"Non-Binary Gender Variant" as our official real life designation

[RebeccaFog]

Hi,

   We've been discussing using the phrase "Non-Binary Gender Variant" as our official designation in order to include all people who fall between or outside of the binary genders of female and male.
   I'm posting this poll in order to help us move forward on some projects such as the Wiki here at Susan's and the Wikipedia entry we've discussed.

   The point of this vote is simply to find out if it is agreeable to the majority (hopefully unanimous) of us whether we can start using the term Non-Binary Gender Variant amongst ourselves and outwardly to the world.
   Part of the idea is to eliminate halts in general discussions where participants may feel left out or else slighted by the use of other terms such as androgyne, bigender, genderqueer, and so on.  No one is required to use this term in ordinary conversation but it is recommended that it be used in place of the aforementioned terms when discussing umbrella concepts.  Our desire is to be entirely inclusive.

   I'm making it YES or NO with no undecideds.  If you are undecided, please consider yourself a NO.

   In the thread, people can ask questions and make points that will allow voters to change their votes.


I just thought of this and wrote it up fast, so I hope it makes sense and as always, I have no desire to offend anyone by using bad phrasing or mis-statements concerning my purpose.


Thanks,

Rebis

[Laurry]

All hail the mighty NBGVs!!
Tho some may give the hee-bee gee-bees
We gather here to make our stand
And open hearts across this land


Hey....what can I say, I was inspired (poorly)

......Laurry

[buttercup]

I'm with you Rebis, it sounds as inclusive as it could possibly be, you've got everything covered I think? 

All hail the mighty NBGVs!!
Tho some may give the hee-bee gee-bees
We gather here to make our stand
And open hearts across this land


Hey....what can I say, I was inspired (poorly)

......Laurry

Laurry, you're such a hoot!!     

[Pica Pica]

Horaay to Laurry and the NGBV's
Quirkier than late night CBGBs
Bending down and on our knees
Come and share a pot of peas.

- I was inspired by Laurry.

[Steph]

Not to pee on anyone's parade but while it may be OK to refer to ourselves using what ever term you see fit, Susan's is a support site serving all those who care to review the contents of the site.  We must still continue to use those definitions currently accepted that define/label the different groups that form our community, whether, TS, TV CD, Androgyne, IS etc.

We all have our own views on who or what we are and that's great, however, and I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, in the current Androgyne article the definition included is that which is presently universally accepted (Doesn't make it right).  What I will do is add to the article a section that will include "Other terms" used by members of the androgyne community to define themselves here at Susan's.

Please understand this is not meant as a slight towards the androgyne community, I would treat the other groups that are a part of Susan's the same way.

Steph

[RebeccaFog]

It's okay, Steph.

   Part of what we are doing here is trying to have a conversation where we don't slight someone within the community.

   Another part is creating terminology that will work in the real world amongst laypeople and professionals.  For instance, when I see my gender therapist next week, I can speak of being non-binary gender variant and I believe she'll know better what I mean than if I say androgyne or genderlost or something.

   Getting the term introduced is an important step.

[Shana A]

I voted yes. I've never really thought of androgyne as an umbrella term, I use it because it seems to fit me personally. For that matter, I still use transgender as an umbrella term, and include androgyne under the umbrella. Well, OK, I know, an androgyne would probably be spinning the umbrella, saying whee! it's raining If calling themselves androgyne doesn't work for someone else, and in the last year of postings, I can see many reasons for why it doesn't work for everyone, they shouldn't have to use it.

Mostly, I don't care what term we use, as long as everyone feels included and appreciated here.

y2g

[Kendall]

For source wise, I only found two exact uses so far. And honestly they probably came from the same source. Though I will also list some sources that use similar language to NBGV. Though it does not state a definition, though the defintion is something like the "one lies on a gender spectrum or in gender spheres outside of the normal binary genders."

I cant tell if it refers to gender in terms of Gender Identity, Gender Expression, Gender Roles, or Gender Performance or all of them.  What ever it means, it might mean "One whose Gender <identity, expression, roles, and or performances> lies  on a gemder spectrum or in gender spheres outside of the normal binary genders". Which would if it included such broad definition would be sufficient for me as an umbrella term.  And if it includes all of the labels or self defined persons feeling outside the gender-binary system, or not fitting into the "either just male or just female system".

I do not want to endorse the term, then later find out someone else is using it excluding others. But certainly we can decide to use that term ourselves on a personal level or a majority even. Yet be flexible and understanding of those that don't want to use it. Sorta just use a word like that just out of personal choice.

I will hold my vote for now, and do a quick email to learn more about the term. I am rational. I want to make sure such term is a sufficient definition first. Or if Emerald knows.


Exact Quotes:

"Androgyne" is synonymous to the more cumbersome "non-binary gender variant."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

Other names for androgyne (Greek for man/woman) are agendered, ambigendered, epicene, gender gifted, gender outlaw, intergendered (a term coined by intersex people), non-binary gender variant, nongendered, the third gender, and the fourth gender.

Androgyne Online Androgyne Essay http://androgyne.0catch.com/





Related or similar language:

The terms androgyny, intergender, bigender, multigender, third gender, neuter/neutrois/agender, and gender fluid may also be used to describe where one lies on a gender spectrum or in gender spheres outside of the normal binary genders.

Wikipedia Gender Binary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_binary

Non-Binary Gender: A system of viewing gender as having more than two options.

United Genders of the Universe Gender Glossary http://www.unitedgenders.org/links.html

Many survey participants said that they while thought the University as a whole was taking steps to address the
needs of GLB people, transgender and gender variant people were continually left out of the discussion.
...
This policystatement also negates the identities of gender non-conforming individuals who
may not choose to fully transition from a feminine to a masculine body or vice
versa.

queerTX.org
the queer hub of UT-Austin State of LGBTQ Affairs http://www.queertx.org/report/chapter4.pdf

Binary Gender System- A culturally/socially defined code of acceptable behaviors which teach that there are men and women, who are masculine and feminine, and that there is nothing outside of this system. Most popular discussion on gender assumes a binary gender system. Discussion of trans issues and identities, however, challenges a binary gender system and forces us to think of gender within a multi-gender system.

Queer-Straight Alliance Colorado College  Terms and Definitions http://www.coloradocollege.edu/students/QSA/terms-and-definitions.html

7[7] I use "gender-variant" (GV) to encompass the different racial, cultural, and class components of non-traditional genderidentity.

Alexander L. Lee†Nowhere to Go But Out: The Collision Between Transgender & Gender-Variant Prisoners and the Gender Binary in America's Prisons

Gender blenders, bi-gendered, androgynes and others - Not all transgender people fit neatly into the above categories. For some, such characterizations of gender and gender identity are more constraining than liberating. Gender blenders may or may not identify as one or the other in a binary gender system (i.e. either/or, male/female) and many times will assume a mixture of male and female dress and characteristics, combining elements of both.

Southern Arizona Gender Alliance - SAGA Gender Identity 101 http://sagatucson.org/saga/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=42&Itemid=94

[Attis]

Whee, so we're part of the alphabet soup too, huh?  > > >

[NickSister]

I like it. It is a very functional name in that it describes what it contains.

I would personaly still call myself androgyne, but I would fit within the group of people that have non-binary gender.

[Kaimialana]

I wouldn't want to alienate anyone.

NBGV is what I use, it works for me, but not necessarily anyone else.

[Kendall]

Since Androgyne Online is the main source of the info I sent Stephe a Email.

There is a vote at susan's about using Non-Binary Gender Variant as a umbrella term for "include all people who fall between or outside of the binary genders of female and male."

So far when doing a google search, only Wikipedia and Androgyne online came up that I could find using that termonology.

I was wondering if you know where it came from and if what they are voting on covers such terminology.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22263.0.html

The Response was

*I'm* the one who added it to Wikipedia, if that explains anything.
     I don't recall where I first heard the term, but I didn't make it up.

Stephe

Another Question I Emailed.

Specifically I was wondering if the definition "One whose Gender <identity, expression, roles, and or performances> lies  on a gender spectrum or in gender spheres outside of the normal binary genders" is near to how the term is being used.

Stephe's Response

I take non-binary gender variant to mean TG folks who are
not TS and not TV -- but really, I mean androgyne specifically

And an additional Stephe response

Transgender can be an umbrella term or refer to two specific
things, like Transgenderist/>-bleeped-< and Transsexual.
     Genderqueer can be an umbrella tuerm or refer to androgynes
and/or other third gender folks.
     Gender Variant can be an umbrella term like Transgender and
Genderqueer, or it can refer to androgynes and/or other third gender
folks.
     Non-binary Gender Variant means only one thing, really, and that
is androgyne.  Two-spirit fits the bill, too, as far as I'm concerned,
but not everyone is on the same page with this (especially in the case
of Native Americans, alas).  And neutrois and hijras sort of fit the
bill,
too.

Stephe

I voted "No" after reading this, prefering maybe gender variant or non-binary gender by themselves though I liked the name in the first place however after reading these emails, unless I hear a different definition, I would say no.

[Kaimialana]

Transgender can be an umbrella term or refer to two specific
things, like Transgenderist/>-bleeped-< and Transsexual.
     Genderqueer can be an umbrella tuerm or refer to androgynes
and/or other third gender folks.
     Gender Variant can be an umbrella term like Transgender and
Genderqueer, or it can refer to androgynes and/or other third gender
folks.
     Non-binary Gender Variant means only one thing, really, and that
is androgyne.  Two-spirit fits the bill, too, as far as I'm concerned,
but not everyone is on the same page with this (especially in the case
of Native Americans, alas).  And neutrois and hijras sort of fit the
bill,
too.

Stephe

All I have to say to this is: Thanks for making the site that I found first when I figured things out about myself (I thought I was the only one of me before finding Androgyne Online)

and secondly, I am not an androgyne, nor a neutrois, nor a two spirit (nor even a bigender for that matter) yet I call myself non-binary gender variant.


Don't presume to tell me what I am.

That is all.

Posted on: November 20, 2007, 09:46:54 PMActually, I'm done with this forum.

~Kai (out)

[Caroline]

Transgender can be an umbrella term or refer to two specific
things, like Transgenderist/>-bleeped-< and Transsexual.
     Genderqueer can be an umbrella tuerm or refer to androgynes
and/or other third gender folks.
     Gender Variant can be an umbrella term like Transgender and
Genderqueer, or it can refer to androgynes and/or other third gender
folks.
     Non-binary Gender Variant means only one thing, really, and that
is androgyne.  Two-spirit fits the bill, too, as far as I'm concerned,
but not everyone is on the same page with this (especially in the case
of Native Americans, alas).  And n and hijras sort of fit the
bill,
too.

How does adding 'non-binary' to 'gender variant' make it not an umbrella term?  I don't get this line of thinking :-/

[cindybc]

Hi Kaimialana
If your still around please get in touch with me by PM Thanks

Cindy



Posted on: November 21, 2007, 04:45:38 AMAs for "two-spirited" that term was used by the First Nations/Native Americans since time immemorial.  It was a title given to one who was referred to as a berdache, a word used by the early French settlers for a two-spirited person.  A two-spirited person had either a male, female, or intersexed body.  They were believed by their tribes to possess great medicine because they were in both the male and female world at the same time.  They were known as Shamans and healers by their tribes.

Alas, the Europeans in Ontario seem to have forgotten who was here first, giving two-spirited people places of honor while Europeans were burning witches at the stake.

For those in here from Canada, especially Ontario, does anyone remember Ipperwash?  Who shot Dudley George in the back?  I'll give you a hint:  it wasn't another First Nations person. 

I have Iroquois Metis status.  Anyone else here have that?  Let's talk, please!

Cindy

[Shana A]

Don't presume to tell me what I am.

That is all.

Posted on: November 20, 2007, 09:46:54 PMActually, I'm done with this forum.

~Kai (out)

Sorry you're leaving Kai, I appreciated your presence and input here.

y2g

[NickSister]

Transgender can be an umbrella term or refer to two specific
things, like Transgenderist/>-bleeped-< and Transsexual.
     Genderqueer can be an umbrella tuerm or refer to androgynes
and/or other third gender folks.
     Gender Variant can be an umbrella term like Transgender and
Genderqueer, or it can refer to androgynes and/or other third gender
folks.
     Non-binary Gender Variant means only one thing, really, and that
is androgyne.  Two-spirit fits the bill, too, as far as I'm concerned,
but not everyone is on the same page with this (especially in the case
of Native Americans, alas).  And neutrois and hijras sort of fit the
bill,
too.

How does adding 'non-binary' to 'gender variant' make it not an umbrella term?  I don't get this line of thinking :-/

Yeah, I wondered that myself. Though androgyne itself can be considered an umbrella term, especially the way we currently use it here.

[Pica Pica]

Don't presume to tell me what I am.

That is all.

Posted on: November 20, 2007, 09:46:54 PMActually, I'm done with this forum.

~Kai (out)

Sorry you're leaving Kai, I appreciated your presence and input here.

y2g

I can't understand why you're leaving when you obviously have opinions and ideas to contribute. If mistakes are being made, sound the warning.

[Seshatneferw]

Actually, I'm done with this forum.

Sigh. There are quite a few of us who will miss you, and this forum will be poorer if you leave us. Please reconsider. But if not, at least have our best wishes.

  Nfr

[Attis]

I changed my vote to no based on consideration of the term. First, it's nice to want to make an umbrella term for all sorts of people, but what has to be understood that such terms often fail to gain ground even in some scientific/sociology circles, so I don't expect the term to become a common vernacular for any one of us. Second, it's not economical to use an acronym in every case, and this is one of them. People like terms that encapsulate the whole of the subject or category involved, androgyne and genderqueer to varying degrees does this, so why reinvent the wheel on this one? And finally, third, acronyms sometimes wind up dehumanizing the subject entirely, which is good for making an objective analysis, but not good for making our presence known outside the scientific community. People will just think, "Huh, what a strange concept" and move along, instead of thinking, "Wow, I never thought of gender being like that before." It's better to grab onto an economical term that has the least amount of disparaging use, and doesn't dehumanize us: Genderqueer and androgyne both seem to cover that. NBGV will probably be useful in scientific/scholarly papers, but not for common usage.

-- Brede