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Is Life But A Dream ?

Started by Anatta, March 28, 2013, 11:03:22 PM

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Kate G

Quote from: Anatta on March 28, 2013, 11:03:22 PM
Kia Ora

"When we die, do we awake from the daydream that we call life, into true reality ?—or at least into a truer dream ?"

Are we just dreaming ?

Are you in my dream ?

Or am I in yours ?

Sweet dreams :icon_sleep:



Metta Zenda :)


It's a great question.  I can't answer it, yet.  Are you familiar with the idea that we could be a computer generated program?





"To get something you never had, you have to do something you never did." -Unknown
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Kate G on September 25, 2013, 11:37:26 PM

It's a great question.  I can't answer it, yet.  Are you familiar with the idea that we could be a computer generated program?



Kia Ora Kate,

I'm familiar with the concept, but I guess if this is/was the case, my programme malfunctioned and went rogue...The creative nature of the mind is limitless, but some have yet to go beyond what they mistakenly believe to be their limit...

A little food for thought from Alan Watts...This video clip attacks ones senses from two angles...

"Time to wake up"



Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Kate G

Quote from: Anatta on September 26, 2013, 10:50:15 PM
Kia Ora Kate,

I'm familiar with the concept, but I guess if this is/was the case, my programme malfunctioned and went rogue...The creative nature of the mind is limitless, but some have yet to go beyond what they mistakenly believe to be their limit...


Kia Ora Koe,

I have been doing some thinking as to Pride and what Pride is.  People have been talking about their Pride when it comes to being trans. It is my understanding that Pride in that sense is a reaction to shame. Others are ashamed of us or perhaps on some level we are ashamed of ourselves so we adopt Pride as a reaction to shame. We are proud of who we are because otherwise the shame might crush us. But it is all ideas.  Isn't it strange that ideas can become a matter of life and death?  Isn't it strange that ideas can cause such suffering and pave the way for disease and ultimately death?  Ideas are not physical but they can affect our physical health and influence us.  Our ideas can superimpose themselves on our experience and affect reality turning a life experience into a living Hell.

Even in the most honorable sense what is Pride?  Is Pride taken in a job well done?  Compared to what, a job poorly done?  Is Pride then a reaction to a poorly done job?  So maybe Pride is actually a result of making judgments and placing importance upon judgments.  Instead of making a pair of shoes and thinking, "These shoes are attractive and symmetrical, they fit the feet of the wearer and will give years of service."  Instead of that one thinks, "These shoes are superior to any other shoes, I make the best shoes therefore I elevate myself above all other shoe makers."  Which might seem useful if you are trying to sell your product.  The question is then if one experiences Pride then who is the intended consumer?  Who is she trying to sell her ideas to, herself?

Pride is an idea that happens in the mind.  The mind is like a buffer for events that happen outside of the mind except when the mind becomes an alternative to real life experiences.  As a buffer the mind is like a simulation.  The baseball player imagines hitting the ball before he actually hits it.  If the baseball player misses the ball or doubts his success in his mind then he becomes more likely to strike out in real life.  The baseball player could decide in his mind that he can never hit the ball and then logically he would discontinue the sport.  If one decides she is a "looser" in her mind then the rest of her life will tend to play out in a way that is harmonic with her belief.  So what is pride?  Someone believes that trans women are less than other women and that someone communicates this idea to a trans woman.  The trans woman adopts Pride as a means to combat what someone told her about trans women.  So Pride represents a struggle against an idea that was put into the mind by someone else.  The problem is that when we use Pride to battle an idea we create a war in our mind.  We think that Pride is the solution but Pride is just an idea and so was the other idea.  Perhaps we could just examine an idea and then choose to let go of it.  That would save a lot of energy and free up our lives for other things.

Pride begins to lock us into a "reality" and as long as we hold onto the idea of Pride then that reality will begin to superimpose itself upon our own reality and there will be consequences.  More likely than not the victim will begin to experience herself as an idea instead of who she really is.

It is my understanding that there exist alternate realities all around us, one inside of another, inside of another and that in order to shift from one reality to another we must shift our own frequency to match the frequency of the reality we wish to inhabit. I believe that Gandhi said, "If you wish to change the world change yourself."  If reality is virtual, if reality is a computer program then perhaps what Gandhi said begins to make even more sense.  If we can change how we look at the world then the world will change.  If we can change ourselves then the space we inhabit will change.  Some have said that we are consciousness.  That ultimately we are spiritual beings having an Earth experience or a human experience. 

The mind is like a buffer for things that happen in the real world.  The pitcher throws the baseball in his mind before he throws the ball.  If the pitcher experiences a successful throw in his mind, he is more likely to experience a successful pitch in real life.

It has been said by scientists that there is a thing called the observer effect.  That the act of merely observing something influences the outcome of the experiment.





What if where we are now is a product of what we thought before we began having this human experience?

What if meditation and consciousness converts thought from a wave function to a particle function?

Then perhaps one could go from creating patterns of interference that have a broad influence but are perhaps weaker and take more time to influence an environment to something more singular and specific?  What if the computer code becomes conscious of it self, is that enlightenment?  It appears that when matter is broken down into it's smallest particles what you get are bits of information like computer code.



What can be proven?  What can be dis-proven? What can be experienced? What if everything is true? What if everything is untrue?

Pride = Resistance.  Resistance = War. War = Death.

QuoteI was once asked why I don't participate in anti-war demonstrations. I said that I will never do that, but as soon as you have a pro-peace rally, I'll be there.
~Mother Teresa

I doubt if computer code creates anything by being against something. 
"To get something you never had, you have to do something you never did." -Unknown
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Kate G on September 27, 2013, 03:44:07 PM

Kia Ora Koe,

I have been doing some thinking as to Pride and what Pride is.  People have been talking about their Pride when it comes to being trans. It is my understanding that Pride in that sense is a reaction to shame. Others are ashamed of us or perhaps on some level we are ashamed of ourselves so we adopt Pride as a reaction to shame. We are proud of who we are because otherwise the shame might crush us. But it is all ideas.  Isn't it strange that ideas can become a matter of life and death?  Isn't it strange that ideas can cause such suffering and pave the way for disease and ultimately death?  Ideas are not physical but they can affect our physical health and influence us.  Our ideas can superimpose themselves on our experience and affect reality turning a life experience into a living Hell.

Even in the most honorable sense what is Pride?  Is Pride taken in a job well done?  Compared to what, a job poorly done?  Is Pride then a reaction to a poorly done job?  So maybe Pride is actually a result of making judgments and placing importance upon judgments.  Instead of making a pair of shoes and thinking, "These shoes are attractive and symmetrical, they fit the feet of the wearer and will give years of service."  Instead of that one thinks, "These shoes are superior to any other shoes, I make the best shoes therefore I elevate myself above all other shoe makers."  Which might seem useful if you are trying to sell your product.  The question is then if one experiences Pride then who is the intended consumer?  Who is she trying to sell her ideas to, herself?

Pride is an idea that happens in the mind.  The mind is like a buffer for events that happen outside of the mind except when the mind becomes an alternative to real life experiences.  As a buffer the mind is like a simulation.  The baseball player imagines hitting the ball before he actually hits it.  If the baseball player misses the ball or doubts his success in his mind then he becomes more likely to strike out in real life.  The baseball player could decide in his mind that he can never hit the ball and then logically he would discontinue the sport.  If one decides she is a "looser" in her mind then the rest of her life will tend to play out in a way that is harmonic with her belief.  So what is pride?  Someone believes that trans women are less than other women and that someone communicates this idea to a trans woman.  The trans woman adopts Pride as a means to combat what someone told her about trans women.  So Pride represents a struggle against an idea that was put into the mind by someone else.  The problem is that when we use Pride to battle an idea we create a war in our mind.  We think that Pride is the solution but Pride is just an idea and so was the other idea.  Perhaps we could just examine an idea and then choose to let go of it.  That would save a lot of energy and free up our lives for other things.

Pride begins to lock us into a "reality" and as long as we hold onto the idea of Pride then that reality will begin to superimpose itself upon our own reality and there will be consequences.  More likely than not the victim will begin to experience herself as an idea instead of who she really is.

It is my understanding that there exist alternate realities all around us, one inside of another, inside of another and that in order to shift from one reality to another we must shift our own frequency to match the frequency of the reality we wish to inhabit. I believe that Gandhi said, "If you wish to change the world change yourself."  If reality is virtual, if reality is a computer program then perhaps what Gandhi said begins to make even more sense.  If we can change how we look at the world then the world will change.  If we can change ourselves then the space we inhabit will change.  Some have said that we are consciousness.  That ultimately we are spiritual beings having an Earth experience or a human experience.


The mind is like a buffer for things that happen in the real world.  The pitcher throws the baseball in his mind before he throws the ball.  If the pitcher experiences a successful throw in his mind, he is more likely to experience a successful pitch in real life. (Visualisation Techniques use by many sports people)

It has been said by scientists that there is a thing called the observer effect.  That the act of merely observing something influences the outcome of the experiment.

What if where we are now is a product of what we thought before we began having this human experience?

What if meditation and consciousness converts thought from a wave function to a particle function?

Then perhaps one could go from creating patterns of interference that have a broad influence but are perhaps weaker and take more time to influence an environment to something more singular and specific?  What if the computer code becomes conscious of it self, is that enlightenment?  It appears that when matter is broken down into it's smallest particles what you get are bits of information like computer code.


What can be proven?  What can be dis-proven? What can be experienced? What if everything is true? What if everything is untrue?

Pride = Resistance.  Resistance = War. War = Death.

I doubt if computer code creates anything by being against something.

Kia Ora Kate,

Some interesting theories you have there...The mind boggles with possibilities...

If you change the way you look at things-The things you look at change !
And just like the observed in quantum physics, they start to rearrange !  )


Quantum physics is quite interesting, I liken it to the Buddhist concept of "Form is Emptiness-Emptiness is Form" ...Whereas we(like everything else in the universe) are just bundles of vibrating energies in a constant state of flux, held together by karmic glue....

"What 'I' think, 'I' become ! But 'I' am not the thought ! Thought itself is the thinker!

You mentioned that you practiced Zazen, so are you familiar with the five aggregates of 'form' 'consciousness' 'sensation' 'perception' 'habitual tendencies'  that make up the self/ego/I ? Once the five aggregates are broken down (in awareness meditation) what is left to do the clinging, no-thing but the illusion...

http://www.behance.net/gallery/Magic-Self-Moving-Patterns/1606319

Pride=attachment=illusion


Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Kate G


Hello Anatta,

QuoteApparent Motion
Static but moving
Two Zen monks were arguing about a flag being blown by the wind.

One said: 'The flag is moving...'

The other answered: 'The wind is moving!'

The prior of the monastery happened to be passing by. He told them: 'Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving...'

This short anecdote serves to explain that the concept and perception of motion is sometimes ambiguous. It often occurs that we perceive motion where in fact there is none. An everyday example: you are in a train at a station, looking out of the window at another neighboring train that starts moving. At this instant, doesn't it feel like your own train is moving in the opposite direction?
In the world of optical illusions, the term 'apparent motion' or 'illusory motion' (also known as 'anomalous motion illusion') is used to define the appearance of movement in a static image. What makes this kind of illusion so interesting is the fact that you are experiencing movement, although you know that the supposedly moving objects are not moving at all. http://www.behance.net/gallery/Magic-Self-Moving-Patterns/1606319



Our eyes do not see, they are simply tools used by the mind.  The mind sees.  Everything that appears to happen outside of our bodies is being experienced inside of the mind.  The flag that waves in the wind is experienced inside of the mind. If someone were to take your brain out of your head and suspend it inside of a tank of solution connected by wires to a computer and then run a virtual reality simulation without your knowledge, then you would experience that computer generated life as if it were your own.  It would be as real as the life you are experiencing at this moment.  The only way to see past any illusion is to let go of one's attachments.

As for me while I practice Zen meditation and while I have done so now for about five or maybe six years (off and on) all I really know about the subject is http://zmm.mro.org/teachings/meditation-instructions/ and one free class that I took at a monastery.  The first time I meditated successfully was a pretty profound experience because I realized for the first time that I was not my thoughts.  The first time I transitioned and engaged in sexual intercourse with a man who did not know my trans history was a pretty profound experience because I realized for the first time that I was not my ideas.  I'm not here to teach anyone anything, really I am just exploring.


Have a Nice Day :)
"To get something you never had, you have to do something you never did." -Unknown
  •  

Lyric

No, it's not a dream, but I'm pretty sure it's about rowing a boat.
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life." - Steve Jobs
  •  

Kate G

Quote from: Lyric on September 28, 2013, 01:18:49 PM
No, it's not a dream, but I'm pretty sure it's about rowing a boat.


Have you been listening to Wayne Dyer?
"To get something you never had, you have to do something you never did." -Unknown
  •  

dalebert

I've had dreams that were so elaborate and vivid, and I'm a completely different person. They seem to come along with whole memories of places and people that don't match my real life. It's enough to have me wondering occasionally if this life is a dream too and wondering when I'm going to wake up to something else.

Anatta

Quote from: Kate G on September 28, 2013, 01:06:57 PM
Hello Anatta,



Our eyes do not see, they are simply tools used by the mind.  The mind sees.  Everything that appears to happen outside of our bodies is being experienced inside of the mind.  The flag that waves in the wind is experienced inside of the mind. If someone were to take your brain out of your head and suspend it inside of a tank of solution connected by wires to a computer and then run a virtual reality simulation without your knowledge, then you would experience that computer generated life as if it were your own.  It would be as real as the life you are experiencing at this moment.  The only way to see past any illusion is to let go of one's attachments.

As for me while I practice Zen meditation and while I have done so now for about five or maybe six years (off and on) all I really know about the subject is http://zmm.mro.org/teachings/meditation-instructions/ and one free class that I took at a monastery.  The first time I meditated successfully was a pretty profound experience because I realized for the first time that I was not my thoughts.  The first time I transitioned and engaged in sexual intercourse with a man who did not know my trans history was a pretty profound experience because I realized for the first time that I was not my ideas.  I'm not here to teach anyone anything, really I am just exploring.


Have a Nice Day :)

Kia Ora Kate,

And therein lies the paradox of Zen...If one is not their thoughts then who or what are they ? And who or what is it who lets go of attachments ?

Awareness : "There was a young wo/man who said though it seems I know that I know what I would like to see is the "I" that knows 'me' when I know that I know that I know !"

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Lyric on September 28, 2013, 01:18:49 PM
No, it's not a dream, but I'm pretty sure it's about rowing a boat.

Kia Ora Lyric,

Buddhism can be liken to the boat/raft one uses to row across the ocean of Samsara(the dreamlike delussional state-the cycle of rebirth)...Once one arrives on the other shore(one wakes up ) one has no further use for the boat/raft anymore, however if one 'thinks' "This boat/raft was useful and might come in handy later." they are still caught up in the dream...(like when one dreams one as just awoken from a dream only to find they are still dreaming)

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: dalebert on September 28, 2013, 02:12:48 PM
I've had dreams that were so elaborate and vivid, and I'm a completely different person. They seem to come along with whole memories of places and people that don't match my real life. It's enough to have me wondering occasionally if this life is a dream too and wondering when I'm going to wake up to something else.

Kia Ora Dalebert,

Chuang Tzu..... I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky; then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of being a butterfly, or am I a butterfly !

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Kate G

Quote from: Anatta on September 28, 2013, 03:03:11 PM
Kia Ora Kate,

And therein lies the paradox of Zen...If one is not their thoughts then who or what are they ? And who or what is it who lets go of attachments ?

Awareness : "There was a young wo/man who said though it seems I know that I know what I would like to see is the "I" that knows 'me' when I know that I know that I know !"

Metta Zenda :)





Hello Anatta,


What feels true to me is this....

QuoteAnd therein lies the paradox of Zen...If one is not their thoughts then who or what are they ?

One is many is awareness.

Thoughts are intentions.

Intention is like gardening.  One does not plant a garden and then walk away.  A garden requires a gardener.  The gardener is consciousness, the act of gardening is intention.  When one gardens long enough things grow.  The garden exists as an idea and as a process. 

the one who lets go is the unintended.  The guru who sits upon the elephant is let go and the mind becomes the elephant.

Consciousness is infinite. The mind regulates what is infinite into what is possible.  The mind is like a bridge between what is infinite and what we call the human experience.  Sometimes our human experience creates our idea of what is possible but we are infinite beings having a human experience.  When we believe in the human experience and forget who we are then in order to go back to being infinite we let go of finite thinking.  When we are unable to determine what is finite and what is infinite, when we have lost our way and our true sense of self then we let go of thinking and return to our original state, the state of being conscious without judging.

At least this is what feels true to me.

We are spiritual beings having a physical experience.  It is easy to get lost in this physical experience and to forget who we are.  We are love.  Love is what we are.  Love is the only thing that matters.





Another sloppy post tossed together by my intentions, regulated by restrictions.

Have a nice day :)

"To get something you never had, you have to do something you never did." -Unknown
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Kate G on September 28, 2013, 04:08:51 PM


Hello Anatta,


What feels true to me is this....

One is many is awareness.

Thoughts are intentions.

Intention is like gardening.  One does not plant a garden and then walk away.  A garden requires a gardener.  The gardener is consciousness, the act of gardening is intention.  When one gardens long enough things grow.  The garden exists as an idea and as a process. 

the one who lets go is the unintended.  The guru who sits upon the elephant is let go and the mind becomes the elephant.

Consciousness is infinite. The mind regulates what is infinite into what is possible.  The mind is like a bridge between what is infinite and what we call the human experience.  Sometimes our human experience creates our idea of what is possible but we are infinite beings having a human experience.  When we believe in the human experience and forget who we are then in order to go back to being infinite we let go of finite thinking.  When we are unable to determine what is finite and what is infinite, when we have lost our way and our true sense of self then we let go of thinking and return to our original state, the state of being conscious without judging.

At least this is what feels true to me.

We are spiritual beings having a physical experience.  It is easy to get lost in this physical experience and to forget who we are.  We are love.  Love is what we are.  Love is the only thing that matters.





Another sloppy post tossed together by my intentions, regulated by restrictions.

Have a nice day :)

Kia Ora Kate,


If it feels right for you then that's what's important...You make some interesting points which shows you are looking past the finger that points to the moon and directly at the moon...(Not fixated on the finger)...

The mind after all,(according to Buddhism including Zen) is and has always simply been 'knowing'...One can use the mind to understand/know logic, but one can't use logic to understand the mind, and to try to do so can be liken to the dog who suffers from OCD that chases its tail...Does it know it's its own tail when it has caught it ?

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Anatta

Kia Ora Kate,

You might find this short video clip of interest...It's what happens in the brain when 'thinking' takes place..."Thinking in the physiological sense is just movement confined to the brain"

Neurons that fire together wire together...



Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Lyric

Quote from: Kate G on September 28, 2013, 02:04:56 PMHave you been listening to Wayne Dyer?

No, but I hope he rows his gently.
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life." - Steve Jobs
  •  

Kate G

Quote from: Lyric on September 29, 2013, 10:30:38 AM
No, but I hope he rows his gently.


Nice to get some good LOLs this morning :)


"To get something you never had, you have to do something you never did." -Unknown
  •  

Kate G

Quote from: Anatta on September 28, 2013, 08:16:28 PM
Kia Ora Kate,

You might find this short video clip of interest...It's what happens in the brain when 'thinking' takes place..."Thinking in the physiological sense is just movement confined to the brain"






Are you certain?
"To get something you never had, you have to do something you never did." -Unknown
  •  

Avatar0Lyra

If one has never experienced life and only has dreamed, does that not make the dreams life by themselves?
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Kate G on October 02, 2013, 03:20:07 PM

Are you certain?

Kia Ora Kate,

From a purely scientific stand point, in the physical sense yes....

According to the latest scientific findings (neuroscience) thinking basically is just movement/firing of chemicals known as neurotransmitters in the brain...(Hence "movement confined to the brain")

Quote :
"Communication of information between neurons is accomplished by movement of chemicals across a small gap called the synapse. Chemicals, called neurotransmitters, are released from one neuron at the presynaptic nerve terminal. Neurotransmitters then cross the synapse where they may be accepted by the next neuron at a specialized site called a receptor."


Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Avatar0Lyra on October 02, 2013, 04:23:23 PM
If one has never experienced life and only has dreamed, does that not make the dreams life by themselves?

Kia Ora A,

You make a good point...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Kate G

Quote from: Anatta on October 02, 2013, 11:10:34 PM
Kia Ora Kate,

From a purely scientific stand point, in the physical sense yes....

According to the latest scientific findings (neuroscience) thinking basically is just movement/firing of chemicals known as neurotransmitters in the brain...(Hence "movement confined to the brain")

Quote :
"Communication of information between neurons is accomplished by movement of chemicals across a small gap called the synapse. Chemicals, called neurotransmitters, are released from one neuron at the presynaptic nerve terminal. Neurotransmitters then cross the synapse where they may be accepted by the next neuron at a specialized site called a receptor."


Metta Zenda :)


The closer you look, the less you see.





"To get something you never had, you have to do something you never did." -Unknown
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Kate G on October 03, 2013, 01:01:06 AM

The closer you look, the less you see.


Kia Ora Kate,

Tis true, Quantum Physic is 'mind' blowing, and just proving the point made many moons ago by ancient Eastern philosophers  "Form is Emptiness-Emptiness is Form!"

According to the Indian Buddhist teacher and philosopher Nagarjuna, the way that phenomena appear to us is different from the way that they actually exist. Although phenomena appear to exist inherently, they are actually empty of inherent existence. (Quantum Physics - waves, particles and the observer)

The arising of phenomena dependently in relation to their causes and conditions of existence means that phenomena are in cause-and-effect relationships. Phenomena are not inherently the cause of their own existence. The continuation or cessation of phenomena is also dependent upon causes and conditions of existence, and is not inherently existent.

If you disassemble a chariot part by part, at exactly what point does it cease to be a chariot? This is a subjective judgment. Some might think it's no longer a chariot once it can no longer function as a chariot. Others might argue that the eventual pile of wooden parts is still a chariot, albeit a disassembled one.
The point is that "chariot" is a designation we give to a phenomenon; there is no inherent "chariot nature" dwelling in the chariot.

He went on to say that it is incorrect to say that things exist, but it is also incorrect to say that they don't exist. Because all phenomena exist interdependently, and are void of self-essence, all distinctions we make between this and that phenomena are arbitrary and relative. So, things and beings "exist" only in a relative way.





"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
Albert Einstein

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •