Am I the only one who thinks the 'knowledge economy' is a scam?

[Aeyra]

For the last 5  - 6 years (ironic that Bush is in office during this whole time) it seems that most of the economic growth in this country is nothing but real estate and finance. If we are sending all of our manufacturing to China and India and the other nations in Asia and since the auto industry is basically dead, then how do we make up for that?? Is it viable that we start building Mcmansions and Condos and the assorted crap that goes with it? A good chunk of the jobs made since 2001 have been working at Outback and Walmart and Home Depot. Does this mean that said jobs require a college degree now? DO I need a college degree to stock shelves at the Walmart? Either stock shelving theory has gotten much more technical in 2007 or high school flat out sucks. Also, do you really need to have a BA in humanities to serve that nasty meat and food at the Outback? (I don't think that's a burger, BTW) I guess you get to have a political conversation while you toss that salad!

Even the idea of a 'knowledge economy' is ludicrous. How do you define a knowledge economy? Is it the generation of knowledge? Perhaps, but then again even your most fly by night operations would count as 'knowledge jobs' since you are generating knowledge of some type of procedure or service. Hell even pornography could be considered part of the knowledge economy since you're certainly getting 'knowledge' there. Mind you, it's a crude example but then again what is a knowledge economy? If it's not generation of knowledge, what is it?

Perhaps, since we outsourced most of our manufacturing and even a bit of our agriculture (the stores in SIoux Falls import most of their seafood from the PRC ), we all could work in fashion design, real estate, and financial gaming. I find it hard to take seriously a country with a workforce of 120 million that works in mostly fashion design. That would be a historical precedent if you ask me. Perhaps we could all eventually work for the government. That certainly won't work, since if you have one group of people making the decisions for everyone, countries, especially larger ones like the USA, would fall apart. Also, this seems awfully contradictory to the ranting of the so-called Republicans and Libertarians, unless of course limited goverment means cutting pet programs you don't like and installing your own. Maybe we could start inflating the stock market to gigantic highs by making the NYSE a bona fide casino. Stick all kinds of purty flashing lights and gogo dancers in that funky building they call home and screw it with economic growth!

My honest opinion, I think the knowledge economy is a scam TPTB are pushing on us simply because of the fact that most people's wages have been declining for almost a quarter century. Quite honestly, the reason why wages and such aren't keeping up and we're having all of these money problems is simply because of this country's dumbass politics. We never have paid our bills on time for most of American history, and I'm doubtful that we'll ever pay back just the federal debt let alone the rest of the money we owe. I suppose we could default on the dollar but that would screw up the economy big time, not that the economy already isn't a mess. I see it as everyone wanting to use DC as thier own piggy bank, everyone from the Wall Street shysters in NYC to the pork-barrel junkie politicians here in SD. Everyone wants to push their pet projects through DC (they paid a bunch of farmers in Alabama $280 million to NOT raise catfish. IT's true). Given that most parts of this country have mutually incompatible cultures and political goals, might we have part of the reason as to why we have the knowledge economy now?

[Melissa]

It's true that a lot of business is going overseas.  However, the quality of what you get is only marginally acceptable and IMO, you get better quality work done (albeit more expensive) in the US.  I personally have done quite well in the job market and in the past 12 years have multiplied my paycheck by probably 10 times at least (I used to work part time and min. wage).  I think what has happened doesn't exactly make things easier, but if you are resourceful, you'll do well.

[Cindi Jones]

Knowledge economy.... BS

It might have merit if we were able to keep the knowledge we develop within the country.  However....

- Who do you talk to on the phone when you are talking to just about any customer service group?
- Boeing is having it's wing assemblies (the most difficult part to design) in Japan.  Other important assemblies are made in Europe. Computer technology has completely been sold off to international concerns. IBM no longer builds the notebook computers that carry the logo.... it isn't even IBM any more.
- ALL aspects of American labor are being outsourced.  Think your IT job is safe?  Think again.  Companies are moving their data centers and programming tasks off shore.
- Even legal and accounting services are moving off shore.

So what "knowledge" is left here?  They can't even put ketchup right on my burger at Burger King.  I think there is nothing left.

Our task is to build the economies of Pacific Rim countries.  We can't afford to do it on our own, but that's what our government is sponsoring. 

It would be one thing if these big companies were US companies and paid their share of taxes HERE in the US. But that is no longer the case. They are all now big multi nationals with headquarters in countries that give them huge tax breaks.

All that is really left is this country's national resources.  Coal, timber, farming, and tourism.  How long can we finance the world's greatest military with that?

We will bankrupt ourselves and hand the super power status to China within just a few years.  This doesn't bother me too much.  But it is kind of sad isn't it?

Cindi

[Aeyra]

Well, what I do know is that this won't work for long. If you send all the jobs overseas and everyone back in the US is working at Walmart/McDonalds/Homeland Security, might we have a problem if wages in this country are stuck at $8/hour (I call BS on a good chunk of the population making more than $12/hour) and housing is at $230,000 on average? YOu need to go about 2.5 times your annual household income if you're buying a house. Even if you are a married couple (irregardless of your sexual orientation, BTW), if the average wage is $8 per hour and housing is $230K, either you won't have a lot of people buying houses anytime soon (currently the situation right now), wages will skyrocket to an average of around $22 - 23 per hour (not going to happen), or housing will take a hell of a reaming (likely to fall back to at least 1999-2000 pricings, maybe even back further a decade). This doesn't even count for gas prices and food and all the other crap you have to pay for. If average inflation is around 11% and wage inflation is only 2-3% (very generous for today), there will eventually be a breaking point. Unless, of course, we magically create wealth by shuffling credit card bills and bets on the weather.

[Melissa]

I call BS on a good chunk of the population making more than $12/hour

Umm, I don't know about "most of the population", but it's been a good 7-8 years since I made that little and that was after I took a pay cut to go back to school fulltime.

...and housing is at $230,000 on average?

I'm not sure what the "average" is, but when I bought my house in 2005 (I no longer have it), I bought it for about $170K with it being 4 years old and me having such terrible credit I could barely find anybody to loan to me and paying 0 down.  I honestly prefer renting because for me owning a house is a big headache (unless you are great with money, which is NOT me).

YOu need to go about 2.5 times your annual household income if you're buying a house.

Hmmm, maybe that was my problem with why I couldn't afford the house payments.

If average inflation is around 11% and wage inflation is only 2-3% (very generous for today), there will eventually be a breaking point.

This is one reason why employees are not as loyal to companies as they once were.  You are correct in your average wage raise figures and the only way to get your income to grow faster is to switch companies every few years while asking for a larger and larger salary.  How else do you think I earn so much more than I used to?  I'm merely staying where I am for now because I'm in a fairly good position for where I am in my transition.  Plus the company I work for is growing VERY fast, which means the longer I wait, the more impressive it will look on a resume.  I'll tell you that it's sure nice working for a company that isn't constantly "over-budget".

[Cindi Jones]

Mew, in the valley (bay area) where I worked, your loyalty ran long enough to get a better offer somewhere else.  There was no loyalty from employees. The reason for that in the area where I worked was that the company would lay you off for any reason any time it wanted.  You were after all only a "human resource". You were no longer a person.

I put my job on the line a couple of times to protect people working for me.  I won half the time.  I bet that if more managers resisted some of this slashing, there would be less of it.  The thing is, they are worried more about their own sorry a**** than for the people they worked with every day.  That's a real problem.

Cindi

[Wendy Kahr]

...All that is really left is this country's national resources.  Coal, timber, farming, and tourism. 

I think someone may have a plan here... (I referring to people with a lot of wealth and no allegence to any nation).

How long can we finance the world's greatest military with that?

Well, if the world is past big wars, all we (actually the wealthy elite that run things) really need is a military that can respond to crisis situations with countries like Iran, North Korea, etc..

We will bankrupt ourselves and hand the super power status to China within just a few years.

I think we are on the downward (decendent) part of the curve and India is on the upward (ascendent) part of the curve, speaking of a nation's wealth and power. I think China has problems (lots of people and potential for internal strife that is kept in check only by the Chinese military).

[Cindi Jones]

Sooner or later, we will see a labor movement here in the states.  Hopefully it won't need to be violent and I pray it comes soon.

FWIW, I used to be a very loyal and active Republican.  I even went to party meetings.

Cindi

[LostInTime]

I disagree.

I have knowledge on how to do something and I can do it extremely well. No matter where I go I am always told that I am one of the best employees they have had. My working for them comes at a price though and they deem that it is worth paying for or not. I pay a mechanic because he or she has more knowledge about a car than I do.

I have watched textile plants close up and move overseas. I have been watching computer warehouses and manufacturing take its place (all within the last three years). I have seen old farm land, once used for tobacco being sold and turned into housing or perhaps business property. Those with the knowledge work the sale, the transition, the building, and then the transfer. It is a collection of knowledge and skill that puts money in the pocket and food on the table.

I can go to seven different markets, all within a reasonable distance and buy milk that was produced and bottled an hour away. Meat that is two and half hours away. Fish from two hours away and caught that day and in one, is still alive in tanks until it is ordered. Fresh grown vegetable, fruits, and other items. I can travel 4 hours and buy furniture made within the state. It costs but the quality kicks butt, it will last near forever. The framing for my house came from lumber yards within my state.

Housing is booming in the state where I live as is the population. If you are willing to travel just a bit, homes at or under $150K are not a problem and they come with a decent amount of land. If you want to own property close to the big city then you have to pay for it.

I also see a lot assertions with no backup at all. I would like to see studies and stats from reliable sources on all of the stats listed here so far.

[Aeyra]

Since you stated that farmland in your area used to grow tobacco and that housing is running at about 150K on average, I assume that you're in the Southeast (correct me if I'm wrong). It is good that some economic growth is happening in the SE, but that area of the USA is heavily subsidized by the feds. Florida and Georgia may be an exception to the rule, but much of that subsidized growth is in the form of funny money to groups like Tyson Foods and various other companies down in DIxie.

As for China overtaking the USA, I'm under the belief that the USA will be the last superpower on Earth for a LONG time. China is in even worse condition than the USA; the Chinese government enjoys very little credibility among the Chinese, the environmental and ecological problems there are legion, and they are facing a population and an energy crisis to boot. If China goes down, say goodbye to Walmart and Home Depot since many of the plastic goods and crap there won't be available any longer. Also, since Walmart and Home Depot are the backbone for many of the other 'jobs' created in the last 5 years, kiss goodbye to the real estate/knowledge/finance economy. If that goes, kiss goodbye to Operation Iraqi Freedom (NOT) since we won't have the money to continue to back up that boondoggle outside of hyperinflating our currency. Even a drop of 10% of the average home price would screw over a lot of people. Quite honestly, I'm under the impression that housing will eventually fall by 40 - 50% in NOMINAL price. That 230K average for the USA could fall back to around 138K easily (the same price you paid in 2000). If you are in an area like Manhattan that has bona fide economic growth, you might see a mere 20 - 40% initial drop. If you are in an area like parts of the Central Valley in California or much of the sclerotic Red States, a drop of 60 - 90% in some of the bad areas isn't out of the question. 

[RebeccaFog]

Hi,

   It always amazes me how informed you all are.

   My opinion is that in the event of things getting ugly, the economy will reinvent itself.  The reinvention will probably come from people smart enough to utilize local resources. I have no information to base this on but my faith in the people to overcome obstacles.

   Remember, things get ugly a lot.  Just counting my scrawny lifetime we had the late 70's when it was looking pretty bad, then the late 80's/early 90's there was a depression that caused many a person some depression.
   Hilariously (or not), we also had pretty much the same issues as we do now, which is a testament to our do nothing leaders.  I do not wish to talk about them because my ears are getting warm.

   Anyway, people are the true power and resource of our world. I have faith in them no matter how many times they disappoint me.

   That's the best I can do.  I ain't quite a person whose mind can hold facts or statistics, but I can testify to the power of the people though it lacks the perfection which we all desire.

    I almost forgot.  I remember a housing freak out when oldBush was in office.  It passed.


Rebis

[Cindi Jones]

LIT,  I read of your experiences in school and it reminded me of myself.  I've never been able to test well since my mind is all over the place. I'm no genius.  I know that. However, I was continually bored in school.  I remember that my Geometry teacher asked me if I wanted to go ahead of the class when I was in tenth grade.  By the first of November I had completed all the problems in the text book and I did it in class. Then, I was really bored.

If you are in an area like parts of the Central Valley in California or much of the sclerotic Red States, a drop of 60 - 90% in some of the bad areas isn't out of the question.

I live in the Central Valley.  I bought my land in 1992 and built my home in 2001.  My home's value went up a bit after we built it but now I'm seeing what other property is going for around here, and I'm guessing that my place isn't worth what I paid for it.  There is no way you could build my house for what I could sell it for.

It isn't too much of a concern for me however.  On paper, the loss isn't that great and I plan to live here for some time.  But it is a terrible problem for people who have purchased homes in the last two or three years.  I think though, that it will stabilize.  It usually always does.

The quality and quantity of good paying jobs has greatly diminished over the past few years, at least for the people I know.  I worked with a top notch crew in my silly con valley days.  Some of them have taken jobs in retail and real estate after losing their jobs to India.  I haven't kept track of them over the past two years.... I'm hopeful that they have been able to get back into the careers for which they were trained.  Good people will rise to the top.

The bottom line in all of this however is the national debt we are incurring.  There will come a time when payment and interest on that debt will consume so much of our national budget that basic services will suffer severely.  As far as facts.... Check what the debt was in 2000.  Look at what it is now.  From 3.7 trillion dollars to over 8 trillion dollars in just 6 years.  It's hard to fathom.  The world economy could collapse if we ever deem it necessary to nationalize this debt an decide not to pay our debtors.

Cindi

[seldom]

The truth is America does not have the social mechanisms in place, ALA EU to really run a knowledge and service based economy.

Also somebody TRIED to set up a legal outsourcing company in India awhile back, and saw it fail in a minute flat. Others have attempted and similarly fail.  WHY?  Both Big Businesses and Law Firms have to follow legal ethics guidelines that basically force everything to be handled inside the firm, and often inside the country.  Lawyers made their profession outsource-proof through incredibly strict conflict on interest and confidentiality rules that prevent any significant outsourcing within a firm.  They have even tried to create a wall to prevent this, but no law firm will bite because the rules are just that strictly enforced, and lawyers do go after opponents with ethics claims whenever there is any impropriety, same goes for clients. 

Generally speaking when a Firm has a foreign office, it is to do deals within those countries the foreign office is located, not for the purpose of outsourcing.

There are other things that keep the legal field in the US, and prevent outsourcing.

I could go on, but Law and Medicine are completely part of the knowledge economy.  They are two of the oldest professions, and they are both stronger industries in the US.  Neither face the same threat to outsourcing because of their requirements of confidentiality and client/patient interaction required for most legal and medical work. 

If you think the knowledge economy is BS.  Well there is a problem.

I have an issue with industrial outsourcing as much as anybody, but those who think there is no knowledge economy and that there is not value in it really needs to encounter an urban economy.

Real wages are declining by the way because there is a lack of corporate regulations and the real honest to god reason is because labor regulations and the ability to organize has been stifled since Reagan.  So those moving into the service sector are under a new labor regime that does not allow workers to organize under unions as easily.  Basically this is a Wal-Mart economy.  Big Box, Big Corporation, Non-Union, and a few, very rich benefactors.  Its not the government thats at fault, its the corporations.  Its their influence over the Republican party and Reagan (and maybe Nixon) and since efforts to strip the economy of any real controls.  Its trade liberalization (also Corporations fault, as well as Republicans and DLC democrats, liberalization by the way, is not liberal in the good way).  You live in a right to work state, which is one of those policies that is ENTIRELY to blame for this state of affairs.  Combine trade liberalization (aka "free" trade that is anything but fair), with right to work, with the disintegration of the new deal regulatory economy...well you have our situation now.  This is what you get for voting Republican, you did yourself in America.  Want to know why wages stagnated a lack or organized labor and the concept of free trade and pulling back regulatory regimes and the social safety net.  You get cheap stuff from China as a result.  Hooray for the Wal-Mart economy.  Welcome to America becoming a third world state. 

Last I checked too, the states and cities with higher union representation, have higher wages. Why? Because there is a greater redistribution of income from revenues and more equity. 

This is also what you get for "libertarianism".  Take away regulatory measures and corporations run wild.  Take away trade barriers and they ship out jobs.  Take away union shops and wages fall. 

Who is to blame for this economy: The SOUTH AND MOUNTAIN WEST LARGELY.  Bush exacerbated the problems that Reagan begun.  Last I checked, not a single state I lived in voted him in.  The places I lived caught on to his scam, and the corporate fascism that republicans represent in general. 

Congratulations for screwing the rust belt and northeast out of its industrial jobs.  At least we developed the KNOWLEDGE economy and have union jobs now to rebuild the economies in some of our respective cities (DC, Boston, Chicago, and NYC), but there are plenty of cities that have not fared as well from the disintigration of the American industry.  Europe has adapted to this same phenomenon years ago and had a significant social safety net too adapt.  Americans on the other hand keep floundering because of a distrust of government regulation of industry, taxes, and lack of corporate control. 

Thanks for voting Republican.     

[RebeccaFog]

I didn't vote republican.  You'd have to be lower than a snake's belly in a wagon wheel rut to do that.


I almost forgot to say "It'll get better" 

[LostInTime]

My family lives up north in a rural area. When I moved away the area was dying thanks to NAFTA. In the last six years the area has become energized. The downtown has bounced back, the housing market is doing well, and property values are way up. This was an area that was designated by the state as being economically depressed. New malls have popped up and employment is available. It is a huge turnaround from the late 90s.

I still have yet to see any studies and hard statistics linked.

[RebeccaFog]

I don't believe in statistics.  I believe in people.

    I'm not being silly or sarcastic.  Please don't mistake my attitude as being off hand.  I really and truly believe that statistics cannot account for the human spirit.  I don't mean to come off like a nut either.

    I just think that if an area becomes overtly depressed that there will be an opportunity for people to make a move that maybe was beyond their capability when times were good.  However, it depends upon factors that go beyond just the right people having gumption.  It depends on available resources, motivation, focus, and such things as that.  So, of course, it's important that the local government be on the ball and help to provide this opportunity.

[Cindi Jones]

It looks like we all share many thoughts in common.

All l can say is that as individuals, we had better learn to change or we'll be left out on the street!

Cindi

[ChildOfTheLight]

It's corporate fascism (which is the only kind of fascism -- look up the definition) with lip service to libertarian ideals that is worst of all (and which Amy correctly denounces.)  What it amounts to is anything but libertarian -- those with friends in the right places don't have to follow the law and get to say that what they're doing is the action of the free market.  Enron, for instance, wasn't the result of a free market -- it was the result of fraud and playing games with the regulations.

As for the orignial topic, I'm not convinced it's a scam, but I've become skeptical.  You can't consume more than you produce without stealing or borrowing -- and theives get shot and debts come due.  What are we producing for trade with other nations?  Increasingly less.

[Wendy Kahr]

Interesting article here:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/JubaksJournal/HowWallStreetGotIntoThisMess.aspx?page=all

I cut and pasted a bit...

How Wall Street got into this mess

An aging society needed safe investments with a reasonably high yield to pay years of pensions. Wall Street invented a solution that sounded too good to be true -- and it turns out it was.

How did some of the smartest minds on Wall Street and at banks, insurance companies, pension funds and hedge funds around the world get into the current financial-market mess?

And how is it that you and I will wind up paying the bill, ultimately?

To answer those questions, let's start with a quick rundown of recent bad news in the continuing meltdown in the credit market for assets based on mortgages and buyout loans.

Thursday's massive 387-point sell-off in the Dow Jones Industrial Average followed a meltdown in Europe...

Two mortgage insurers, Mortgage Guaranty and Radian (RDN, news, msgs), have said that a $1 billion investment in a subprime mortgage company could be worthless...

After seeing $14 billion to $20 billion in assets evaporate as two of its leveraged hedge funds went bust, Bear Stearns announced that a third, unleveraged, hedge fund had run up big losses. It froze investor accounts.

Braddock Financial closed a $300-million hedge fund after subprime losses.

German bank KfW said it would bail out a German lender with subprime losses.

Australia's Macquarie Bank said investors in one of its mutual funds would lose up to 25% of their money thanks to losses in the subprime sector.

And shares of American Home Mortgage lost 97% of their value after the lender said it could no longer raise capital for new loans and filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

Some 46 financing deals representing over $60 billion have been pulled from the market since June 22...

How did all this happen? As any good con man will tell you, the success of a con depends on the mark wanting to believe. The victim, in essence, talks himself into getting fleeced.

In this case, the global investment community wanted to believe that Wall Street and other centers of financial engineering could manufacture investment-grade, long-term debt to meet the huge demand of insurance companies, pension funds and central governments for predictable, long-lived and safe interest-paying investments. Because the need for this paper was so great, these marks were willing to suspend belief. They knew in their heads that you can't manufacture investment-grade debt. But in their hearts they wanted to believe. They needed to believe. They had to believe.

Because, you see, it's the only way out for an aging world that's running a huge shortage of the real stuff...

Maybe the easiest place to start to understand this global con is with the U.S. corporate bond market. For the past 25 years, there's been a headlong rush to junk quality in a market that once provided investors with an amazing combination of safety and higher yields...

This decay in the credit quality of corporate bonds couldn't come at a much worse time for the managers of pension funds, insurance company portfolios and, indeed, any portfolio designed to cover the huge costs of retirement in a rapidly aging world. By the middle of this century, demographers estimate, about 15% of the world's population will be older than 65, the traditional retirement age in the United States. That's a huge increase from today -- just 7% of the world's population is older than 65.

Money has to last longer

The retirement bulge is even bigger than that shift in percentages indicates. First, the developed world, with the bulk of the world's formally organized pools of retirement assets, is aging faster than the globe as a whole. In Japan, the oldster of the developed world, for example, 20% of the population is already older than 65; that percentage is projected to be 30% by 2025. And second, once workers and their spouses hit retirement age and start collecting their pensions, they are living longer. Of the 20% of Japan's population older than 65, half are older than 75. Longer life spans mean pension funds and other retirement vehicles have to pay out longer and more for each retiree.

Faced with this rising tide of retirement obligations, managers of retirement money in one form or another found themselves between a rock and a hard place. They needed safe assets. Some of them are required by the rules of their portfolios to invest in only investment-grade assets. They needed long-lived assets that matched the dates in the future when obligations to issue retirement payments materialize. And they needed assets that deliver high returns while still meeting the requirements of safety and long maturity...

And that was the moment when Wall Street walked in the door with an amazing deal. Investment bankers should spin speculative-grade credits -- whether corporate debt and loans from a buyout deal or mortgages from financially challenged home buyers -- into investment-grade credits. By bundling together groups of credits, or pools of loans, corporate debt or mortgages, the investment banks said, you'd lower the risk that an investor would take a hit if any one loan or mortgage went bad...

And then, by cutting up those pools and putting the riskiest deals together in one segment, called a tranche, and the less-risky deals in other tranches, you could insure the less-risky tranches against loss. The riskiest tranches might get wiped out, which is why investors who bought them got a higher yield, but they created a kind of buffer for investors in the less-risky tranches, the investment banks said. Investors in those less-risky tranches wouldn't take a hit until the more risky tranches were wiped out, the banks promised. And it follows, the banks argued, that the less-risky tranches met the standards for investment-grade credit ratings. (For more detail on how this works, see my June 29 column, "Deepening debt crisis hits close to home.")

Voila! From pools of risky speculative-grade credits, Wall Street could manufacture the investment-grade credits that the retirement industry desperately needed.

The managers of retirement assets could have said no to Wall Street. Some managers did.

But others signed up to be conned. They heard what they wanted to hear. They closed their eyes and ears to the voices in their own heads questioning if you really could turn straw into gold by slicing up a pool of speculative-grade credits. And they decided to overlook what they knew of the history of other Wall Street miracles of financial engineering...

Wall Street has collected the fees for putting together these deals. Partners at investment banks and hedge funds have pocketed their performance bonuses. And who is now stuck paying the bill?

Despite the spectacular damage meted out to a few on Wall Street in the most high-profile crashes of hedge funds or investment pools, it's the retirement pools of the world and the folks who pay into them and expect to collect from them who ultimately will pay. Every fund that crashes, every asset that goes from $1 to 50 cents takes a piece of the global retirement pie with it. At a time when the world needs every cent it can save to pay for its aging.

It's corporate fascism (which is the only kind of fascism -- look up the definition) with lip service to libertarian ideals that is worst of all (and which Amy correctly denounces.)  What it amounts to is anything but libertarian -- those with friends in the right places don't have to follow the law and get to say that what they're doing is the action of the free market.  Enron, for instance, wasn't the result of a free market -- it was the result of fraud and playing games with the regulations.

As for the orignial topic, I'm not convinced it's a scam, but I've become skeptical.  You can't consume more than you produce without stealing or borrowing -- and theives get shot and debts come due.  What are we producing for trade with other nations?  Increasingly less.

[Cindi Jones]

That's a very interesting article Wendy!  Thanks for posting it here.

Cindi