Supporting LGB but not T

[Lexi Belle]

You know, those "hard and fast" rules do not always hold.  For some, cross-dressing is a way to cope with their dysphoria.  As such the disconnect between gender identity and sexual phenotype is very real.

And how would you define the gender expression of someone who is non-binary, and dresses variously in whatever styles (male, female, unisex, indeterminate) suits their fancy?

My points exactly!  You can't decide who is a transsexual solely based off how far they're going in the process because some of the time, probably a lot of the time, you'll be amazed at just how serious they are about their femininity.  The only way to know if they are transsexual is by knowing who they are inside, not outside.

[formerMTF]

Supporting LGB but not T is a typical opinion for modern right-wingers and some centrists.

[aibeecee]

German transgender women often describe a overtly resentment especially in lesbian communities.

I think I found a good example of what they mean:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/L_Anon/topic/5192658/1/

Some even say:
"There's no such thing as a Trans lesbian."

And here's something else:
http://www.gcn.ie/Trans_Inclusion

[MaryXYX]

I have just spent the day at an event listed as "An interactive day-long workshop for LGBTQ Christians and their friends".  The morning was a film about the experiences of gay men in the church of Rome.  The afternoon was on the program as "reflections by three LGB spiritual leaders" but I didn't even hear the "B".

[gennee]

Tbh people in my country (UK) still believe a lot of mental illness is a choice. But thanks to awareness, stigma concerning mental illness is being lifted. We need a similar campaign for trans issues.

There's still a lot of education needed. Some LGB folks are still in the dark about transgender people.

[Tessa James]

I will again urge folks to please not draw any lines in the sand.  I found very little support in the LGBT community for being Bi so we too started our own support group in Portland back in 1985.  While we have being transgender in common here at Susan's Place we also have people across the spectrum of orientation.  Many of us do identify as lesbian, gay, Bi, asexual, queer or questioning.  Now Portland OR shines with having a "Q Center" that supports all of us with programs, space, meetings and more.  We have all kinds of groups and events even in our small towns and we have a trans alliance group that recognizes the need to welcome allies, friends and family.

We are very clearly a tiny minority and we will need our allies of all stripes to gain the civil and human rights we fully deserve.  I will continue to strongly support inclusion and the "big tent" approach.

[Dreams2014]

I still say T should stand alone. Of course all allies are welcome. But we shouldn't be attached to such a broad umbrella of people who shun us.

[Shantel]

I still say T should stand alone. Of course all allies are welcome. But we shouldn't be attached to such a broad umbrella of people who shun us.

The GLB folks issues are about sexual preferences, generally they don't and cannot relate to transgender issues and frankly aren't normally friendly toward us in social settings. On a national level when favorable legislation is under consideration, the legislator invariably will consider cutting some sort of compromise providing that the GLB crowd drop the transgender from their legislative request and without a second thought they will throw us under the bus every time and there is no room for forgiveness! Were it not for the fact that most transgender people want to live quietly and move on with their lives post-op, we might have a strong political block with a lot of clout, but I don't see that ever happening. Meanwhile it's an exercise in futility to expect GLB people to carry any water for us ever.

[Ltl89]

I think some people in the lgbt community aren't supportive, but it isn't fully representative.  Bigots exist in every community.  Just because someone is gay doesn't mean they can't have any other prejudice.  Same thing applies to trans people or any other group.  However, practically speaking, the lgbt community does a lot of good. The support group that I frequent is held at an lgbt center.  Without the resources of the gay community, it may not exist.  Plus, I know a lot of lgbt centers hold educational events and have even held seminars to help therapists better understand their trans patients.  Also, many of the informed consent clinics are held at gay health centers like Callen-Lorde.  Would we have the same resources if we branched off?  As for advocacy groups like the human rights campaign, would we have as much aid without their help.   They put a lot of money into our behalf and I've seen the canvassing operations that have been funded mainly by lgbt groups.  Without that aid, you may lose a huge political ally that helps pass laws in our favor.  Much of what we have is thanks to the collective nature of our community.  And whether one sees it or not, the progress that the gay community has made has only made things that much easier for us.  Sure it's frustrating that people can't distinguish us, but do you think we'd be better understood or have made the same societal progress without the assistance of our gay brothers and sisters?  At the end of the day, our differences are real, but we face many of the same battles.  We should fight together for equalities sake and keep improving the world for those who aren't viewed as  "normal" whether that mean cis or straight.  That's just my opinion.

[Ms Grace]

In Australia the reference is more commonly LGBTIQ, I and Q standing for Intersex and Queer.

The TIQ part are generally under represented but is shifting slowly. Of the the LGB section, the Bi people feel underrepresented, of the the LG portion the Lesbians feel underrepresented... in other words it is still largely a "movement" for homosexual men with everyone else tagging along for the ride and the convenience. Again it is shifting, but slowly.

Personally, I've never liked having trans* issues hitched to the sexual preference cart, even though as a trans woman my orientation is other women. Gender dissonance isn't an issue of sexuality so why conflate one with the other? However, given that it provides some kind of umbrella, shared resources and a modicum of recognition I guess it's better than nothing!

[Shantel]

My brother-in-law and his S.O. are GQ gay guys, they don't understand transgenderism and in fact aren't remotely interested in understanding as it doesn't relate in any way to their own issues. We get along well, but trans issues are always viewed as tongue-in-cheek with them. I spent a couple of years as a volunteer helper at an AIDS hospice which was run by a gay and lesbian staff, I got along fine with them, but they were always rather cold and distant toward me on a personal level because they don't relate to transgender issues and in fact don't want to hear about it, which is fine with me because I don't discuss it with outsiders anyway. So this is the attitude trans people are up against from GLB folks.

[Ltl89]

My brother-in-law and his S.O. are GQ gay guys, they don't understand transgenderism and in fact aren't remotely interested in understanding as it doesn't relate in any way to their own issues. We get along well, but trans issues are always viewed as tongue-in-cheek with them. I spent a couple of years as a volunteer helper at an AIDS hospice which was run by a gay and lesbian staff, I got along fine with them, but they were always rather cold and distant toward me on a personal level because they don't relate to transgender issues and in fact don't want to hear about it, which is fine with me because I don't discuss it with outsiders anyway. So this is the attitude trans people are up against from GLB folks.

It's very true that there are gay people that are bigoted or ignorant on trans issues.  However, is that different from any other population.  You will find ignorance everywhere and in every group.  Is it representative of everyone?  I'd like to say no.  After all, there are plenty of cis people that are supportive and others who are transphobic.  I wouldn't expect the gay community to be different.  Just like the fact that homophobia exists in our community, there are also many gay allies here.  It's hard to paint any group or community based on the actions of the few or the vocal minority.  Just because some one is gay or trans doesn't make them understanding anymore than being straight or cis does.  People are people.  We all have our flaws and you will find ignorance present whenever a large community of people is formed.   That's why I don't like group mentalities or stereotypes about people that aren't in the club.  Often, we all have more in common than we think.  Despite some of the ignorant people in the lgbt community, I think there is something meaningful about it's existence.  I'd rather focus on that positive force and forget those who'd rather live in ignorance and contempt.  We all get it one way or the other and should support each other for this reason.  At the very least, I can say I have encountered plenty of gay allies in my time and am grateful for their support and understanding. 

[Lexi Belle]

LGBTs purpose is NOT built for sexual preferences.  They were brought together because they were social abnormalities, Transsexuals got lumped in because we are fighting for the same exact thing. Equality.  We want to be treated like any other human being is treated, so do gays, lesbians and bisexuals.  The fact that people keep sticking to the fact that it's all about "the single problems of each branch" is the primary reason for WHY the T gets isolated.  It's simply not the point of LGBT.  It's point is for social acceptance, not to share similar problems.  People miss that point WAY too often.

Oh, and another thing.  Transsexuals have done a lot for the fight on gay rights, anyone GLB trying to down play a transsexual is just making themself look exactly like people had looked at GLB in history (some still today)
It's a bunch of hypocrisy.

Anyhoo.
Endrant

[oliviapril]

once you get a little political power its hard to share.
your afraid if you add on to many issues it will all get diluted.
however this leads to more discrimination.
it's everybody right to be treated equally.

[Tessa James]

There are a large number of LGBT organizations currently mobilized to support the renewed effort to pass the ENDA, Employment Non Discrimination Act in the Senate today.  Perhaps many here pay little attention to USA politics but the media is currently filled with talking heads that are using the words "gender identity."  That's us folks and these are national LGBT groups raising that awareness for us. 
It appears ALL the senate democrats will support it while we hope 5-8 republican senators may tip the balance.  Since the House has a republican majority it is far less likely to help us.  And just why LGBTQ folks continue to support the very politicians who would deny us is another thread and a head scratcher for this girl.

As LTL nicely points out there are poorly informed and ignorant people within any big group of people.  Bigoted individuals do not represent all LGBTQ people just like we at Susan's do not represent all trans people.  Our task, IMO, is to stay engaged and never give up on our selves and our rights to be free from this culturally sanctioned discrimination.  If we all stay home with hurt feelings who is going to carry the torch for those to follow? 

Can we really forget that the seminal LGBT "event" in this Country, known as Stonewall, was led by transgender people who wouldn't put up with the hate and harassment any longer?

What is it about sexual orientation that makes some of us go nuts?  As proclaimed from the streets; "We're queer we're here get used to it!!!!"

[Chaos]

It has become clear in more recent events then anything that the T is slowly being pushed out of the que tho not by all but most.Let me give you some examples.

1) most gay's *for some reason* continue to disrespect and down grade a trans person,still not understanding what it means to be trans (not ALL but most) nearly every local Trans person has got involved with all gay events in their local area,seeing it as a means to help fight for over all rights,but you will rarely see a few gay people get involved with Trans related events in their local area because that is fighting for ONLY trans* rights and not something they feel they *need* to do.So to say,lack of willing to learn on top of lack of wanting to help.
2) While they continue to win their rights for marriage and other assorted things,the Trans community continues to rarely see ANY rights at all.(none of this is including the open bashers,they just make up of some of the gay community) On top of this,big changes are made the more the Trans* community is known or seen.For example,Putin *decided* to stop taking children from gay couples,after being so bent on doing so.A change of heart? *shrugs*

So the gay community continues to get rights in every area and even in ways they didnt think was possible *military,marriage benefits* and so on.they become more snotty and find no reason to fight for the same people who helped them achieve that.And because of this,the govt and other power heads,continue to give them those rights while hoping to push back against the Trans* community.It could be said like this:
*At least we know what being gay is and we can deal with that,so lets support that and refuse the Trans* and maybe gain allies while doing so*
In a nut shell.Of course good things have come our way as a community but i personally dont feel there IS a LGBT* anymore and over time,that will become ALOT more clear.

[Tessa James]

1) most gay's *for some reason* continue to disrespect and down grade a trans person,still not understanding what it means to be trans (not ALL but most)
2) While they continue to win their rights for marriage and other assorted things,the Trans community continues to rarely see ANY rights at all.

Chaos I respect that you may have strong feelings about this but please recognize that you and I cannot possibly have encountered or know "most gay's"  The examples that many people have related are anecdotal but do not give us a clear view of most gay people.  I am fortunate to have a lot of friends who consider themselves somewhere within the queer/gay community.  But, I still don't know most of the gay people even in our rural community because many LGBTQ folks are firmly in the closet or have gone stealth.  Those are very personal choices and I am not faulting anyone about it.

I must also admit that I still cannot understand many transgender people and what animates their world view.  It's hard to understand myself some days and that is one of my reasons for being here with you.  Exploring and sharing our lives gives us a great opportunity to know ourselves and others better.  Testing ourselves and our responses and asking questions can provide a forum for personal growth.  I do encourage people to stretch their minds a bit and look at the bigger picture and be the change they want or need .

Marriage is a transgender issue too.  My situation is similar to another Oregon couple who are taking their case public and to the courts.  They have been married for decades and one spouse is MtF and has been through the works to get her sex marker changed to female.  This, in the eyes of the law makes them a same sex couple and their loving marriage could be declared null and void.  I don't want anyones relationship determined by a popularity test or arbitrary State laws.  We have work to do and I want the largest circle of support possible for all of us in venues from the family to the Whitehouse.

I also assure you that we transgender people are gaining new rights and recognition.  Our Oregon has enacted rules for insurance that mandate HRT for companies that provide it for natal women.  Step by step is slow but still progress and a long way from what i remember growing up in the 1950s. 

[Chaos]

Chaos I respect that you may have strong feelings about this but please recognize that you and I cannot possibly have encountered or know "most gay's"  The examples that many people have related are anecdotal but do not give us a clear view of most gay people.  I am fortunate to have a lot of friends who consider themselves somewhere within the queer/gay community.  But, I still don't know most of the gay people even in our rural community because many LGBTQ folks are firmly in the closet or have gone stealth.  Those are very personal choices and I am not faulting anyone about it.

I must also admit that I still cannot understand many transgender people and what animates their world view.  It's hard to understand myself some days and that is one of my reasons for being here with you.  Exploring and sharing our lives gives us a great opportunity to know ourselves and others better.  Testing ourselves and our responses and asking questions can provide a forum for personal growth.  I do encourage people to stretch their minds a bit and look at the bigger picture and be the change they want or need .

Marriage is a transgender issue too.  My situation is similar to another Oregon couple who are taking their case public and to the courts.  They have been married for decades and one spouse is MtF and has been through the works to get her sex marker changed to female.  This, in the eyes of the law makes them a same sex couple and their loving marriage could be declared null and void.  I don't want anyones relationship determined by a popularity test or arbitrary State laws.  We have work to do and I want the largest circle of support possible for all of us in venues from the family to the Whitehouse.

I also assure you that we transgender people are gaining new rights and recognition.  Our Oregon has enacted rules for insurance that mandate HRT for companies that provide it for natal women.  Step by step is slow but still progress and a long way from what i remember growing up in the 1950s.

*most* is a form of % and i have encountered many in my life time,this also includes the many support groups that i have been a member of that were strictly for gay rights,as i was an ally/advocate.This includes before,during my transition and yes,i have kept a very close eye on the events that take place on both sides.Of course,i am in no way stating that the gay community *where Trans CAN benefit or not* should NOT have those rights and i also stated that the Trans* community IS gaining rights but at a MUCH slower pace and in alot of places,not at all.Though i appropriate your reply,please know i do not like feeling that what im stating is either being twisted to mean something else or to downplay any personal experience that i have/had.As a Trans* person myself,how could i NOT know about the laws taking place/failing/passing or anything within those lines? So im well aware of the constant fight that is taking place on behalf of the Trans* community and well aware of the rights the gay community IS gaining/winning.That being said,this is not only about information but personal experience.Which can not be questioned because it is mine alone.Just like i can not correct your personal experiences and your information on the communities.regardless if you believe the % or not or those experiences,they are true in one of two forms.1) personal experience or 2) information already out for the entire community to read.My own gay brother is very disrespectful to me as a Trans* person,not including the large support groups that i had to continue to leave because of many other mixed negative things.Im glad if others have more positive experiences and as i said,*i *personally* dont feel there IS a LGBT* anymore and over time,that *will become* ALOT more clear.* and it is up to each person to share their feelings,their experiences and to deal with it how they see fit--I personally would rather not deal with LG and only time will tell me if that is something i should change my view in or not but for me,i havent found that yet. thanks

[Tessa James]

Thank you Chaos,

You are right on about personal experiences and I respect and agree that is what helps to shape our perspectives.  I hope I am not coming off as too preachy and I apologize if that is how it feels.  I do feel passionately about so much of this but taking things too literally may not help us understand each other.  You are clear and I agree there is no one here that can challenge your experience or know your truth like you do.  It is a very real and understandable pain to have family or anyone disrespect us.  I am sorry if you have been hurt by any of the dialogue here in this online world or in real life.
Again, thank you for saying it the way you see it and, of course I remain hopeful that healing is part of this.

[LizMarie]

For the OP, I fnd it hysterically funny (in a sad pathetic sort of way) that an organization calling itself  "Stonewall" would exclude the T (transgender persons) given that Stonewall was initiated and occurred almost exclusively due to the transgender persons there deciding to not take it any more.

Such ignorance of GLBT history is sad.