spend a lot less and get the same high-quality results as North Idaho College ($4654 spent per student for students like Palin) and Matanuska-Susitna College ($3347 per student) get?  I mean really is a degree from Yale really almost 30X better than Matanuska-Susitna College?  Which school has more ex-Presidents, Federal Judges, corporate leaders, Pulitzer Prize and Noble Prize nominees?  Is a top Yale graduate likely to earn 30X more money than a graduate of Matanuska-Susitna College?  I'll bet that a student at Yale does 30X more quality work when at school.


And you would think rich people would at least know better?  What with them wasting all that money to send their kids to private schools, like going to a school (like the one I went to and still serve on committees and boards so I can speak authoritatively about these numbers and costs) that currently costs $12,680 a year for a 4 year high school.  (That's $50K+ for a high school diploma)  Don't they realize that they could cut that money to the bone and their kids would then be able to compete with the public school kids?  I'm sure that your metric the public HS in my town would have a lot more National Merit Scholars per capita then my silly - and very expensive - HS does.  Oh wait, my high school has more National Merit Scholars with less than 1000 students then do the 3 public 3 year HS (total student population 10K+) COMBINED.  Year in and year out.  For the last 43 years.  (Oddly enough the school is exactly 43 years old.)

Moreover, and as a business person I'm sure you know, that all expenditures are not equal.  Many of those very expensive and poorly performing districts are forced to outlay much larger sums of money on things like security, transportation, mandatory lunch programs, special ed, and basic repairs to the physical plant then their counterparts who are in safer areas and whose schools have not suffered from years (if not decades) of 'deferred maintenance' and outright neglect.

For example, my HS - that of the $12K tuition - spends zero on daily transportation, though rather tragically there is (and always has been) a huge parking problem as most students have cars, some of whom are forced to park in a dirt (now gravel) lot and not a paved one.  Nor does it have any costs in providing basic nutrition for it's students.  Our school lunch program is/was pretty much handled by mom making you lunch and/or the local restaurants and fast food joints.  And the only 'free school lunch' that ever went down there was getting one of your pals to put it on his mom's credit card and not your mom's credit card.  The security costs are pretty low too when you can just get rid of trouble-makers and non-performers, a luxury public schools not only don't have, in fact they are mandated under law to do the exact opposite.

Care to know how much money my old HS spends on special ed/special needs students, on remedial programs, or how much they spend on students with behavior/conduct problems, or on kids who don't speak English?  Hey that's easy.  In 43 years they have not spend one single cent on all those things combined.  There simply are no students there who are special ed, or who have behavior problems, or who need remedial work.  If you can't do the work you don't get help, you get out.  But the poorly performing public schools tend to have large programs in those areas, programs that are far more expensive than regular education, and yet have far lower test/SAT/ACT/college graduation rates.  So that each and ever every special ed/needs student radically boosts the costs of per student spending while dragging down any and all performance metrics.

We also have none of the nuisance lawsuits that public school face on a constant basis either (nor the costs involved in dealing with them).  If you don't like the rules and the way the school is run you don't sue, you don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Nor are all costs relative.  Note that 2 of the largest spending schools are engineering/science schools.  Is that some sort of fluke, or is it that in order to have a literature class all you need are some used books and motivated students who did the required reading, (and no amount of money can counter having unmotivated students who didn't do the work) but in order to train nuclear engineers you need nuclear reactors, or a cyclotrons, or liner particle accelerators. 

But even that stuff can be relative too.  Every student at my HS last year had a computer.  Not 'access' to a computer, each and every student had their own personal computer, yet they spent less than $4K on computers last year.  How the hell can a top school spend so little on what is for most schools a necessity?  Easy.  They require - REQUIRE - all students to have a laptop.  The $4K was spent mostly on printers and high-speed wireless networks.  Back in the Dark Ages when I was there we were all required to have our own 10x-15x microscopes.  Because they did not have to provide 30 basic scopes for the science lab they were able to use that money to buy very, very expensive stereoscopic instrument capable of 100x magnification and other lab equipment.  (cool toy that)

At any rate, any claim that the districts with the highest $ spent per student do the very worst) is either deliberately misleading, or intentionally simplistic and designed  to persuade people who don't know better.  Otherwise why would you spend $50K on a college degree from a good school when you could have gone to a community college and only been in debt for $5K all other things (as you imply) being equal.




Oh yeah...not looking for ways to get money out of the government (tax money earned by someone elses labor) is way wrong, only about 40% of federal revenue comes from individual taxes.  So you need about 60% less butthurt about expenditures.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Rubberneck

^I stopped reading after you compared the neo-conservative, fascist economic(clan based corporations), corporative feudal regime with a 'sailboat'. And a few middle class dreamers in a park with a 'navy cutter'. A'shot across the bow'? more like an ant screaming at an elephant.

Oh Tekla. Why will you say anything to keep young people ignorant of what has been taken from them and how it was done?
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tekla

How do I know you've never been shot at?  Or ever heard a navel gun fire?  It won't just freeze you in place, you'll need clean underwear too.  And new eardrums.

And the kind of revolution your talking about, and the language you're using only alienates people, and that's not my goal.  I want a more equatable society, not an equal one because I believe in widespread equity but not any sort of total equality.  So if they want a super legal punishment society then bring those people to justice like anyone else.  Or if you don't care and just want to let it slide, fine, let the student loan debt (about to cross the 1 trillion dollar mark) get bailed out too.

Besides is HOW all that complex?  You spend $90K+ a year educating the people that matter and $3K on the people who don't.

FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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justmeinoz

A good friend from New Zealand pointed out that during the campaign to decriminalise homosexuality there, the anti groups ended up looking like a bunch of Neo-Nazis.
The Gays by contrast had concerts, comedy shows and family sausage-sizzle fundraisers like the local charity groups did.  Everyone supported the gays as they were having all the fun, and the opposition were scary.

Karen.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Edge

Hmm You're right then. Occupy isn't a movement. With no goals, it has nowhere to go.
Also, personally, I find the "shot across the bow" language alienating. I actually do know what it's like to have my life in danger. Occupy doesn't come close and I find it insulting that anyone would compare it like that.
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JessicaH

Tekla- You make some very persuassive arguments and I can't propperly respond at the moment due to the slow internet in remote Mozambique. I will say that comparing undergrad/grad schools with k-12 is misleading since learning much of the basics of matmatics, science, history, etc., simply requires a chalkboard, books and students that want to learn (I don't even know where to begin with the issue of trying to teach children who don't even understand English, in the US).

Part of me wants to say that if kids and parents don't want to learn then why do we have to spend so much trying to force them to, but before I did that, I'd have to really study the subject and do a cost analysis on the cost of NOT doing that. It just seems rediculous that taxpayers have to fund so many scheems to try and force education on people that don't value it.

Special needs... I haven't studied it but I do know that the definition of "special needs" has grown very broad. Again, I'd have to spend a few hours studying the subject to become knowledgeable but I have to admit that the idea of spending 50-60k a year to educate someone who will never be able to tie their own shoes, balance a check book or hold a job- to be wasteful.

If money were no object, why not! But everything boils down to money becasue it is the most liquid of resources and it is not infinite. Resources dedicated in one place mean that resources can't be allocated elsewhere. It seems a real shame that so much more money is spent on the worst 5% than on the best 5%. Which is a better investment for society?
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tekla

OK, I use plainer language.

Most major cities in the US can be shut down by very few people if they are acting in a coordinated effort.  So far these protests have not been coordinated or organized.  And so it might be worth the effort to try to work with them and NOT have them decide to organize and coordinate.

- NYC and SF depend on a few bridges, LA on a the 5/10/110 interchanges - all of which represent major choke points.  It's not a huge deal to wreck a few cars, or just abandon them and back traffic up for miles.  Nothing moving, no cars delivering workers and consumers, no trucks delivering goods and services, no emergency vehicular activity.  Hell, it's almost a daily occurrence in LA as it is without anyone trying.

- SF and a few other places know how a couple of hundred people on bikes can do pretty much the same thing.  Critical Mass was a once a month annoyance in SF until the police tried to crack down.  The next ride, instead of just screwing the financial district, CM went and rode straight to the Market/Van Ness intersection, the result was almost immediate and wide ranging.  In far less than an hour the traffic was backed up on both bridges, all through downtown, and extending out into many of the surrounding neighborhoods.  The mayor had to come out, promise that the cops would lay off, that there would be more funding for bike lanes and paths, and he himself would ride in the next Critical Mass if they would only move away from that intersection and not do that anymore.

- Same with other critical infrastructure.  There is only one way in and out of most major airports, one way in and out of the Port of Oakland, easy to jam up the Port of Long Beach... you get the picture.  And you could get the Longshoremen to join, if you could shut down every port on the west coast = major economic disaster in short order.

- Even if absolutely nothing is going on, and even if there are not a lot of people there, its' damn expensive.  Tucson, which had a piddly Occupy spent an estimated $83,000 on it.  Oakland, which had real problems - which came very close to an all out urban riot - well they spend almost $4,000,000, and that's 4 Mil that Oakland ain't got in the first place.  New York was forced to outlay closer to $6 million.  What would be the cost to NYC if you doubled the numbers, and then doubled them again?  $25 million?  Double the length of the occupation?  $50 million?  How soon before you're talking real money?

- Movin' it up a notch?  Block one of the single-locks on the Mississippi and stop river barge traffic.

- Of course you don't have to do all that kind of radical stuff where you and others could get arrested or hurt and/or killed.  It's so easy, just do nothing.  Don't go to work, don't buy anything.  (in the good old days this was called a General Strike)

That's all.  Just don't buy anything.

Every "Don't Buy Anything" day would take on the average $76 dollars out of the economy per person.  Just start multiplying.  Post 9-11 when everyone stayed home glued to the TV took $11 billion out of the economy, including the loss in stock market wealth -- the market's own estimate arising from expectations of lower corporate profits and higher discount rates for economic volatility -- the price tag approaches $2 trillion.  And we are still feeling the effects of that week and those financial losses a decade later.

And even if the government wasn't listening to the protesters (and they are not), if you started to economically collapse major retail corporations - and back up their suppliers - (how many days could Macy's survive having to open but not sell anything?  Less than two weeks is my guess, other business much less) - well those people ARE listened to, and they WOULD call, and they would not be happy.  Believe me, when the "corporations are people" folk start getting calls from those corporations they are going to pay attention, or they are not going to get paid.

And I know what you're thinking, "Hey Kat your never going to get everyone to go along."  Yeah, I know, but I also know that profit margins in most of retail are razor thin, if you took 10%, you'd bankrupt most major retailers in short order, it might even take far less than that, say 2%.

The simple fact is the interconnection (humans, supply chains and infrastructure) required to keep modern society functioning is not hardened and robust, it is fragile and very delicate.  And you never want to find out exactly how fragile and delicate it really is.
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JessicaH

Most people I know consider "The Occupiers" to simply be far left socialist who mainly want to "redistribute the wealth" using the tax system. It's all about shirking personal responsibility and blaming someone else. After all, it's very hard for most people to look in the mirror and say, "it's your fault", and politicians KNOW they aren't going to buy your vote telling voters that.

Do we have issues in this country that really need attention? Hell yeah! Start with the political system and make corruption at any level a serious felony. Reform election laws so that a politician has to recuse  his power and influence if someone has given so much to his campaign.

Maybe we need to make it so that no one including a PAC, or corporation can give more than $1,000 to a campaign and make any violations of the law carry some serious teeth. Corporations simply do their best to make money and it is the Federal Government's job (under the commerce clause) that gives them that responsibility.

Wall Street Meltdown- Federal Governments fault for not regulating financial instruments propperly and for reducing standards to a rediculous threshold to buy a house. If you don't have 3-5% for a down payment then you probably don't have the financial sense to be able to manage home ownership and renting would be a better option.

Go after the heart of the problem and not the symptoms. I hate govt. corruption and I have delt with it constantly while in Africa. Bribery is a way of life here and is the exact reason so many places in Africa are going nowhere. Here, you can pay bribes or get big fines or go to jail for a trumped up reason and jail is a good place to get malaria or other diseases from the absolute filth and lack of sanitation of the locals.

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tekla

Q - What did Obama get out of his education that Palin did not get out of hers?
A - Air Force One

I will say that comparing undergrad/grad schools with k-12 is misleading since learning much of the basics of matmatics, science, history, etc., simply requires a chalkboard, books and students that want to learn
Hence, the even longer bit about the difference between the public and private HS in my home town where costs are absolutely equated with outcomes.

I don't even know where to begin with the issue of trying to teach children who don't even understand English, in the US
1. We don't have a national language, by design
2. By law many Western States have bilingual requirements for English and Spanish, and that's not a modern deal, it goes back to the Great War for Empire in the mid 1800s.
3. The special school in SF - Newcomer High - that is specifically set up to work with those students consistently blows the other schools out of the water on test scores, particularly in math and science.

if kids and parents don't want to learn then why do we have to spend so much trying to force them to, but before I did that, I'd have to really study the subject and do a cost analysis on the cost of NOT doing that.
Well just in cost accounting terms it cost more to incarcerate people then to send them to Harvard, and not having an education ain't leaving much more than crime as a way of life as a way to make a living.

But - and this is the reason that people tend not to trust business people in politics - there is a lot more to life than a bottom line.  There are lots of costs to the community, to the society, to the culture and in fact to the civilization, you can't cost account the quality of life, yet it doesn't take a fantastic imagination to understand the higher the number of uneducated criminals around, the lower the general quality of life.

The basic fact that their parents don't value education makes it all that much more important to attempt to insure that they do.  Poverty - and the astronomical costs of it - is generational.

It seems a real shame that so much more money is spent on the worst 5% than on the best 5%.
It would be tragic if it were true.  But that's why Obama's education cost a lot more than Palin's did.

Most people I know consider "The Occupiers" to simply be far left socialist who mainly want to "redistribute the wealth" using the tax system.
Then I guess most people you know are not knowledgeable about the protests, and the protesters.  First, there are not that many socialists around.  Second, most of the points of Occupy deal with fairness and equity, not redistribution.  I'm sure that many lose affiliations of millionares and billionares are spending their weekends burning effigies of Warren Buffet, but he's right when he says that it's silly for him to pay a lower rate of income tax than his secretary does.

Elizabeth Warren put it very well, and I'm going to bold it because I think it's a pretty focused statement of public interest and fairness:
     There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there — good for you!
     But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that maurauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea — God bless. Keep a big hunk of it.
     But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.


I've always said that doctors who fight against 'socialized medicine' after going to public schools, public universities, public medical schools, trained in public hospitals, using drugs and methods developed with public research money, and now practicing in public hospitals are picking one hell of a time to decry 'socialism.'

Here, you can pay bribes or get big fines or go to jail for a trumped up reason
Well, at least they got something out of colonialism.  And sure, coming from the US, where we hire people, give them a salary, and expect them to do the job, the fact is in most of the world these jobs don't pay anything other than what they collect.  Your used to paying upfront, they are more of a pay as you go system.  And it's not really a 'bribe' (though it seems that way to you), it's just what they see as the cost of doing business there.  When I was in the Mid-East it wasn't even called a bribe, they called it baksheesh and though of it as something much closer to a tip then a bribe.
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tekla

I can't propperly respond at the moment due to the slow internet in remote Mozambique

The reason the internet is so fast in most of the rural areas in the US is because it was the states considered it infrastructure and built it.  You know, socialism.  Matter of fact the bones of the internet were built by DARPA and the DOE, you know, more socialism.
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Semiopathy

Quote from: tekla on April 09, 2012, 11:26:19 PM

Elizabeth Warren put it very well, and I'm going to bold it because I think it's a pretty focused statement of public interest and fairness:
     There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there — good for you!
     But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that maurauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea — God bless. Keep a big hunk of it.
     But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.


I've always said that doctors who fight against 'socialized medicine' after going to public schools, public universities, public medical schools, trained in public hospitals, using drugs and methods developed with public research money, and now practicing in public hospitals are picking one hell of a time to decry 'socialism.'

There is an important question being left out of the statements here.  Does the factory owner (or the doctor) have a choice?  Take the factory owner.  Sure, lots of people, including the factory owner, paid for  public roads, public education, police, etc.  So what?  The government took their money by force, using threat of fines or incarceration (the loss of property or liberty) against anyone who refused to pay for "public goods."  This does not put the factory workers on a higher moral ground than the owner.  And without the factory, there would be no place for hundreds or perhaps thousands of people to work (and hence pay taxes on public goods).  A factory and the workers it employs can raise the standard of living in a community immensely.  Factories, like money, don't grow on trees; they are made, by choice.  And for all this you want to punish the factory owner?

Now about the doctor, I agree it appears hypocritical; like a public school teacher advocating for the abolishment of public schools, or a politician arguing for smaller government.  But the question for the doctor again is, did he have a choice?  Most schools and universities, certainly the more affordable ones, are government owned.  Government involvement may leave an individual, for various reasons (availability of schools, or affordability, etc.) no choice but to use government services, even when he feels government should not be running schools, or universities, or hospitals, or funding research. Or even paving roads.

What would happen to the factory owner, when the government comes and says "Okay, we've nationalized your factory, you don't have to worry about making profits anymore, because all your operations will be publicly funded from now on."  Should he fight for privately owned factories, even though he is now running a publicly owned factory?  Or should he say, "Well, its not my place, I am after all employed by the government myself and now depend on them for my every need."
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Amazon D

Quote from: Semiopathy on April 10, 2012, 01:33:31 PM
There is an important question being left out of the statements here.  Does the factory owner (or the doctor) have a choice?  Take the factory owner.  Sure, lots of people, including the factory owner, paid for  public roads, public education, police, etc.  So what?  The government took their money by force, using threat of fines or incarceration (the loss of property or liberty) against anyone who refused to pay for "public goods."  This does not put the factory workers on a higher moral ground than the owner.  And without the factory, there would be no place for hundreds or perhaps thousands of people to work (and hence pay taxes on public goods).  A factory and the workers it employs can raise the standard of living in a community immensely.  Factories, like money, don't grow on trees; they are made, by choice.  And for all this you want to punish the factory owner?

Now about the doctor, I agree it appears hypocritical; like a public school teacher advocating for the abolishment of public schools, or a politician arguing for smaller government.  But the question for the doctor again is, did he have a choice?  Most schools and universities, certainly the more affordable ones, are government owned.  Government involvement may leave an individual, for various reasons (availability of schools, or affordability, etc.) no choice but to use government services, even when he feels government should not be running schools, or universities, or hospitals, or funding research. Or even paving roads.

What would happen to the factory owner, when the government comes and says "Okay, we've nationalized your factory, you don't have to worry about making profits anymore, because all your operations will be publicly funded from now on."  Should he fight for privately owned factories, even though he is now running a publicly owned factory?  Or should he say, "Well, its not my place, I am after all employed by the government myself and now depend on them for my every need."

chicken egg issue which came first and which is needed.. both socialism and factories and so people stop complaining and learn to work together and stop letting lobbyist get between us all as they walk away the winners
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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