FFS: to get or not to get

[Veronica Secret]

in order  to give an opinion,  clinical photos are  required, hair pulled back, full face, f 45 degree, and profile, left and right...

...based on the avatar, it looks like you could benefit from forehead work, scalp reduction,  brow lift...

..."passsing" is highly subjective especially when self  evaluated, it seems that those who beat  themselves up actually 'pass" better  than those who think  they pass  flawlessly.  And locale matters. Frisco is brutal. It seems everyopne scrutinizes TS s  here with a microscope and they know what  to look for!

Posted on: September 14, 2007, 12:18:57 PM....oh and even most GGs could benefit from a lip lift...

[Berliegh]

I think FFS is very important in the transitional process probably of the the most important, unless you are really lucky with your facial physical structure....

The face is the first thing people see and is a gender indicator. Men do have a different facial and skull shape, sometimes through the infusion of testoterone which in many cases needs eradicating. Nero, it's not a vain thing, it's more to do with exceptance and intergration for many transsexuals.

I am hopefully seeing a FFS surgeon soon and I hope to discuss the male bits about my face. For some weird reason I do pass and I'm surprised by it...... but my voice is really good and I think it does a lot of the work. I worry my brow looks wrong, too much like I'm frowning (see pic). Females are more wide eyed and their eye sockets are different...

On the whole I think I've been a bit lucky and avoided too much male facial development despite starting on hormones in my late 30's..

[Deja]

It's really up to the person. One should get FFS because they want it for themselves. If it makes you feel better, then do it. If you have questions then you have to examine your questions.

I have seen some very nice FFS and I have seen some not so nice FFS. And I've seen some FFS that I didn't even notice any difference.

And as for the "passing" thing - the most important things are self acceptance and "passing" not as a female but as a human being who functions well in society.

No, I don't think you need FFS but it is up to you.

[Kate]

Personally, I believe there's a lot more to FFS than that. Nor do I for a second believe it's the same as natal women wanting to look prettier.

I gotta admit, the idea of being cute and pretty... is *extremely* appealing to me. Not "sexy," not some silly male fantasy of what a girl should look like, but just a girl-next-door kinda thing.

We talked before about how I feel more trans-personed than trans-sexual, in that I've always been haunted by this very specific image of who I am, who I think I WOULD and should have been. Hence my avatar over there. The person I need to be *happens to be* female, but being female isn't quite the point. Being HER, being "me" is.

So even if HRT alone makes me reasonably passable (though ugly because of the residual masculinity), I'd still be tempted to use FFS to be pretty, to be closer to that self-image of mine.

~Kate~

[Keira]

At least your honest about it Kate,

many do FFS on the guise of passability

when its obvious that beauty was even more important,
but admit this would somehow discredit their need for surgery.

Poeple go way beyond removing the effect of T on their squeleton (which the level I of FFS I did) and go to some other
point when they are unrecognizable by anyone from what
they looked before.

Considering that body dysphoria is part of gender dysphoria,
I'm not surprised at all that TS are proponents of
surgery.

I had 10K of surgery although I was quite passable before;
it just didn't correspond to the image I had in my head of
myself (as you say), which made me feel ugly (as gothike said).

If you want to do FFS for this reason I don't see why not (and I did so, so I've got no leg to stand on to object in any way).

[Berliegh]

And as for the "passing" thing - the most important things are self acceptance and "passing" not as a female but as a human being who functions well in society.

No, I don't think you need FFS but it is up to you.

I definitely need it and I can admit it..
passing as a female is for me the main objective of a 'male to female' transition.........otherwise it's not a 'male to female' transition. self ecceptance is illrelevent if your not excepted in the outside world as a female...

I am taken as female about 80% of the time but I'd like to get to at least 95%...

[gothique11]

At least your honest about it Kate,

many do FFS on the guise of passability

when its obvious that beauty was even more important,
but admit this would somehow discredit their need for surgery.

Poeple go way beyond removing the effect of T on their squeleton (which the level I of FFS I did) and go to some other
point when they are unrecognizable by anyone from what
they looked before.

Considering that body dysphoria is part of gender dysphoria,
I'm not surprised at all that TS are proponents of
surgery.

I had 10K of surgery although I was quite passable before;
it just didn't correspond to the image I had in my head of
myself (as you say), which made me feel ugly (as gothike said).

If you want to do FFS for this reason I don't see why not (and I did so, so I've got no leg to stand on to object in any way).

I'm with this end, but I also see where people want FFS in order to pass. But, that's not an issue with every TS person, and sometimes it's about looking and feeling better (hey, gg's do it all the time!)

It's sort of like SRS -- you don't need SRS to pass as a woman, but a lot of TS get SRS to make their bodies more congruent with who they are. It's not like you walk around naked all the time to prove you have the parts in order to get validation, so who's going to know it's there other than you? So TS people do not go through SRS because they don't feel it is necessary for them (and there is nothing wrong with that).

Do I "need" FFS... I seem to get by fine without it. It's an option I consider and keep open as a possibility because it could help me a lot when it comes to feeling more congruent with who I am. It's probaby not going to happen soon, since SRS is coming first, but it's an option worth keeping open.

[danielle_l]

i think there are two reasons i wouldn't get FFS -

1, because i don't really have the money
2, because im scared of the operation.

its only that has stopped me so far, and i don't think it will stop me for ever.

of course, there are other considerations, like, what happens if the result is not what you wanted? or, what if it makes you look unnatural, like one of the hollywood
knife-mares?

but you can't live your life in fear of what might happen right??

i can't see anyway round it if, like the vast majority of ts's you look basically, like a man, if you want to look like a woman you need surgery.

The only way you can really feel better about it for me, is by looking at other women, and the imperfections they have and live with. At some point, you have to find a balance between being able to live a life trans or otherwise, and yearning for surgery, that might not correct the things you think it will.

its so important for the ts community to get out of this photo-obsessed, imagery that im sure, all of us at some point have been involved in. We have to look at ourselves and realise that we were born men, and we don't have the luck that natal women have had. Its tough, but at least if we recognise the problem maybe between us all we can find a better way through it?

[ValerieMTL]

The only complaints that I ever had about my head were my hairline and my nose. I always hated my nose. This goes back to when I was a teen and people would always make fun of it. Once I started transition, I knew that my body was great (yeesh... I mean 5'8", 125lbs. Amazing how a crap boy body can become a hot girl body), but that I would need to do something about these perceived flaws. I went to see Dr Brassard in August for a consult (I met Keira this summer and was amazed at the wprk that he did on her). He told me that obviously my nose needed work, but that he wouldn't touch the rest of my face. I had a rhinoplasty done less than 2 weeks ago, and so far I'm insanely happy about it. This is probably the greatest accomplishment of my transition thus far.

I'd love to get a picture up here (pre-op of my face), but I'm too stupid to figure out how. Some coaching would b greatly appreciated.

Valerie x

[Kate]

of course, there are other considerations, like, what happens if the result is not what you wanted? or, what if it makes you look unnatural, like one of the hollywood knife-mares?

Unlikely if you stick with the best-known surgeons with great reputations. Possible, yes, but unlikely.

but you can't live your life in fear of what might happen right??

They are valid fears though. I worry about permanently losing sensation in various parts of my face, especially the scalp. And I don't want anyone messing with my nose plumbing.

i can't see anyway round it if, like the vast majority of ts's you look basically, like a man, if you want to look like a woman you need surgery.

Not necessarily. The thing is, WE tend to keep seeing the male looking back at us - even when others just see a woman. Quite a few people have FFS just to change that self-image.

The only way you can really feel better about it for me, is by looking at other women, and the imperfections they have and live with. At some point, you have to find a balance between being able to live a life trans or otherwise, and yearning for surgery, that might not correct the things you think it will.

Nicely said, and I agree. I AM tempted by it, I must admit... but I also have this Little Voice In My Head saying, "don't do it, it's not for you."

On the other hand, I don't have $33,000 lying around, so I need some sort of rationalization to sooth the yearning, lol...

~Kate~

[danielle_l]

Not necessarily. The thing is, WE tend to keep seeing the male looking back at us - even when others just see a woman.

kate, i so, so hope your right with this one.

[Kate]

Not necessarily. The thing is, WE tend to keep seeing the male looking back at us - even when others just see a woman.

kate, i so, so hope your right with this one.

It's been my experience thus far, which is why I'm *constantly* whining about how I'll never pass, I look ugly, blah blah. To me, I just look like a feminine guy with long hair most of the time.

But people tell me to just SHUT UP ALREADY, that I'm literally insane, and to not listen to myself - "listen to normal people," as someone recently told me, lol.

And "normal people" (aka "The Public") either tell me I look great (if they know I'm TS), or just see a woman. I have no idea how, it's like there's some magical charm or Jedi Mind Trick "you don't see a male, you only see a woman..." going on.

But seriously, we're often a bad judge of whether or not we "need" facial surgery to pass.

~Kate~

[gothique11]

Not necessarily. The thing is, WE tend to keep seeing the male looking back at us - even when others just see a woman.

kate, i so, so hope your right with this one.

It's been my experience thus far, which is why I'm *constantly* whining about how I'll never pass, I look ugly, blah blah. To me, I just look like a feminine guy with long hair most of the time.

But people tell me to just SHUT UP ALREADY, that I'm literally insane, and to not listen to myself - "listen to normal people," as someone recently told me, lol.

And "normal people" (aka "The Public") either tell me I look great (if they know I'm TS), or just see a woman. I have no idea how, it's like there's some magical charm or Jedi Mind Trick "you don't see a male, you only see a woman..." going on.

But seriously, we're often a bad judge of whether or not we "need" facial surgery to pass.

~Kate~

That's so true -- we see our selves differently than the world sees us. We have have a zillion people validate you, but we still look in the mirror from time to time and see our old selves. I don't know if that even completely goes away after FFS.

One thing that I did notice, however, is that I ran into an old picture of myself and I didn't recognize the person at first. I look completely different. But since I'm with myself all the time the changes are slower and I don't know if we notice change as much as others do.

[Ember Lewis]

I know you from your videos and think you look great, I think ffs is more an option for you based on physical appearance. Everyone tells me I don't need ffs and I partially agree, however there are some minor changes I want done. I think unless you are having issues passing, ffs is more for your confidence than for being accepted based on looks. If you can afford it and you want it then do it, but going for srs is a good idea first if that is what you value more. And image issues is not just assigned to the transgendered, I don't know a gg out there who has not felt inadequate in some way or another.

[Suzy]

I think FFS is more important to those who feel it necessary to have a complete and total break with their past.  Looking in the mirror and not seeing the remnants of the old face is very comforting to some.  And it has little to do with passing.  I know that I seem to pass fairly well, and I've been told I have rather feminine features.  But I am going to have one corrective surgery soon. 

Kristi

[seldom]

I think FFS is more important to those who feel it necessary to have a complete and total break with their past.  Looking in the mirror and not seeing the remnants of the old face is very comforting to some.  And it has little to do with passing.  I know that I seem to pass fairly well, and I've been told I have rather feminine features.  But I am going to have one corrective surgery soon. 

Kristi

There has to be a level of discomfort though to begin with ones face to do the "works" and break with ones past.

I am getting a level off FFS (scalp advance and forehead contour), but I am avoiding "the works".  I have no issue with my jawline, and I have no issue passing (with the face itself).  I don't want FFS because I get harassed enough as it is as a female, and I am not even that attractive.  I would like to avoid the harassment.  I am pretty okay with the way I look, outside of my hair and forehead.  I am even okay with my big nose. HRT did pretty well with the fat tissue, and well the frame of my face is not too bad.  I don't want to be beautiful, just female.  If I get read as a nerdy girl...well all the better, thats who I am.

All that I am going to do is a low level of FFS so I don't have to wear a wig.  My face itself, is well...good enough, and I am not at war with my face. 

I also have no desire to make a total break with my past. 

By the way Kristi you look great. 

Also you don't need to do $30,000+ of FFS to look better.

[Berliegh]

I saw a ffs surgeon yesterday. He went through the various proceedures he thought I needed. I agreed with the brow and forehead but I didn't agree with him wanting to flattening down my cheekbones which I thought was a good feature.

I'm now worried about it..... 

[Lori]

Personally Goth, I think you are very pretty. FFS would make you a knockout. Me, I'm having FFS done way before SRS. I need to be pretty. I dont want to have anything to do with any masculinity left over when I wake up and look in the mirror. I want a new identity, to become the person I always felt I was inside. FFS not only gets rid of that male character but I feel it will make me look like a regular girl.

The reason I call myself a pickle is because I feel passing from the neck up is way more important than what cannot be seen below. I do care about that but I need to be able to pass first. FFS opens too many doors that would be shut if I had just done SRS and tried to shove documents down ppls throats demanding they look and admit I'm a woman because some document says so. If I don't look like a woman then I seriously cannot sell myself as one with any confidence and most people are shallow and vain and judge people by their looks. Women have their beauty and the more you have, the better life will be. Many TS are different and they don't care what people think and keep their drivers licenses on quick draw to show those that snicker or make comments that they are female because the state says they are. Then again I have been diagnosed body dysmorphia on top of everything else. I truly hate not looking like a female. I want to look like a GG, and a pretty one that. I don't care what it costs.

I don't think the state or any governement is going to back me up on the street so I better LOOK like female and not a transsexual when push comes to shove.

There is a simple rule with FFS Goth. Those that look like men before FFS usually look TS afterwards. Those that look TS before FFS will look like women, and those that look like women...will be pretty women afterwards with good surgeon.

You would be very beautiful. If you still get up and look in the mirror and see your old self, perhaps a change is in order before SRS. Its a personal matter and depends on how you feel about yourself. There are downsides to being beautiful but I'd rather deal with those then the downsides of looking like a feminized ex male.

I challenge everybody here to fine one GG that wouldnt want SOMETHING done to their face. I don't think there is such things as a 100% perfectly satisfied woman lol.

One more thing Goth. I dont know how long you have been on HRT but the muscles change last and your face had I dont know how many muscles so perhaps you should wait if you have not been on it for at least 2 years. But then again, most of FFS deals with the underlying bone structure.




Posted on: October 18, 2007, 08:13:24 AM

Most women who've endured the poison of testosterone need FFS. From what I've seen, it's pretty rare to have gone through a male puberty and not need it. FFS can make the difference between passing and not passing. If a girl passes well before FFS, she will pass flawlessly afterwards.
It's a good investment if being seen as nothing less than a woman matters.

Some women have been blessed by their fairy godmother estrogen, and truly don't need it. But a lot of women believe they don't need it, when they do.
Basing the decision whether or not to have FFS on assumed passability, is faulty. Most people are too polite to say anything, and also most people are going about their everday business and honestly don't care whether they encounter what they assume to be a crossdresser or not. What do some women expect - that people are going to raise a ruckus everytime you go out if you don't pass?
Not true. Most people could care less. Or are too polite to say anything at all. Yes, there are jerks out there who will say something and/or harm you, but these are not the majority.

And as Gina put it, even the those who don't expressly NEED FFS, could benefit from it.

I just love you  I could not have said that any better.

[melissa90299]

Personally Goth, I think you are very pretty. FFS would make you a knockout.

Yes, I agree, very cute without FFS but totally awesome with some tweeks.

There is a simple rule with FFS Goth. Those that look like men before FFS usually look TS afterwards. Those that look TS before FFS will look like women, and those that look like women...will be pretty women afterwards with good surgeon.

I understand the point you are making but I have seen a lot of Doug Ousterhout's work (I used to live within walking distance of his office) and although he can't make everyone pretty, he does a great job in making almost everyone look feminine.

Then there is Butterfly's surgeon not yet revealed who can apparently make unattractive men beautiful.

[Suzy]

I saw a ffs surgeon yesterday. He went through the various proceedures he thought I needed. I agreed with the brow and forehead but I didn't agree with him wanting to flattening down my cheekbones which I thought was a good feature.
I'm now worried about it..... 

Oh, Berliegh, I agree with you.  Don't you dare touch those cheek bones.  I'm so jealous of them.  They look very feminine.


I'm excited.  Less than two weeks away from getting my eyes taken care of!

Kristi