Why is passing so important to us?

[Sophia Sage]

Unfortunately makeup even on cis women skews our perceptions quite a bit.

All these women wearing makeup must be wearing it for a reason!

If you look at random no makeup celebrity photos, you see so many stronger jaw lines, broader noses, etc. than you ever realized they had. Same deal with body shapers when going below the neck, they are absurdly common now and in the past. Most women do not have true hourglass figures.

Ultimately though, that's my real goal... walk outside the house with no makeup, and without having to put on a wig, and be read as female. I'm not a makeup person.

For me it took facial surgery to get gendered correctly without makeup.  And shortly thereafter I went sans makeup for about a decade. 

Eliciting the correct gendering all the time really does come down to embodiment, including voice.  It's over the long term that certain kinds of social skills, enculturation, and narrative matter.

[Jessica]

I asked this in a separate thread and maybe should have been just part of this one.

There is a lot of emphasis in our need to pass as women both physically and emotionally.  Emotions, I think most can do it.  Physical acceptance is the hardest for us.  When we picture ourselves as women we think we should project beauty as the number one attribute.
In the last week I have looked many women in the eye and studied their face. 50% of them I could say are they transgender?  The average success I think we should hope on is looking like 50% of cis-women with a lower percentage on each side of that success.

[rmaddy]

You're conflating things.  You really can make peace with the man or woman in the mirror without giving a thought to passing.  It's liberating, and durable--you don't lose value based on what anyone else thinks or says, and you never have to deal with fear of discovery.

[Jessica]

You're conflating things.  You really can make peace with the man or woman in the mirror without giving a thought to passing.  It's liberating, and durable--you don't lose value based on what anyone else thinks or says, and you never have to deal with fear of discovery.

It truly is just a matter of owning it and living life.  Without the mental baggage.

[Sophia Sage]

You're conflating things.  You really can make peace with the man or woman in the mirror without giving a thought to passing.  It's liberating, and durable--you don't lose value based on what anyone else thinks or says, and you never have to deal with fear of discovery.

That would have been nice if it actually worked, but for me the social aspect to gender is what's most important to me.  I needed to be gendered in one way only, by the whole world; this had nothing to do with having "value."  So I took the steps necessary to achieve that, and then to maintain that.  But that was all, like, nearly two decades ago.  It's not something that takes any kind of work in the here and now.

A lot of people, people who are now lost to me, said way back in the day that there was no reason to transition at all, that I didn't need to change my body, didn't need to insist on correct pronouns or change my name or anything like that.  Couldn't I just wear a dress, preferably in private?  Well, they were wrong.  Because the source of my dysphoria was being misgendered, by myself and others.  And dysphoria isn't something that can just be whisked away by "making peace" or anything like that.  If it could, there's be a whole lot fewer people on these boards.

Here's what's liberating: Being gendered correctly, all the time, for nearly two decades.  Such freedom!  To be exactly who I know myself to be!  And it's nothing I fear losing -- why should I, when it's completely apparent to myself and everyone around exactly who I am?

[rmaddy]

So what happens if you're misgendered tomorrow?

[Jessica]

You're conflating things.  You really can make peace with the man or woman in the mirror without giving a thought to passing.  It's liberating, and durable--you don't lose value based on what anyone else thinks or says, and you never have to deal with fear of discovery.

I agree that you can make peace in the mirror.  What my comment was inferring was that we all have a chance to look like what I feel is 50% of cis-women, there will be the ultimate success of being gorgeous (yes gorgeous women do exist) for some of us, and unfortunately there will be some of us that won't be as fortunate.  But the rest of us will look like that 50%.

I feel your ire and I hope it's clearer what I meant.

(((Jessica is hugging rmaddy)))

[Sophia Sage]

So what happens if you're misgendered tomorrow?

I'll speak, and then I'll receive an apology, just like any other cis woman who gets misgendered. 

But I won't be misgendered tomorrow.  Those days are long gone.

[rmaddy]

I'll speak, and then I'll receive an apology, just like any other cis woman who gets misgendered. 

But I won't be misgendered tomorrow.  Those days are long gone.

Fair enough.  Do you think you are a cis woman?

[FreyaG]

Here are some unfortunately disjointed comments:

On some level, passing is about pain avoidance.  It hurts me to be called sir, to be referred to by male pronouns etc.etc.  So of course I am going to avoid that pain and seek pleasure.

I transitioned socially as soon as I disclosed to myself.  That transitioning happened within the context of my progressive Midwestern religious congregation.  I'm tall and balding and have the ability to grow facial hair, but yet I in effect told people that I was a woman and wanted to be treated as such without providing any visual evidence to back up my request, other than dressing in a gender appropriate fashion.  On that level, I feel that passing is something I owe to the people I have come out to.  I feel that I am obligated to minimize their suspension of disbelief.  So now I usually show up wearing a beret to hide my lack of hair, and I will wear breast forms and at least mascara and lipstick and I only wear female clothing.

I'm not really out at work.  I show up in my chinos and button-down oxford shirts without makeup and with my balding spots clearly showing.  But when I look in the mirror, I see a woman.  I do consistently wear floral ties, predominately in pink and lavender.  I see that as a small act of resistance.  But still, it's all very drab and ugly and nasty.  I look at myself in the mirror and just feel awful that I have to hide what I see in the mirror from my customers and staff.

At home I have two cats that like to jump in my lap and crawl all over me, so I don't like to wear my gender appropriate clothing because they'll just ruin it with their claws and cover my clothes with their fur.  I'm not going to stop my cats from using me just because I need to pass. So I'm sitting here wearing some girly sleep shorts and a woman's shirred teeshirt.  And Humphrey Wumphrey is busy kneading me and I wouldn't have it any way, except...

Last night was different.  I wore makeup, put on a wig and some breast forms and took selfies.  My profile pic is a result of last night.  Do I pass?  Would I be clocked?  I assume I would be clocked, although I hope I'm wrong.  In any case, look at my eyes.  Am I not happy?  Are my eyes not full of joy?  Do I not look indomitable?  Am I not a woman? 

I posted the pic you see as my Facebook profile pic last night.  I look at it all the time.  I feel happy.  I enjoy the loving comments I've received, often from Facebook friends who are truly encountering me for the first time.  I am beautiful and I enjoy my friends affirmation of that simple core fact of who I am.

[Sophia Sage]

Fair enough.  Do you think you are a cis woman?

I'm a woman.  And I consider myself cisgendered for the time being.

See, I don't think "cis" and "trans" are real or objective categories; rather, they are social constructions.  As I see it, "being trans" means suffering from some kind of dysphoria, and having some kind of social narrative of transition or cross-gendered identification.  I don't have dysphoria, I don't get misgendered, and I don't maintain a trans social narrative.  This is what cisgendered people (don't) experience.

I think the social categories of "trans" and "cis" are not fixed or permanent states of being.  We slip in and out of them, depending on social milieu.  In my own experience, the social milieu of this forum, and places like it, are safe places to share our experiences without being misgendered; in this milieu, gender is declarative, and no one can argue what someone else's personal truth of identity is or should be.  So I can "be trans" here without compromising my gendering. 

It's much the same with my immediate family, but in that space I'm the one responsible for maintaining my boundaries when it comes to gender.  Thankfully, my family has responded impeccably to my requests.  They know if they don't they'll lose me.  My family is great.

The place I'm happiest, though, is where I'm cis, which is pretty much everywhere else. 

To some extent I'm employing a common metaphor -- we describe our mental states as locations.  For example, we can find ourselves "in" a state of depression, as if it were a body of water.   Anyways, I think of gender as residing in two cities (I call them the Citadels), one male and one female.  In between these two places is a massive wasteland, and in the middle of the wasteland there is now a thriving Oasis for everyone who doesn't live in the Citadels. 

To move from one Citadel to another is a daunting task which requires passage through the Oasis. But here it gets complicated. Some people realize they prefer the Oasis to either Citadel.  Others find they can't pass the Citadel gates; they have no choice but to live in the Oasis.  And some forget that they were going to the other Citadel, because the Oasis is now a really fabulous place.

I live in the Citadel, and occasionally pop out to visit the Oasis. 

[Julia1996]

There's another factor to consider about being a known trans person. Safety. People hate us, want to hurt us and kill us. Look at the number of transwomen killed each year. Being known as trans increases the odds you're going to be assaulted or killed. I saw a show a long time ago about a transwoman in Florida. People spray painted slurs on her house, threw rocks through her window, vandalized her car and killed her cat. These are things that can happen when everyone knows your trans. Someone's going to say that was an isolated incident but it's not. Stuff like that happens to trans people everywhere. The biggest concern my dad had about my transition was that someone would hurt or kill me. Once it was obvious I could pass easily he told me not to ever tell anyone I was trans. It wasn't that he was ashamed of having a trans daughter, he's Proven a hundred times over that he's not, he was afraid someone would hurt or kill me if they found out I was trans. All the media attention and TV shows about trans people would have you believe people are becoming more accepting of trans people. But really these shows are like the old circus freakshows they had 100 years ago. They simply describe it as a medical problem now. Check out Body Bizarre on discovery health. It's labeled as a medical show but it's just a freakshow that exploits those poor people who were born with defects.

Despite the fact society seems more accepting of us don't doubt for one second that there are plenty of people out there who hate us and want to hurt or kill us. Telling people you are trans if you don't have to is just dangerous.

[ChrissyRyan]

Julia, it is awful that some people treat anyone that way.  Wrong!  I can see that this real safety reason is why passing or stealth is extremely important to many.  I hope these incidents are few and infrequent, and better yet, never happenning.

A professional football player who ended his professional career is known in one way as a "former" professional football player.  I suppose that should be true then for a cis-man who did everything physically and emotionally he thought was necessary for him to transition as a trans woman, that is, it seems that she would be accepted as a woman, and if people knew about her transition, also known as a "former" trans woman?  Or is one always a trans woman?

[Janes Groove]

I don't know how you do it Sophia.  I have found that the energy required to maintain a closed narrative 100% of the time is more that I am capable of.  When I tell stories, I am always slipping up.  e.g.  "That was when I used to work as a busboy."  oops.  "I went to ______ High School (what was then an all boys High School)." oops.

My past just has this persistent habit of creeping into all my stories.

And there's my history of living as a man and being socialized as a boy.  I just have no female stories to tell.

[Karen_A]

Unfortunately makeup even on cis women skews our perceptions quite a bit. If you look at random no makeup celebrity photos, you see so many stronger jaw lines, broader noses, etc. than you ever realized they had. Same deal with body shapers when going below the neck, they are absurdly common now and in the past. Most women do not have true hourglass figures.

I very much believe that one does not truly pass physically (at least terms of being able to live stealth) unless one can do it without makeup and regardless (at least reasonably) of how one is dressed... and that is not something that is in reach of everyone who wants that in the extremely trans aware age where the "muggles" know about FFS etc from people like Caitlyn Jenner

So these days FFS is not enough to tip the scale for the who have an unfortunate body type/proportions.

I had SRS over 19 years ago and FFS (Dr. O) over 18 years ago... While FFS lessened how often I got read visually, it did not eliminate it.

For those that are unlucky, overall size/shape/proportions, big hands and feet and an number of more subtle things, when they are significant, can't be completely overcome by FFS, makeup etc... Though the right choice of makeup and clothes can help- sometimes a good bit...

But one cannot live one's whole life perfectly put together in all situations, hence my definition of passing. Some of us can get there, and some simply can't.

Over the years I have run into very few TSes that did not pass well and who really did not care about that... though some were not vocal about those feelings unless you were with them in an unguarded moment.

- Karen

[Karen_A]

  "I went to ______ High School (what was then an all boys High School)." oops.

While I went to an all male high school, it went coed the year after I graduated... Being that I am now in my early 60s i don't worry about THAT outing me. I doubt many would know what year they went coed, and even if they did,  they would need to know my exact age and then do the math, something that is highly unlikely!

- karen

[Sophia Sage]

All the media attention and TV shows about trans people would have you believe people are becoming more accepting of trans people. But really these shows are like the old circus freakshows they had 100 years ago. They simply describe it as a medical problem now. Check out Body Bizarre on discovery health. It's labeled as a medical show but it's just a freakshow that exploits those poor people who were born with defects.

Despite the fact society seems more accepting of us don't doubt for one second that there are plenty of people out there who hate us and want to hurt or kill us. Telling people you are trans if you don't have to is just dangerous.

This is all true.

I don't like it as an argument for practicing non-disclosure.  I don't want to live out of fear; I'd rather live from my bliss.  But even in non-dangerous environments (for example, a very progressive church) the quality of gendering received differs if disclosure has happened.

[Michelle_P]

As an activist, I find that "not passing" distracts from and is often used to invalidate my messages. 

Not passing is also a bit of a safety issue. I was assaulted twice in 2017 as a trans person, although other terms were used by the assailant.

I do NOT live stealth, however. I will disclose my being trans where it is useful in education or communicating a point. I did this as part of my message for unity and love in the Women's March January 20th.



I'm obviously trying to pass, with the hair, makeup, and wardrobe. I am a woman, after all, and in Western  culture with its patriarchal gender binary model, I have to fit in as well as possible to avoid being "other", marginalized and ignored as a taboo person. I do not want my message ignored.

That sort of defeats my purpose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Roll]

that is not something that is in reach of everyone who wants that in the extremely trans aware age where the "muggles" know about FFS etc from people like Caitlyn Jenner

So these days FFS is not enough to tip the scale for the who have an unfortunate body type/proportions.

There is a flipside to the current awareness though... even 100% cis women are sometimes labeled as being trans. "Oh, she had a slightly large head, must be trans." Look at Michelle Obama, a lot of people were dead serious about saying she was trans. Kesha is another example people became convinced was trans. That muddies the water quite a bit I think, and means that some "accusations" (that sounds negative and I don't mean it to be, I just don't know another word to use here that is value neutral with the same gist) of being trans are pretty much meaningless and would have happened to many cis women too. I've read stories about even basic surgery scars (hysterectomies even!) arousing suspicion. Basically, if it's one of those jackasses running around accusing every woman who doesn't match a random actress's proportions or thinking women can't be over 5'5'', it's probably not even worth worrying about to begin with no matter how important passing is to someone. They aren't based on any real critical attention to detail, and for every trans woman they correctly label they probably said the same thing to 20 cis women.

I do NOT live stealth, however. I will disclose my being trans where it is useful in education or communicating a point. I did this as part of my message for unity and love in the Women's March January 20th.

This just reminded me of one other thought I had... One thing I want to be absolutely sure of is that my extended family, particularly kids, are very aware of who I am and that I am trans, even if I were to luck up and 100% pass. (Though as I said before, I wouldn't live stealth regardless. But I wouldn't advertise anymore than anyone would advertise anything about themselves that just sort of is.) It is very important for me to let any family suffering in silence to know they aren't alone. Though I confess, I feel like my actual responsibility ends at family. (Which is not to say I wouldn't reach out to others, simply that it would be something I view as a good thing to do, but not something that is incumbent upon me to do.)

[Julie Marie]

I know all kinds of lesbians who don't wear makeup, and they get gendered female just fine. 

I doubt there's a cis lesbian as close to the gender boarder as where I live.  There's something Mother Nature does from birth that I will never even get close to.  I'm constantly surprised I pass.  One slip in the voice and I'm ready to do a Barry White song. Add broad shoulders, narrow hips and hands created by decades from handling tools.  No idea why I don't get clocked.  Maybe it's the weapons of mass distraction.