FFS: to get or not to get

[gothique11]

I've been thinking about FFS, but I'm not sure if I need it or not. I know of a couple of friends that would greatly benefit from FFS, and I have no doubt that there life would greatly improve from it; however, I'm not sure if the cost, pain, and time is worth it for me or not -- or perhaps it is all just in my head. It's confusing.

I'm not sure how much FFS will benefit me or if there will be a remarkable difference that would be worth it or not. And also, I wonder what's going to happen years from now after the FFS -- will I need touch ups? Would I end up looking like Micheal Jackson? Or will things be fine?

To be honest, I'm not sure what to get if I did. I don't think I need my adams apple done, since I don't have a visible one. I keep having people get jealous over my nose (even my gg gf does). Maybe my brow? It doesn't stick out much, although. This is confusing, there's no one thing that completely stands out; many of my trans friends, however, have one or two things that stand out and I totally agree that fixing it would help a lot.

And I don't know why I keep thinking of FFS. I seem to be in this strange mood recently where my gender dysphoria is going nuts. I've been living full time for a year and everything seems to be going great. Getting sir'd is something that hasn't happened in months and months... I can't even remember how long it has been. So, I don't know what the problem is... it's not the external world, but something internal.

I should be getting my GRS (SRS) soon... as soon as six months, maybe. I think it would be a good thing. I don't know if it would help. Maybe, in a weird way, because that thingy down there is still there I still feel "male-ish" -- even though no one can see it, I can. Am I extending my incomplete feeling through the rest of me, seeing what others do not. Or are people "just being nice" and telling me that I look good when I don't to spare my feelings.

I think the combo of being full-time for over a year and living in the world as the woman I am, but feeling like I'm hiding something (ie, the thingy down there and my past), combined with the fact that surgery is less than a year away... Is it playing with my head?

I don't know. And I'm not against FFS -- but I'm confused if it would actually help me and if I need it, or if I'm just seeing things that aren't there. Sorta like the anorexic who claims she's fat when she's obviously skin and bone.

Are these feelings normal?




Posted on: September 05, 2007, 08:59:12 PMhum, maybe my chin. Is it too long? **trying to to obsess but can't help it now**

[Melissa]

If you are passing just fine, then there's probably no need to get FFS.  Although I have a few features I'm not particularly happy about on my face, I seem to effortlessly pass and that's my main justification for opting to go without FFS.  Even in my musical, my costume requires completely hiding my hair, so I am passing on just my face alone, which was scary at first (especially considering I was wearing almost no makeup during the first dress rehearsals), but it also has given me some confidence that I needed.  So, my opinion of FFS is it will only benefit you if you are not passing perfectly.

[gothique11]

Well, I guess I pass alright, like I haven't been sir'd either in person or no the phone in a very long time, at least over six months. I've gone out with make up and my hair tied back and stuff lots. So, I don't know if I "need" it. I don't know. I'm being weird again and beating myself up and I don't know why. I'm usually a very confident girl.

[Melissa]

Well, I guess I pass alright, like I haven't been sir'd either in person or no the phone in a very long time, at least over six months. I've gone out with make up and my hair tied back and stuff lots. So, I don't know if I "need" it. I don't know. I'm being weird again and beating myself up and I don't know why. I'm usually a very confident girl.

Well, try putting your passability to the test and do something in which you would definitely get feedback from if you don't pass, although you wouldn't be in any real danger (like using the women's locker room at the gym or something).  That can really help to build up your confidence if you still pass.  I know those are the type of things that have built up my own confidence.

[Nero]

Most women who've endured the poison of testosterone need FFS. From what I've seen, it's pretty rare to have gone through a male puberty and not need it. FFS can make the difference between passing and not passing. If a girl passes well before FFS, she will pass flawlessly afterwards.
It's a good investment if being seen as nothing less than a woman matters.

Some women have been blessed by their fairy godmother estrogen, and truly don't need it. But a lot of women believe they don't need it, when they do.
Basing the decision whether or not to have FFS on assumed passability, is faulty. Most people are too polite to say anything, and also most people are going about their everday business and honestly don't care whether they encounter what they assume to be a crossdresser or not. What do some women expect - that people are going to raise a ruckus everytime you go out if you don't pass?
Not true. Most people could care less. Or are too polite to say anything at all. Yes, there are jerks out there who will say something and/or harm you, but these are not the majority.

And as Gina put it, even the those who don't expressly NEED FFS, could benefit from it.

And not that it means anything, Gothique, but my mother looked over my shoulder at your avatar, and proclaimed 'Girl'. And she's pretty honest. so you may be among those who had a fairy godmother.

[Melissa]

Basing the decision whether or not to have FFS on assumed passability, is faulty. Most people are too polite to say anything, and also most people are going about their everday business and honestly don't care whether they encounter what they assume to be a crossdresser or not. What do some women expect - that people are going to raise a ruckus everytime you go out if you don't pass?
Not true. Most people could care less. Or are too polite to say anything at all. Yes, there are jerks out there who will say something and/or harm you, but these are not the majority.

If people could care less and leave you alone, then why would that person *require* FFS?

[gothique11]

Well, I guess I pass alright, like I haven't been sir'd either in person or no the phone in a very long time, at least over six months. I've gone out with make up and my hair tied back and stuff lots. So, I don't know if I "need" it. I don't know. I'm being weird again and beating myself up and I don't know why. I'm usually a very confident girl.

Well, try putting your passability to the test and do something in which you would definitely get feedback from if you don't pass, although you wouldn't be in any real danger (like using the women's locker room at the gym or something).  That can really help to build up your confidence if you still pass.  I know those are the type of things that have built up my own confidence.

I've done that. I've tried not to pass, it's pretty much impossible. I think it is more of an internal thing, rather than an external thing that is going on with me.

My GID doctor didn't know I was trans when I first ran into him. I was with a friend who was going to see him and I didn't have my appointment yet. He thought I was my friend's GG girlfriend -- and this is the specialist who sees everyone in Alberta, who has been around for ages. I guess that was good, because he was so impressed that he booked me in 7 months early and expedited my letter for SRS. With other trans people I've also been mistaken for a GG/supporter.

I've been helping my trans friend who'll be coming out full time. A lot of people mistake me for her girlfriend helping her out. I've brought to a wig place where the girl works with lots of transgender people. When my friend was putting stuff on the girl talked to me and told me how much of an expert she was on how to tell if someone is a GG or not, and she kept referencing to my features as examples of "GG female" and my friend as a trans person. That was a very odd and almost uncomfortable situation, and I wasn't sure if I should tell that girl that I was also trans and saw her years go (she didn't remember me).

I think I'm going to wait until SRS before thinking about FFS... I'm thinking that the reason I keep having problems is the thingy down there that keeps reminding me that I'm not whole.

I'm normally very confident and very strong. I'm very active with my social life and I've been in girls washrooms and all that. I've made out with men who didn't know I was trans at all (not recommenced, I was being a silly girl and I could of got myself killed if it was the wrong person).

So, externally I seem to get a lot of validation. I don't know why I'm having trouble believing it. I'll say that I look horrible in pictures, but then most cameras don't take great pictures because of the head-on flash.

But you'd think that I'd some how feel awesome and validated, but I don't. So it has to be something with the internal side and maybe having the wrong part makes me feel wrong and that maybe I some how don't deserve to be seen as a GG. Maybe I feel like I'm some how "tricking" everyone.  Maybe it's a result of living a past life where I was hurt a lot and now that I'm not getting hurt I don't know how to handle it. I never used to be attractive, but now I can't keep people off me. I've never had so many friends before, but now I have so many that I actually have a booked up social calender. I grew up being hit every day being told I don't deserve everything.

And so, maybe, with all that nasty past gone and a new life that's much brighter, I don't know how to handle it. Kind of like someone who was abused by there spouse for years and years, and all of a sudden that stops. You don't know how to live any other way than you did in the abuse, and the effects of the abuse last years after. You can be confident, beautiful, and social, but deep inside the scars still hurt and you feel those old feelings from the hurt... you're stupid, your ugly, you're nothing. And no matter how you fight and how well you look in the world, those scars never go away and the hurt is forever burned into your mind.

And then again, I help and hang out with a lot of trans people who have a lot of passiblity issues. I see how much pain they go through not passing, and I've been the shoulder to cry on and the strength they needed. Maybe, that is what is bringing this up... I don't have those problems (and I wouldn't want them), but maybe in a way I don't understand why I'm so "lucky" and they are not. I some how don't feel that I don't deserve this luck more than someone else. What did I do?

--natalie

[Nero]

Basing the decision whether or not to have FFS on assumed passability, is faulty. Most people are too polite to say anything, and also most people are going about their everday business and honestly don't care whether they encounter what they assume to be a crossdresser or not. What do some women expect - that people are going to raise a ruckus everytime you go out if you don't pass?
Not true. Most people could care less. Or are too polite to say anything at all. Yes, there are jerks out there who will say something and/or harm you, but these are not the majority.

If people could care less and leave you alone, then why would that person *require* FFS?

I guess if they want to look like a woman? I see a lot of women in my town who don't pass, but are treated as women because they are obviously presenting as women. I just see a difference between that and passing. I mean these women are for the most part afforded the same courtsey as natal women. I guess the point is - does a TS care about actually being seen as a GG, or is getting ma'amed by people who know she is TS enough?

[gothique11]

PS I'm sorry for the rant. I probably sound pretty messed up and I realize that these issues aren't very common with trans people -- you pass and the world is your oyster. I just don't know why I feel like this. It's not that I doubt I'm a woman, or that I'm going the right direction. I just don't know why I feel like this and very few people can relate, if anyone at all. Well, I've ran into a few GGs who I talked to and they related with there own body images stuff, even really confident and successful women that few knew they had issues. So many trans people think I'm completely nuts when I speak, because they see me passing and wonder what is my issue. They aspire to "pass," to go around like a GG and never be questioned. But, maybe, once the worlds stops questioning you and who you are, the only one left to question you is yourself. And yourself is a much harsher inquisitor than the world.

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 05:14:15 PM

Basing the decision whether or not to have FFS on assumed passability, is faulty. Most people are too polite to say anything, and also most people are going about their everday business and honestly don't care whether they encounter what they assume to be a crossdresser or not. What do some women expect - that people are going to raise a ruckus everytime you go out if you don't pass?
Not true. Most people could care less. Or are too polite to say anything at all. Yes, there are jerks out there who will say something and/or harm you, but these are not the majority.

If people could care less and leave you alone, then why would that person *require* FFS?

I guess if they want to look like a woman? I see a lot of women in my town who don't pass, but are treated as women because they are obviously presenting as women. I just see a difference between that and passing. I mean these women are for the most part afforded the same courtsey as natal women. I guess the point is - does a TS care about actually being seen as a GG, or is getting ma'amed by people who know she is TS enough?

I would have to agree with Nero -- presenting as a woman has a lot more weight than looks. For me it's natural, but also presenting as a woman is much harder than looking like a woman. When you present as a woman, you're expected to act, know, and behave like a woman in your age range. I've been doing this for a year, and I'm expected to be like I was doing this my entire life. If all one had to do was worry about "looking" like a woman, being a GG would be easy and superficial. But it's not. A woman is much, much more than looks.



Posted on: September 06, 2007, 05:18:37 PMAlso Regina, I agree with what you said about that it's not all about passing. And Nero's comments, too. I think that FFS might not be just about passing, but about feeling better about yourself.

I see this because, honestly, when I get my SRS I'm not going around showing off my neo-vagina to everyone down the street to validate myself as a woman. If someone see me now, they aren't going to see a difference with my vaginal installation.

My SRS is about me feeling more comfortable with myself, not about validating myself to the world. I have no doubt I'm a woman, albeit some self-body-image issues that have started to come up recently and I don't know how to handle it (I'm considering joining a GG group that deals with it). But, yeah, the SRS is about how I feel towards myself. So, I can see how FFS can be about how you feel rather than passing (although it can be good for passing in terms of looks, too).

[Kat]

I am faced (hehe) with the same dilemma.  I am told my face is perfectly fine, but it doesn't seem like it to me.  I think it is partially just my association of my facial features with my old life, and it bothers me all of the time. 

If I could get FFS, I don't even know what I would have done to be honest.  And financially, I am not sure if I could afford FFS around the same time as SRS (I want to have SRS done ASAP).  I think it would also be kind of odd to show up at school after a summer with a kind of new face.

[Melissa]

PS I'm sorry for the rant. I probably sound pretty messed up and I realize that these issues aren't very common with trans people -- you pass and the world is your oyster. I just don't know why I feel like this. It's not that I doubt I'm a woman, or that I'm going the right direction. I just don't know why I feel like this and very few people can relate, if anyone at all. Well, I've ran into a few GGs who I talked to and they related with there own body images stuff, even really confident and successful women that few knew they had issues. So many trans people think I'm completely nuts when I speak, because they see me passing and wonder what is my issue. They aspire to "pass," to go around like a GG and never be questioned. But, maybe, once the worlds stops questioning you and who you are, the only one left to question you is yourself. And yourself is a much harsher inquisitor than the world.

Oh trust me, I can VERY MUCH relate.  In fact, I have that feeling that few can relate to me as well.  From what you listed, it sounds like you've done a lot of the same things as I have (i.e. Kissing guys in stealth, passing as a GG amongst other TS, etc).  I kept on pushing the envelope and my latest expedition was auditioning for and being in a musical as a female (which included LOTS of singing and passing being nearly naked in the dressing room), which to this point, I've pulled off successfully.  I even was able to make gender related jokes with friends and have them not think about my gender.  Prior to that was wearing a bikini in public.  In fact, there appears to be no limit as to how far I can go.  Since I found that I love acting so much, I'm going to keep doing that for now.

I think you just need some time and perhaps to start trying to live parts of your life in stealth where people only know you as a GG.  I bet that would help.

[buttercup]

I think this is a great discussion that you have brought up gothique11, and I can understand your dilemma, especially concerning your past that has affected your outlook on life. 

You really do look 100% like a young woman, so my feeling then is having any FFS would be to alter the way you look(not just about feminization), as in any GG getting cosmetic surgery does, for example Michelle Pfieffer, beautiful woman but changed her nose shape a couple of times to have it the way she wants it.  The list goes on and on, especially in Hollywood, and many looked perfectly fine to me before they got stuff done!  It's not just about trying to look younger, they want to alter the look of their face.  So if that's what you want to achieve, then go for it!

buttercup 

[Teri Anne]

Everything's subjective.  I would (and did) get GRS before FFS.  The chief thing FFS (w/ Osterhaut) gave me was a smaller chin and a small curvy nose.  I look at some of my old photos now and see that I had a larger chin.  And yet, I seemed to pass perfectly fine.  So, it's all in my mind, up to me.

One side-effect of FFS chin reduction is that there's extra skin now on your face.  You're supposed to go back, after about a year, and have the skin taken up.  I haven't yet and my operation was in 2002.

I'm retired and see plenty of things I want to spend money on other than my body.  My ex rightly points out that all operations have serious risks.  A GG friend of mine recently had breast "reduction" that went bad -- The tissue under the breast died and she had to have everything removed in subsequent operations.  She's probably going to have reconstruction surgery (breast augmentation).  I tell her that she looks fine but, of course, GG's too have their own set of angsts.

My ex wanted, as a teenage girl, to have a "nose job."  The doc looked at her nose and, amazing for someone who makes money altering people, pronounced that she was perfect.  Today, my ex is very happy that she didn't alter her nose.  My only points with this is are (1) GG's, too, worry about appearance (and we're buying into that) and (2) time can change your perception.

I still get a sharp pain now and then -- the exact place the anaesthesia was placed for my FFS.  It's rare enough to not be a bother.  But it happens.

I look at the money I've spent transitioning and am jealous that GG's have been able to keep more of their savings.  So, there's the economic part.  It's your choice if certain moneys are expendable and necessary.  If I had to choose going into debt with it, I probably wouldn't have.  Avoiding debt is strangely even more important to me than feeling "normal."

Weird, I know.

Teri Anne

[buttercup]

I think presenting as a woman has been easy for me. Really, a piece of cake compared to everything else (although I've put a LOT of work on my voice).  But looking like a woman is much harder. And there's no question that looking like a woman... not sort of, but really looking like a woman has a powerful affect when you see yourself in a storewindow or in a mirror or photos. It's a confirmation that makes you feel even more grounded in yourself. It connects the inside and outside and just reminds me how right it was to go on this often painful journey. Contrary to what I've heard people say, I don't think FFS is about looking pretty or even not liking your features the way some women don't. It's about removing an entire layer of pre-transition history.

ciao,
Gina M.

I agree with you Gina, it is about removing pre-transition history.  But probably in doing so, especially ones who passed extremely well before, it would beautify them, don't you think?  Having permanent cheek implants, jaw refined etc. would have that effect.  Again with Hollywood(sorry only references I can use), there are some actresses that have masculine features, for eg: heavy brows, large chin or jaw, and they are GG women(well I think so), but if you go on sites like imdb, quite a few people question these actresses gender.  So it seems like everybody needs a little help from the surgeon.      

BTW you look very feminine Gina.  Are you of Italian descent?  I am half-Italian so just thought I'd ask as you sign off with ciao.

buttercup 

[Nero]

Contrary to what I've heard people say, I don't think FFS is about looking pretty or even not liking your features the way some women don't. It's about removing an entire layer of pre-transition history.

ciao,
Gina M.

That's interesting. Like chipping away at the ravages of testosterone to reveal your real face as it should've been underneath.

[buttercup]

That's interesting. Like chipping away at the ravages of testosterone to reveal your real face as it should've been underneath.

That's a really good way of putting it Nero.    Do you think I should wear a T-shirt with 'under construction' on it?


buttercup

[Suzie]

One side-effect of FFS chin reduction is that there's extra skin now on your face.  You're supposed to go back, after about a year, and have the skin taken up.  I haven't yet and my operation was in 2002.

Not necessarily true, I think it depends on your age and the elasticity of your skin.  At least that's what I was told from the horse's mouth.  The younger you are, the less chance of there being jowls after the surgery.  For someone in their 20s-30s, I think it would be less of a concern.  For someone older, coincidentally the ones that can afford FFS to begin with, you might be looking at a possible face lift later on.

Your chin looks nice btw, Teri Anne, I don't notice the excess skin.  They did a good job.

[gothique11]

Thanks for the info. I'm not so much on a "fat day" as I was previously.

I think I'm going to wait until after my GRS to decide if I want FFS or not. Like I said, it's not so much about passing or an external validation, just my own internal thing. GRS might help with things over all, as well has being on HRT longer.

I've been talking to a few natal women over this subject who perfectly understand, they look very attractive but find something about there body that they feel uncomfortable with and would like to change. I've met women who've had nose jobs and have felt better because of it. I don't know if FFS is for me quite yet, but it's an option that I can always consider.

One thing I think I realized is that it's pretty normal to have times when you feel a bit body conscious. Every woman I've talked to has had times when they didn't feel that great, even though they were very confident, attractive and successful women. They understand that it's not always an external thing, but a self-internal thing.

It's like when I went to my voice therapy assessment. They just assessed where I am now, and said that my voice is good and "passable." I told them that voice therapy wasn't about passing for me but me improving myself and feeling more confident with my voice. My voice is the same as it was when I was male, so of course I'm going to still associate the sound of it with my male voice. So, if I can change it up a bit, why not?

Same with my facial features, I still have similar features now that I had as a male, so of course I'm still going to have some association with my old self there. Others would not see it, unless they've known my old self for a long time. So, it's not so much of an external thing with me, but more of an internal associating thing.

It's actually a pretty normal thing from what I'm understanding GGs go through. It's not necessarily about not being confident enough or having a bad self-esteem -- you can be very confident with a great self-esteem and still feel not-so-in-sync sometimes... a "fat day" in other words.


--natalie

[Nero]

Thanks for the info. I'm not so much on a "fat day" as I was previously.

I think I'm going to wait until after my GRS to decide if I want FFS or not. Like I said, it's not so much about passing or an external validation, just my own internal thing. GRS might help with things over all, as well has being on HRT longer.

I've been talking to a few natal women over this subject who perfectly understand, they look very attractive but find something about there body that they feel uncomfortable with and would like to change. I've met women who've had nose jobs and have felt better because of it. I don't know if FFS is for me quite yet, but it's an option that I can always consider.

One thing I think I realized is that it's pretty normal to have times when you feel a bit body conscious. Every woman I've talked to has had times when they didn't feel that great, even though they were very confident, attractive and successful women. They understand that it's not always an external thing, but a self-internal thing.

It's like when I went to my voice therapy assessment. They just assessed where I am now, and said that my voice is good and "passable." I told them that voice therapy wasn't about passing for me but me improving myself and feeling more confident with my voice. My voice is the same as it was when I was male, so of course I'm going to still associate the sound of it with my male voice. So, if I can change it up a bit, why not?

Same with my facial features, I still have similar features now that I had as a male, so of course I'm still going to have some association with my old self there. Others would not see it, unless they've known my old self for a long time. So, it's not so much of an external thing with me, but more of an internal associating thing.

It's actually a pretty normal thing from what I'm understanding GGs go through. It's not necessarily about not being confident enough or having a bad self-esteem -- you can be very confident with a great self-esteem and still feel not-so-in-sync sometimes... a "fat day" in other words.


--natalie

True. You know it could be that you guys are never satisfied with your appearance because you're women! LOL
Women are never satisfied. If they look great, they think they could use bigger tits or a smaller nose.
I'll admit that when I was in denial, I was jealous of the dainty, delicate framed girls the guys always wanted. Also of the girls who could fill out their jeans with full, rounded hips. I thought there was nothing more beautiful or feminine than wide, rounded hips encased in tight jeans. It was the normal mixture of envy and lust, LOL.

[Nero]

True. You know it could be that you guys are never satisfied with your appearance because you're women! LOL
Women are never satisfied. If they look great, they think they could use bigger tits or a smaller nose.
I'll admit that when I was in denial, I was jealous of the dainty, delicate framed girls the guys always wanted. Also of the girls who could fill out their jeans with full, rounded hips. I thought there was nothing more beautiful or feminine than wide, rounded hips encased in tight jeans. It was the normal mixture of envy and lust, LOL.

Personally, I believe there's a lot more to FFS than that. Nor do I for a second believe it's the same as natal women wanting to look prettier. I think it's a very different need and a very different urge even if it seems as if there's overlap. Look, it's not as if anyone HAS to do it. But I don't appreciate it when people say it's done for vanity. I've never known someone who did FFS for that reason. Ever.

Gina M.

Oh I was just commenting on Gothique's statements about natal women. I know that FFS isn't about vanity, or wanting to be a knockout.
I know that's it's to remove the damage of testosterone poisoning. It's about chipping away at the ravages of testosterone to reveal the face the woman should've and would've had. I understand that. Puberty messed with my body too, causing me to need surgery.
It's not about looks or vanity, it's something a non-trans person will never comprehend.

I was just responding to the comments about the vanity of natal women. I apologize that it came off as my dismissing FFS. I know the pain, horror, and degradation of needing surgery because the wrong puberty defiled your body.