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Did you know that males have an undeveloped uterus?

Started by 2cherry, November 05, 2016, 07:36:22 PM

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2cherry

If not, read on.  :D

The more I read about anatomy of the human body, the more I discover that the male and female bodies are quite similar. They are in fact homologous, until hormones rush in to develop certain traits. We know that all the lining of the male parts are essentially the same in females, the only difference is growth and location.

What I did not know, is that every male has an undeveloped uterus.

It seems, that a small part of the prostate in males is actually the undeveloped uterus:

The prostatic utricle is the homologue of the uterus and vagina

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostatic_utricle

So again, what is sex, other than a very slight difference in hormonal expression.


1977: Born.
2009: HRT
2012: RLE
2014: SRS
2016: FFS
2017: rejoicing

focus on the positive, focus on solutions.
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Angélique LaCava

That would make sense to why the prostate Acts just like a gspot lol.
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Amy Chislett

HrbHRT 21Jun2016
mtf hetero
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DawnOday

It is this similarity that gives credence to what I have read about DES.  http://desaction.org where my body was formed on testosterone but my brain developed on massive doses of synthetic estrogen. There are approx. 1.5 million DES Sons and an equal number of DES daughters. Sons got sexual confusion and heart disease. Daughters got Cancer. It was all about the timing of the administration of the drug. If it was first administered in week 8 to 18 and your mother had a history of miscarriages, there is a possibility you may have been exposed. Symptoms include mis-formed genitals, late descending testicles, small penis. Congestive Heart Failure, diabetes, heart valve deformity. The time period DES was available was between 1937 until it was found to be ineffective in 1972. There is still a usage in some foreign country's. Unfortunately to continue the right wing dialogue that this is a choice there has been no real studies on the subject since 2004, and that was a very limited study. All human bodies start out as female when the gonads become active and start producing testosterone and the body develops male traits. Until these massive doses of DES often 3000 to 5000 times the estrogen in birth control pills, overtake the T, and the brain develops on estrogen. Thus the confusion. Unfortunately you are left with a penis and an early knowledge that something is wrong that can haunt you all your life.
Dawn Oday

It just feels right   :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss:

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First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



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Mohini

What explains today's MTF transsexual children if not for DES?  Plastics in water bottles, water containers, pesticides with estrogenic properties?
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DawnOday

DES Grandchildren
Mice are recognized as good predictors of the human experience. When mice are given DES at the time of development, the resulting health problems in their offspring mirror those seen in human DES Daughters and DES Sons. When their offspring, the DES Grandchildren mice, exhibited health problems, researchers raised a warning flag.
Scientists are taking what they learned from animal studies to investigate whether a drug given to their grandmothers has affected human DES Grandchildren. As study results come in, there is growing evidence that the DES Grandchild generation has been adversely impacted. How that could happen is explained in an excellent article about transgenerational epigenetics published in Mother Jones magazine. The last paragraph addresses the DES experience. As described, toxic exposures don't actually mutate DNA, but rather they alter how specific genes turn themselves off and on to do the work they are supposed to do in the body. If not activated properly, because of exposure to DES in a previous generation, then health problems may develop.

Due to the lack of funding by the Republican party there has been only limited research being done. I suspect that the findings may interfere with the dogma that being transgender is a choice. Now if you take the 1.5 million DES sons and1.5 million Des daughters and consider their millions of grandchildren who's DNA may be affected. Earlier generations it was about the drug itself. Todays surge may be due to DNA. Until someone is courageous enough to authorize study we are stuck in limbo. All I know is that of all my health related problems, every one is a symptom of DES use.

Finally today there are many things similar to the effects of DES.Steroid Hormone Implants Used for Growth in Food-Producing Animals. Since the 1950s, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved a number of steroid hormone drugs for use in beef cattle and sheep, including natural estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, and their synthetic versions.

I hope this satisfactorily answers your question.
Dawn Oday

It just feels right   :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss:

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First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



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Dena

Quote from: Mohini on November 06, 2016, 04:37:56 PM
What explains today's MTF transsexual children if not for DES?  Plastics in water bottles, water containers, pesticides with estrogenic properties?
The same thing that happened to me. While I am old enough for DES, I suspect my mother didn't take it as I came along about a month after they were married. Many years ago my T was tested and they said it was low but within the normal male range. I suspect I just didn't put out enough T while I was developing to finish the job. My body is mostly male with some feminine features but my brain took the biggest it by developing fully feminine.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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DawnOday

Quote from: Dena on November 06, 2016, 05:22:03 PM
The same thing that happened to me. While I am old enough for DES, I suspect my mother didn't take it as I came along about a month after they were married. Many years ago my T was tested and they said it was low but within the normal male range. I suspect I just didn't put out enough T while I was developing to finish the job. My body is mostly male with some feminine features but my brain took the biggest it by developing fully feminine.

I don't know for sure as all my mothers medical records are gone, and Dr. Lewis died about 40 years ago. What I do know is that it has been a compelling emotion to feel something is askew, and not know the reason, or what to do about it. When I first came to Susans I just knew I was a cross dresser all my life. Now a lifetime dream is taking shape and my personality is taking shape in a female mindset. Just like in the womb.
I have said it before and I will do it again, Dena I think of you as a pathfinder setting the stage for those to come. Your transition at an early age at a time of very limited opportunities is inspiring. The fact you had the courage to pursue your truth at the same time I was wishing and praying because I didn't know any better.
Dawn Oday

It just feels right   :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss:

If you have a a business or service that supports our community please submit for our Links Page.

First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



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Mohini

DawnOday,

Thanks for your response.  The implications are troublesome, because it sounds like the problem emerged in the DES generation (born up to 70s), started to become move evident in the next generation, and now, children today are exhibiting the original problem of these drugs and treatments used medically and in the food supply in a MUSHROOMING fashion.  It's only getting worse because apparently, through epigenetics, how the DNA codes are acted upon by genes and other things is affected by whether the coils around specific DNA strands are tightened, loosened, or something other than what it should be.  This is huge, because it can mean that a significant portion of the population will becomes sterile, non-reproducing because the children will transition so early that they don't give their bodies a chance to produce sperm/eggs to bear children.

It was indicated in another article on epigenentics that this could be a big shift in therapy, how things are changed at the DNA coil level (right, there is not necessarily a DNA mutation, but how the strands are coiled, which can give rise to how a person responds to a particular environmental stimuli - why does this teenager recoil at the sight of the ground below from an airplane, while the next child thinks it's the coolest thing and later becomes a pilot).  The huge thing about epigenetic therapy is that it would alter not only the way the body responds/develops, but also the person.  After a person goes through epigenetic therapy for something emotional rather than physiological, the question may become, "Will that person even remain the same person as before, or would we have someone who may or may not remember us in the same way, look at things entirely differently, i.e., that original person is gone, period?"  What if this epigenetics can be abused to create an army of office workers who show up on time, never complain about their routine, are afraid of confrontation, and have a very docile personality?  Other creations could be made by this method.
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Xirafel

Quote from: Mohini on November 06, 2016, 07:50:01 PM
This is huge, because it can mean that a significant portion of the population will becomes sterile, non-reproducing because the children will transition so early that they don't give their bodies a chance to produce sperm/eggs to bear children.
Children are a huge hassle and financial drain anyway. I would basically have to slave away for most of my life.
Additionally, this isn't really a problem. Not with stem cell research in the works.

Also, children aren't permitted to transition early because it's against the law in quite a few countries.
For the most part, I can see stem cell research becoming highly prominent once people get over the mind-set of God disapproving of it. God seems to disapprove of all progress from how I've seen people act.
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Naomi71

Wow, I never thought of that. I was born in 1971 and have cardiovacular disease, osteoporose (which is rare for a biological male) and obviously am transsexual. These were all mentioned in the list of DES related conditions I just read.


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AngieT

Quote from: DawnOday on November 06, 2016, 02:42:10 PM
It is this similarity that gives credence to what I have read about DES.  http://desaction.org where my body was formed on testosterone but my brain developed on massive doses of synthetic estrogen. There are approx. 1.5 million DES Sons and an equal number of DES daughters. Sons got sexual confusion and heart disease. Daughters got Cancer. It was all about the timing of the administration of the drug. If it was first administered in week 8 to 18 and your mother had a history of miscarriages, there is a possibility you may have been exposed. Symptoms include mis-formed genitals, late descending testicles, small penis. Congestive Heart Failure, diabetes, heart valve deformity.
I was a victim of DES exposure.  After coming out to family, I was told by my mom that she was assured that she was going to give birth to a girl, but due to high risk complication in the last few weeks before I was born, she was given DES to prevent miscarriage.  (Born in the mid 60's)  Of the things you listed, I was born with Swyer syndrome and gonadal dysgenesis with labial fusion. (amongst other ailments)  My parents were informed of my complex physical problems, but had ultimately opted to raise me male. (Born in a military hospital in Texas during the middle of the Vietnam war may have influenced their decision though)  Since then I've developed congestive heart failure, have suffered a major heart attack, have diabetes, and my current cardiologist is considering minor surgery to repair a large PDA that's causing circulatory difficulties.  Almost a perfect match for the symptoms you listed. 

Back around 2001-2003 there was a great DES Sons/Daughters group on Yahoo, but unfortunately that group no longer exists. 


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kelly_aus

I'm lucky in that my mother's medical records still exist and she was never prescribed DES or anything similar..  Her mother didn't recall taking anything pregnancy related.

And yet I'm a transsexual. I had normal hormone levels before, however, I did/do have some physical traits that some may label as feminine. DES clearly has no bearing on why I am trans.

DES is an answer for some.. But there are many of us who have no DES exposure and no exposure to anything similar.

Quote from: Mohini on November 06, 2016, 04:37:56 PM
What explains today's MTF transsexual children if not for DES?  Plastics in water bottles, water containers, pesticides with estrogenic properties?

A malfunctioning endocrine system in a pregnant woman is sufficient, it wouldn't need to be environmental. Trans people have been around longer than our ability to create such environmental factors.

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DawnOday

Quote from: AngieT on November 07, 2016, 01:15:25 PM
I was a victim of DES exposure.  After coming out to family, I was told by my mom that she was assured that she was going to give birth to a girl, but due to high risk complication in the last few weeks before I was born, she was given DES to prevent miscarriage.  (Born in the mid 60's)  Of the things you listed, I was born with Swyer syndrome and gonadal dysgenesis with labial fusion. (amongst other ailments)  My parents were informed of my complex physical problems, but had ultimately opted to raise me male. (Born in a military hospital in Texas during the middle of the Vietnam war may have influenced their decision though)  Since then I've developed congestive heart failure, have suffered a major heart attack, have diabetes, and my current cardiologist is considering minor surgery to repair a large PDA that's causing circulatory difficulties.  Almost a perfect match for the symptoms you listed. 

Back around 2001-2003 there was a great DES Sons/Daughters group on Yahoo, but unfortunately that group no longer exists.
First off, unless the drugs were administered in the first trimester it probably would not change your maturity. So maybe it was administered earlier than you thought. Maybe the doctors caught something early on. In an ironic twist the very symptoms that propagate the belief one may have been exposed is also the one thing that can keep you from getting the relief you seek. Heart disease I believed was preventing me from seeking transition, so I remained ignorant for 25 years. As to DES Girls. who got various cancers, the drug companies and hospitals settled lawsuits with payouts. Not so DES Sons because of proposed lawsuits being dismissed by the drug companies that had already paid out millions to the women. Add to that faulty religious dogma have conspired to limit research or even acknowledging that being Transgender may not be a choice.
Quote from: kelly_aus on November 07, 2016, 01:24:11 PM
I'm lucky in that my mother's medical records still exist and she was never prescribed DES or anything similar..  Her mother didn't recall taking anything pregnancy related.

And yet I'm a transsexual. I had normal hormone levels before, however, I did/do have some physical traits that some may label as feminine. DES clearly has no bearing on why I am trans.

DES is an answer for some.. But there are many of us who have no DES exposure and no exposure to anything similar.

A malfunctioning endocrine system in a pregnant woman is sufficient, it wouldn't need to be environmental. Trans people have been around longer than our ability to create such environmental factors.



Do you eat meat, gmo laced grains? If so you may have gotten the female hormones from the foods you eat. Now think about that milk your Mother gave you. Dairy's in my area are bragging about not having rBST in their products. Here is some information on your environment you may not know. And yes, I can almost guarantee you have been exposed to hormones not of your own making. http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/X6533E/X6533E01.htm
Here is an article that may explain it to you.
Dawn Oday

It just feels right   :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss:

If you have a a business or service that supports our community please submit for our Links Page.

First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



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Randi

Both groups are still there, but are hidden.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/des-trans/info

Quote from: AngieT on November 07, 2016, 01:15:25 PM
Back around 2001-2003 there was a great DES Sons/Daughters group on Yahoo, but unfortunately that group no longer exists.
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kelly_aus

Quote from: DawnOday on November 07, 2016, 02:06:28 PM
Do you eat meat, gmo laced grains? If so you may have gotten the female hormones from the foods you eat. Now think about that milk your Mother gave you. Dairy's in my area are bragging about not having rBST in their products. Here is some information on your environment you may not know. And yes, I can almost guarantee you have been exposed to hormones not of your own making. http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/X6533E/X6533E01.htm
Here is an article that may explain it to you.

My comments did not exclude environmental factors, yes, I'm sure in some cases they do play a part. My comments was really just intended to point out that an out of spec endocrine system was enough.

There's clearly an agenda at work in this thread and it's not one I agree with, so I'll bow out at this point. I understand the need for someone/something to blame, I'm just not sure that there always is something to blame.
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DawnOday

Not blaming anyone or anything. I am comfortable with my decision to transition. But, seven, eight months ago when I was having a breakdown just prior to what would have been my 40th anniversary, . I went to the therapist and we worked out the how. I came here to seek answers on why I would not fight for the love of my life. Any guy would love to be associated with her. Pretty, smart and a rockin hard body. Heck even I had a hard body back then. Wendy was my alpha and omega. By my third visit to the therapist it was decided because of my past I was more than likely transgender. Kristi wrote my letter and I was on my way. I came across the DES site and discovered how my symptoms dovetailed with the observed symptoms in DES affected persons. I had always blamed my mother because she was kind of weird and I thought I had Mommy issues. But no. I more than likely asked my Mother to dress me up in my sisters costumes, to which she obliged. The stage for what I was to become, was set and a lifetime of longing to be the other me was established. According to Kristi I had alienated my ex by ignoring her because I had another lover. Me. DES is just one possible scenario, but it does relieve me to know it was not her adultery that prompted our breakup. Or blaming my poor Mom. It's not an only explanation but it does merit study and the more people informed means a better cohort of possible research participants and might just be the breakthrough that gains us acceptance by the general population.  Knowledge is nothing to be afraid of. I am aware enough to understand your experience is yours and mine is mine. I was just putting it out there for general consumption. My point was to show that DES has been banned for miscarriages but has not been banned for meat processing.

Respectfully
Dawn
Dawn Oday

It just feels right   :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss:

If you have a a business or service that supports our community please submit for our Links Page.

First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



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HughE

Quote from: Mohini on November 06, 2016, 04:37:56 PM
What explains today's MTF transsexual children if not for DES?  Plastics in water bottles, water containers, pesticides with estrogenic properties?

There's a drug called hydroxyprogestrone caproate, that's in current, widespread use in many parts of the world in pregnancies where the mother has a history of recurrent premature birth, or who develops symptoms of threatened abortion during her pregnancy. From what I've read about its properties, I think there's a very good chance that biologically male babies exposed to it could end up MTF trans. Like DES, it's an artificial female hormone, and it's being given to pregnant women in doses that would have pronounced feminizing effects on an adult man, if he were to be given the same. There's a number of other pregnancy hormone treatments where the same thing applies too. It's also possible that some nonhormonal drugs that interfere with hormone metabolism (in particular epilepsy medicines), might be depressing testosterone levels in unborn male babies enough for them to end up with a feminized brain.

If one of these drugs can cause large numbers of people to end up trans without medical professionals realizing what's happening, that makes it much more likely that there are other drugs doing the same thing. That (aside from the sheer injustice of what's been done to us and people like us), is why it's so important that the word gets out about what happened with DES.
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KayXo

Hydroxyprogesterone caproate is a progestogen with similar properties to progesterone that is produced in high quantities during pregnancy. It does not have estrogenic effects, only progestogenic ones. As such, how could it induce feminization of the brain? Is there any evidence supporting your thoughts?
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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HughE

Quote from: KayXo on November 09, 2016, 08:40:35 PM
Hydroxyprogesterone caproate is a progestogen with similar properties to progesterone that is produced in high quantities during pregnancy. It does not have estrogenic effects, only progestogenic ones. As such, how could it induce feminization of the brain? Is there any evidence supporting your thoughts?
Well, more accurately, it could prevent masculinization of the brain taking place, by suppressing testosterone production.

People often seem to assume that, just because DES is a very powerful estrogen, it caused MTF transsexuality through estrogenic effects on brain development. I think it actually causes female brain development in male fetuses by shutting down testicular hormone production. This is due to the fact that male brain development (as with other aspects of sexual development) is driven by the action of androgenic hormones produced in the testicles (primarily testosterone and DHT), and without those hormones, development occurs as female instead. Although there are species differences, in primates, the sex you develop as appears to be entirely determined by androgen levels, and estrogens don't appear to play any significant role.

It's not actually the Y chromosome that causes a genetically male person to develop as male. All the Y chromosome does is cause the undifferentiated gonads to turn into testicles, it's the hormones produced by the testicles that actually drive male development. If, for whatever reason, the testicles fail to develop and produce their hormones, then a genetically male fetus will develop as female. Here's an example I found on youtube of someone this actually happened to:



The particular condition she has, Frazier's Syndrome, involves a mutation that has nothing to do with the X or Y chromosomes. What it does is to knock out a gene that is required in order for the undifferentiated gonads to turn into testicles or ovaries, and without that gene, they remain forever trapped in their undifferentiated state. Although she is genetically male and her Y chromosome is completely normal and fully functioning, her gonads remained undifferentiated and never turned into testicles. No testicular hormones were produced during her prenatal development, and because of that, she developed as female instead of male. You can see the results in that video. Provided the NHS didn't butcher her, she will have the full set of female internal organs too, including cervix, uterus and fallopian tubes.

In other words, it's the testicles and the hormones they produce that cause a fetus to develop as male, and without those hormones, development occurs as female instead.

Aside from the fact that they mimic female hormones, one interesting property both synthetic estrogens (such as DES) and "synthetic progesterone" (progestins such as hydroxyprogesterone caproate) have in common, is that if you give them to an adult man in a high enough dose, they induce a state of "chemical castration" - they shut down testicular hormone production so completely that it effectively ceases altogether, so the testicles might as well no longer be there as far as hormone production is concerned. The effect only continues for as long as the drug continues being administered though, once it's discontinued, the testicles resume producing testosterone.

Perhaps you can see what could happen to a male fetus who is exposed to these drugs in utero. By temporarily shutting down his testicular hormone production, it could result in him ending up in a situation where some parts of his prenatal development occurred as male, and some parts as female. That's what I think has happened with DES, and could be happening with hydroxyprogesterone caproate (and other similar progestin-based treatments).

It just so happens that, because of the way development occurs in the unborn child and the way these treatments tend to be prescribed, that you tend to get a high exposure during the time the brain is developing and a much smaller (or zero) exposure during the critical period for genital development, so they're tending to produce people with a relatively normal male appearance, and it's the brain that is ending up female instead.

With DES, I know for a fact that, under the standard treatment plan for miscarriage prevention devised by Drs George and Olive Smith, the doses being used were more than 10x higher than that required for total suppression of testosterone in adult men, throughout the second half of the pregnancy.

With hydroxprogesterone caproate, I couldn't find any examples of where it's been used on its own for testosterone suppression in adult men, however the doses that are being used during pregnancy look enormous, and I'm sure if you were to give the same to an adult man, he'd experience profound testosterone suppression. Progestins are highly effective as chemical castration agents (in fact, the most commonly used drug in the US for chemical castration of sex offenders is Depo Provera, a progestin).

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